---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/14/11: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:30 AM - Re: Matco Brakes and Wheels (selwyn) 2. 08:04 AM - Matco wheels and brakes (Bernard Melendez, Jr.) 3. 10:14 AM - MATCO Wheels (Mark Stauffer) 4. 10:29 AM - Re: Matco wheels and brakes (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 5. 12:03 PM - Re: Matco wheels and brakes (Bernard Melendez, Jr.) 6. 06:40 PM - Re: MATCO Wheels (EAFerguson@AOL.COM) 7. 07:37 PM - Re: MATCO Wheels (Dave Mccorquodale) 8. 09:13 PM - Re: MATCO Wheels (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:26 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Matco Brakes and Wheels From: "selwyn" OK, so where on the Arion site would I find that advice from Matco? Not that it would have made any difference in this case. To my mind the more important point from my experience is the problems with the disc attachment setscrews. Advice provided from Matco and Arion has been shown to be inaccurate, the effect can be difficult to detect, the consequences may be serious and my advice is that owners should check their own installations. -------- Cheers, Selwyn Kit 66 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333828#333828 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:57 AM PST US From: "Bernard Melendez, Jr." Subject: Lightning-List: Matco wheels and brakes Having a wheel come unglued while landing or on take off and possibly turning your shiny Lightning into fiberglass splinters can be embarrassing, to put it mildly. This is an issue that should be addressed and solution(s) found to correct this problem. Would we be better off using different wheels and brakes like Cleveland's, for example? Is that a viable solution, and could they be fitted or would the axle and wheel attach need to be redesigned for that system, or another better system? In any event, responsible people should take the lead and address this possible defect in design and come up with a reasonable solution, in my humble opinion. Bernardo Melendez, Kit #110 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:18 AM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Lightning-List: MATCO Wheels There seems to be a lot being said right now about the MATCO wheels that are supplied with the Lightning kit. Regarding the wheel half through bolts (MATCO part number: SHCS .25 - 20 x 1.25 SHCS), we have had three instances, four now with Selwyn, that I know of where the through bolt has broken. After we experienced it with our own factory demonstrator (instance #2) I contacted George Happ, owner of MATCO, and discussed it with him. He was quite certain that it was a case of over or under torque on the nut. I learned from George that as a wheel rotates the stresses on the bolt are greater or lesser depending at which point the wheel is in it's 360 degrees of rotation. You may have already known that but I did not and found it very interesting. That is why he stresses correct torque of the nut. The correct torque value for this nut per MATCO is 45.6 INCH pounds. This torque value is readily available on MATCO's website under: Technical Support > Technical Manuals and Service Bulletins > General Wheel and Brake Information. As you can imagine 45.6 INCH pounds is not a whole lot of torque and it would be very easy to over torque these bolts if not done properly with a calibrated torque wrench. Ever since we started ensuring all of our wheels were assembled using the correct torque values we have not experience another through bolt failure. Regarding the bolts holding the brake discs to the wheel. As Selwyn stated Buz included MATCO Service Bulletin SVC062410 that addressed the problem with the early use of the Nord lock washers. I just want to make clear that on the next page of the newsletter (pg 42) there is a note from me to Buz with a clarification to the Service Bulletin. It states: "A bit of clarification for the SB. The SB is mandatory for any customer that has the Nord-Lock washer with button head screws. If a customer has Allen head cap screws that are safety wired to the disc AND they have not experienced any problems in the past then they DO NOT have to comply with this SB. If a customer with Allen head cap screws has had problems in the past (I know of a couple) then they can contact MATCO and take advantage of the SB." That was written by me June of last year. Selwyn says he assembled his wheels correctly and I take him at his word. With that being said I have no other explanation why his through bolt broke. My suggestion is to contact George at MATCO and see what his thoughts are on the matter. I believe that MATCO manufactures a quality product and when they have found an issue, i.e. the SB, they have worked with us to solve the problem. Best regards, Mark Mark Stauffer Production Manager Arion Aircraft 2842 Hwy 231 North Shelbyville, TN 37160 (931) 680-1781 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:20 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Matco wheels and brakes In a message dated 3/14/2011 11:05:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, n45bm@yahoo.com writes: Having a wheel come unglued while landing or on take off and possibly turning your shiny Lightning into fiberglass splinters can be embarrassing, to put it mildly. This is an issue that should be addressed and solution(s) found to correct this problem. Would we be better off using different wheels and brakes like Cleveland's, for example? Is that a viable solution, and could they be fitted or would the axle and wheel attach need to be redesigned for that system, or another better system? In any event, responsible people should take the lead and address this possible defect in design and come up with a reasonable solution, in my humble opinion. Bernardo Melendez, Kit #110 What design defect? Reasonable people should not overtighten or undertighten the screws. The Matcos are the lightest, simplest, best supported and most economical brake systems out there. Only a couple people have had problems and they were addressed. The brakes you were shipped in your kit were updated to deal with the problem. As long as you install them correctly , you should be fine. Doug Koenigsberg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:32 PM PST US From: "Bernard Melendez, Jr." Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Matco wheels and brakes Doug, I have not heard of other brands of aircraft wheels having similar problems . And I addressed it as a "possible" defect, not as a definitive defect. My apologies if I ruffled some feathers. I was merely inquiring about other wheel brand possibilities and/or changes that could be made to improve the application. Again, as I have not reached this stage of my build, it is not an issue for me...yet. Nor am I questioning that "Matcos are the lightest, simplest, be st supported and most economical brake systems out there", though that may be open for debate. My questions were meant to be thought-provoking and to lead others to consi der this issue or other options. Regards, Bernardo Melendez --- On Mon, 3/14/11, Kayberg@AOL.COM wrote: From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Matco wheels and brakes =0A=0A =0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 3/14/2011 11:05:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =0An45bm@yahoo.com writes:=0A=0A =0A =0A =0A Having a wh eel come unglued while landing or on take off =0A and possibly turni ng your shiny Lightning into fiberglass splinters can =0A be embarra ssing, to put it mildly. This is an issue that should be =0A address ed and solution(s) found to correct this problem. Would we be =0A better off using different wheels and brakes like Cl eveland's, for =0A example? Is that a viable solution, and could the y be fitted or would =0A the axle and wheel attach need to be redesi gned for that system, or =0A another better system? In any event, responsible people should take =0A the lead and addres s this possible defect in design and come up with a =0A reasonable s olution, in my humble opinion. Bernardo Melendez, Kit =0A #110 =0A=0A-=0AWhat design defect?=0A-=0AReasonable people should not overti ghten or undertighten the =0Ascrews.-- The Matcos are the lightest, sim plest, best supported and =0Amost economical brake systems out there.-- -=0A-=0AOnly a couple people have had problems and they were addressed. - The =0Abrakes you were shipped in your kit were updated to deal with th e =0Aproblem.-- As long as you install them correctly , you should be =0Afine.=0A-=0ADoug Koenigsberg=0A-=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:20 PM PST US From: EAFerguson@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: MATCO Wheels In a message dated 3/14/2011 1:14:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark@flylightning.net writes: SHCS .25 - 20 x 1.25 SHCS Mark et al. Please translate the SHCS code. Is this a bolt grade? Is it an AN bolt? The listed torque sounds low for a 1/4" bolt. BTW, I have had no problems with mine at 350 hours and 4 tire changes, but I think next annual I might change them for new and of course use the torque wrench to tighten. Earl ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:04 PM PST US From: "Dave Mccorquodale" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: MATCO Wheels I have 700 hrs and 4 tire changes and should also start the torque wrench thing. These guys should have had Esqual brakes and rims. Matco has been the greatest and George is so cool and DIRECT on how to fix it. My thought is how bad are their landings Esqual 167DM Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: EAFerguson@AOL.COM To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: MATCO Wheels In a message dated 3/14/2011 1:14:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mark@flylightning.net writes: SHCS .25 - 20 x 1.25 SHCS Mark et al. Please translate the SHCS code. Is this a bolt grade? Is it an AN bolt? The listed torque sounds low for a 1/4" bolt. BTW, I have had no problems with mine at 350 hours and 4 tire changes, but I think next annual I might change them for new and of course use the torque wrench to tighten. Earl ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:35 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: MATCO Wheels 720 + hours on my highly modified Esqual with lots of Lightning parts (including the wheels and brakes) and I think three tire changes so far. I reversed the tires on the mains at 200 to 250 hours and then put on new tires at 500 hours. Just recently at the annual (about 720 hours) I reversed the tires again. The reason for reversing the tires on the mains is to equalize the tire wear caused by some toe in. The outside edges wear faster than the insides. Without doing this I couldn't get 500 hours on a set of main gear tires. Up until the recent annual I had not used a torque wrench, but didn't really cramp down on the wheel bolts. Also, my wheels have the older safety wired screws to hold the brake disk on - no problems here either. Blue Skies, Buz In a message dated 3/14/2011 10:37:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corky@hbci.com writes: I have 700 hrs and 4 tire changes and should also start the torque wrench thing. These guys should have had Esqual brakes and rims. Matco has been the greatest and George is so cool and DIRECT on how to fix it. My thought is how bad are their landings Esqual 167DM Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: _EAFerguson@AOL.COM_ (mailto:EAFerguson@AOL.COM) Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: MATCO Wheels In a message dated 3/14/2011 1:14:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _mark@flylightning.net_ (mailto:mark@flylightning.net) writes: SHCS .25 - 20 x 1.25 SHCS Mark et al. Please translate the SHCS code. Is this a bolt grade? Is it an AN bolt? The listed torque sounds low for a 1/4" bolt. BTW, I have had no problems with mine at 350 hours and 4 tire changes, but I think next annual I might change them for new and of course use the torque wrench to tighten. 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