---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/22/10: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:11 AM - Contributions Down By 17%... (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:01 PM - Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning (flylightning) 2. 08:06 PM - Re: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning (Steve Sundquist) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:57 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Lightning-List: Contributions Down By 17%... Dear Listers, As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind last year at this time by roughly 17%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply to cover my operating costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid. I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet connection is a commercial-grade, T1 connection with public address space. I also maintain a full backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the event of a server crash or worse, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive data could be restored onto a new server in a matter of hours. All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I ask that members that feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Wite, you can use a credit card, Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 USA Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:38 PM PST US From: "flylightning" Subject: Lightning-List: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning Group, Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes. We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend. After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the winter months than summer. On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur. We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system. Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed tanks. I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don't use it. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft, LLC ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:15 PM PST US From: Steve Sundquist Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning Nick, Would it be possible to put the KBS product on top of the Kreem? If there has never been any fuel in the tanks would it bond to the Kreem and protect it from the auto fuel? Thanks, Steve Sundquist Kit #48 On 11/22/2010 2:58 PM, flylightning wrote: > > Group, > > Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto > fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel > tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes. > > We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant > issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related > to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and > kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with > ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol > added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having > said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being > used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, > and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend. > > After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically > other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe > that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of > aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same > problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases > using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case > with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank > sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with > a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives > used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the > EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the > winter months than summer. > > On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving > the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system > including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed > up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using > auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not > old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur. > > We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an > effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be > clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and > additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating > systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of > an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers > we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy > enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its > Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system. > > Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the > use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. > And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels > in the KBS sealed tanks. > > I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the > Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is > going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of > auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with > answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have > to say don't use it. > > Nick Otterback > > Arion Aircraft, LLC > > * > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.