Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:26 AM - Re: Lightning-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/18/11 (J Dupont)
2. 12:43 PM - Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 (...)
3. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 (Mefford, Walt)
4. 01:05 PM - Re: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 (Maxim Voronin)
5. 01:25 PM - reply (FamilyGage@AOL.COM)
6. 03:09 PM - Re: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 (nick)
7. 03:51 PM - Troll (EAFerguson@AOL.COM)
8. 09:37 PM - Re: Troll (mark@flylightning.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/18/11 |
You are missing a very important part of the registration information. The FAA
requires that the aircraft does not exceed 120 knots at see level . The FAA
is well aware that the same aircraft can have a faster true ground speed at altitude
and they were fine with it when they made the rules.
See page 142 of this FAA document for confirmation of the at see level thing.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/77a132602a4e1f9a862576b3005d253d/$FILE/Order%208130.2F%20with%20change%205%20inc.pdf
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352760#352760
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial
braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and
was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some
(perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's
specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP
eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that?
If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the
typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You
may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that
is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest
(although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by
some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard
Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum
sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or
ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of
not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea
level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use
of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the
aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of
gravity
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and
documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be
ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered),
the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you...
ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the
website "specifications" page
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp @ 3300 rpm continuous
=============================
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car
salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry
denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers
better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly
tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the
maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them
for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their website now.
But in response to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA
manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade.
They will... on the identical production line engine... at the request of
the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous
rpm of 2850 which with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent
speed mods allows many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test
flown just under the 120K Vh @2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next
door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now.
And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max
continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less?
Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and
instrument markings.
G'luck.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
Do you even own a plane?
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ...
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial br
aggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and
was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some (pe
rraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's specific
s. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP eligib
le or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that? If an
ything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the typical Esq
ual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You may have
been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that is either
irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest (al
though there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by some
of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard Esqu
al with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum sustain
ed level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or ethically ope
rated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) o
f not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea
level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use
of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircr
aft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravi
ty
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and document
ed for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be ignored b
y evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered), the engin
e manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you... ANY of y
ou?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the website "spec
ifications" page
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp @ 3300 rpm continuous
====
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car sa
lesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry denunc
iations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers better
be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly tolerances, and
operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the maximum continuou
s to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them for serial numbe
rs affected) and still display that on their website now. But in response
to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA manufacturers three
years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade. They will... on the
identical production line engine... at the request of the buyer affix a da
taplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous rpm of 2850 which
with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent speed mods allow
s many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test flown just und
er the 120K Vh @2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next d
oor to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now. An
d if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max continuo
us? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less? Maybe.
Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and instrument mar
kings.
G'luck.
________________________________
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the s
ole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, p
lease be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this e-
mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in e
rror, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
I don't think he does.
Furthermore, man is set in his beliefs. Nothing can shake them. Attached is
a picture of a well known S-LSA airplane that shows and flies at the major
airshows with a red arrow pointing to the placarded RPM limitations, the
only reason for which, is to stay legal. You would think that FAA voice the
concerns if there were any, right? Apparently not, according to the man, who
won't even post his name.
Best regards,
Max
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Mefford, Walt <walt.mefford@garmin.com>wrote:
> Do you even own a plane?****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *...
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:40 PM
> *To:* lightning-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS****
>
> ** **
>
> It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".****
>
> ** **
>
> 1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2****
>
> ** **
>
> 2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial
> braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and
> was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology. ****
>
> ** **
>
> 3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some
> (perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's
> specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP
> eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that?
> If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the
> typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You
> may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that
> is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity. ****
>
> ** **
>
> "At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"****
>
> ** **
>
> This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest
> (although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by
> some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard
> Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum
> sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or
> ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot****
>
> ** **
>
> FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible =****
>
> (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH)
> of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea
> level.****
>
> (4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use
> of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the
> aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of
> gravity ****
>
> ** **
>
> Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and
> documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be
> ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered),
> the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you...
> ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the
> website "specifications" page =****
>
> Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp @ 3300 rpm continuous****
>
> ** **
>
> ==============================****
>
> ** **
>
> <<<POST SCRIPT>>>****
>
> IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car
> salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry
> denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers
> better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly
> tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the
> maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them
> for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their website now.
> But in response to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA
> manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade.
> They will... on the identical production line engine... at the request of
> the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous
> rpm of 2850 which with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent
> speed mods allows many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test
> flown just under the 120K Vh @2850. ****
>
> ** **
>
> If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next
> door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now.
> And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max
> continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less?
> Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and
> instrument markings.****
>
> ** **
>
> G'luck.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> =======================**** p; - The Lightning-List Email Forum -****avigator
to browse
> **** ist Un/Subscription,**** Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,**** :p>** p://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List****======================
> **** p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -**** via the Web Forums!**** p://
> forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com****======================
> **** p; - List Contribution Web Site -**** support!****p;
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> **** p://www.matronics.com/contribution">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution**** =======================****
>
> * *
>
>
> ------------------------------
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the
> sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient,
> please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this
> e-mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in
> error, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation.
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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_avn100@@aol.com_ (mailto:avn100@@aol.com) Anomalous and not even
signed. I listed my name and phone #. This person only listed his vile and
demeaning remarks.
Matronics is not the correct venue to make personal charges of being
dishonest and a crook. awn100 is still free to call me at any time.
