Today's Message Index:
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0. 12:11 AM - Contributions Down By 17%... (Matt Dralle)
1. 03:01 PM - Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning (flylightning)
2. 08:06 PM - Re: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning (Steve Sundquist)
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Subject: | Contributions Down By 17%... |
Dear Listers,
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Message 1
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Subject: | Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
Group,
Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel
with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant
we had used in earlier airframes.
We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due
to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of
auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of
the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a
known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be
deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of
the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol,
ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol
blend.
After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other
aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there
is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with
similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2
tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others
a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru
here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks
were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion
of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements
imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in
the winter months than summer.
On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use
of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including
heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves
and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no
ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable
explanation for this to occur.
We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort
to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that
the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it.
The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the
kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If
any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the
change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank.
If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of
100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases
have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed
tanks.
I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the
Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going
on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for
its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is
possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don't use it.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
Nick,
Would it be possible to put the KBS product on top of the Kreem? If
there has never been any fuel in the tanks would it bond to the Kreem
and protect it from the auto fuel?
Thanks,
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
On 11/22/2010 2:58 PM, flylightning wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto
> fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel
> tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes.
>
> We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant
> issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related
> to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and
> kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with
> ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol
> added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having
> said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being
> used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol,
> and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend.
>
> After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically
> other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe
> that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of
> aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same
> problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases
> using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case
> with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank
> sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with
> a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives
> used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the
> EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the
> winter months than summer.
>
> On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving
> the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system
> including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed
> up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using
> auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not
> old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur.
>
> We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an
> effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be
> clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and
> additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating
> systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of
> an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers
> we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy
> enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its
> Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
>
> Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the
> use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel.
> And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels
> in the KBS sealed tanks.
>
> I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the
> Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is
> going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of
> auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with
> answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have
> to say don't use it.
>
> Nick Otterback
>
> Arion Aircraft, LLC
>
> *
>
> *
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