I have flown for over 50 years without a violation. Several years ago I
had a heart attack, and was forced to sell my long time Yak-52W. In T-A-P I
saw an Esqual VM-1 Sport for sale. The builder lived only a short
distance away.
He showed me the builder logs which met all of the Light Sport criteria.
He purchased the Esqual kit from Nick, and attended one of the factory
builder assist sessions. I had no reason to doubt that the Esqual met all of
the Light Sport requirements.
Would like to see an Esqual, without extensive modifications, reach your
165 mph. I have had two wonderful years flying the Esqual.
The log book shows GW at 1250 lbs. Normal cruise is 2,850 rph, and on an
100 nm race, had never exceeded 113 knots. Can run the engine at 3,000 rpm
and get 125 knots.
You are totally out of line with your undocumented personal charges. Next
time, don't debase yourself with such ungentlemanly verbiage.
Ray Gage
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
My angry denunciations of your fictional concerns/ contributions are
well justified and seated in truth.
First for such an expert in the field of Lightning's or esqual's to this
date you have never signed a Name, or the plane you may fly, maybe a
serial number or n number of your Lightning, LS-1, or esqual would be
helpful. However a doubt you will or can for that matter.
Secondly your wisdom on the matter of a 3300L data plate is misplaced.
Yes you can in-fact receive a data plate for the engine declaring a max
continuous power setting of 2850rpm. This is only by request to Jabiru
pty directly, they just don't slap them on, or hand them out. Your old
data plate is returned to Jabiru Pty with a letter requesting the 3300L
data tag, and the engine will not be operated above 2850 for more than
15 minutes. But this is only for engines used by homebuilders who did
not build the engine. A builder of an experimental aircraft wishing to
meet light sport, must conform to the FAR's not the ASTM standards.
Therefore they must use the engine manufacturer's limitations for max
continuous power, hence the use of the 3300L engine in some homebuilts.
This is where the disconnect for you comes in to play.
The Manufacturer of an SLSA submits with each aircraft an 8130-15, or
"Manufacturers Statement of Compliance" for each aircraft produced.
On this form the Manufacturer references ASTM standards and or FAA
regulations to which the aircraft is produced and meets the rule.
Of these is the need to define the aircraft as a whole, set design
limitations, have a compliant POH, Maintenance Manual, Quality assurance
program and so forth.
It is in the area of defining ones aircraft and its limitations, that
allows a manufacturer to set the limitations of everything about the
aircraft including the engine.
We are the Manufacturer of the aircraft as a whole, we are responsible
for its continued airworthiness, and the safety monitoring of that
aircraft for its life span.
The Manufacturer of the engine, Jabiru PTY LTD does not sign nor submit
any such documentation for the installation of its engine in any
aircraft, but that the engine's design and manufacturer meets the
Requirements of ASTM F2339.
In Short the Manufacturer of an SLSA aircraft can set the operational
limitations of an engine not manufactured by them, because by definition
the manufacturer is responsible for the Aircraft as a Whole thru the
compliance requirements of the ASTM.
The Builder of an experimental aircraft is subject only to the
requirements of the FARs. A builder can not use the ASTM standards as
justification to meet the FARs. This is why a builder must use the
engine manufacturer's limitations.
If you would care to be corrected further be my guest and type away. But
I would suggest that until than, go out and Start an SLSA production
facility it might shed some light on your fictional concerns.
Since you are not willing to sign a name to your posts, than it is the
duty of your fellow wingmen here to give a name to you, just like in the
military right?
I dub thee,
"Standup Philosopher"
Good Day.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft
Builder of N233AL, N323AL, N324AL, N327AL, N106AL.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ...
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:40 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial
braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation
(and was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some
(perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's
specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it
was SP eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to
mean that? If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster
than the typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am
simpatico. You may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a
typo or a claim that is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains
credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest
(although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown
by some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a
standard Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its
maximum sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be
legally or ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited
Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power
(VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric
conditions at sea level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the
use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the
aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center
of gravity
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and
documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should
be ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are
considered), the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from
a kit did you... ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those
currently shown on the website "specifications" page
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp @ 3300 rpm continuous
=============================
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car
salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry
denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS
buyers better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly
tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased
the maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or
with them for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their
website now. But in response to howls of protest from the increasing
number of LSA manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the
lying sham parade. They will... on the identical production line
engine... at the request of the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a
"3300L" with a maximum continuous rpm of 2850 which with a finely
pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent speed mods allows many
aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test flown just under
the 120K Vh @2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living
next door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way
now. And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm
max continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible.
Less? Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards,
and instrument markings.
G'luck.
Message 7
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In a message dated 9/20/2011 4:05:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
voroninmax@gmail.com writes:
From: _owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com_
(mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com)
[mailto:_owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of ...
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
Would the List admin please ban this and stop forwarding his rants to the
list.
Thanks,
Earl
Message 8
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Sorry Earl,
This list doesn't censor like other lists (such as the failed attempt of
the poster to start a Yahoo based group). He has the right to spew as much
bullshit as he wants. It's the right that you and I served the majority of
our lives for to maintain whether we agree or not. It's our duty to filter
through the diatribe based on our own knowledge and experience and respond
from there.
Best regards,
Mark
>
> In a message dated 9/20/2011 4:05:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> voroninmax@gmail.com writes:
>
>
> From: _owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com_
> (mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com)
> [mailto:_owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com_
> (mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com) ] On Behalf Of ...
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:40 PM
> To: _lightning-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com)
> Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
>
>
> Would the List admin please ban this and stop forwarding his rants to the
> list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Earl
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