---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/07/12: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:41 AM - Re: 3300 Jab engine (Paul Whetham) 2. 04:02 AM - Re: 3300 Jab engine (Paul Whetham) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Lightning-List: 3300 Jab engine From: Paul Whetham Hi Ken, Thanks for your input and your comments are those expressed by most who replied. I think I will follow your lead and do the same. Regards, Paul On 07/06/2012, at 3:50 AM, Ken Bailey wrote: > > I have the 3300 installed in an experimental Jabiru J450, built to plans. In 400 hours, I have not had any cooling issues at all. I live in Texas, where 95-100 degree days are common in the summer. I often fly with 3 passengers, close to gross as well. I tend to agree that this is a problem for installations that don't follow the factory instructions. I'm currently building a lightning as well, and I do not expect to have issues firewall forward, but I plan to install per factory examples. > > Ken Bailey > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 12:29 PM, "Mark Stauffer" wrote: > >> >> I would like to weigh in on this for a moment. I am the Production Manager >> for Arion Aircraft and Jabiru USA and I have well over 200 hours in over a >> dozen different customer and factory built Lightning's and a handful of >> Jabiru J-230's. I also have a Jabiru 3300 in my Zenith 601XL. I can honestly >> state that I have not experienced an overheating issue with these aircraft >> and do not see any reason to install another system that will cost several >> more thousand dollars, add more weight and add another point of failure. >> >> We have hot days in Tennessee as well with temperatures in the mid 90's (35 >> C). In my operation of these aircraft "IF" I see a CHT in the 350 degree >> range I simply lower the nose and reduce my rate of climb a bit (from say >> 1000 fpm to 800 fpm in the Lightning). Please note that the Jabiru manual >> allows operation at a temperature of 392 (200 C) for up to five minutes and >> the maximum cruise CHT allowed is 356 (180 C). Why do I lower the nose in >> the 360 degree range with the Jabiru? I guess it's from old habits with the >> old solid lifter engine that had a max CHT of 352. This is also the same way >> I used to fly my Cherokee with a Lycoming O-320/160 and how I was taught >> flying C-172, if the CHT got warm on climb out then I lowered the nose. In >> cruise the highest CHT is usually in the very low 300's such as 305 - 310. >> >> I stand by the statement that if the Jabiru engine is installed in a >> properly designed firewall forward package (such as the Lightning) you will >> not see an overheating problem thus negating the need for an expensive >> solution looking for a problem. >> >> How many Jabiru engines with Rotech LCH have reached 1000 hours to date? How >> many have reached 2000 hours? How can a company make a claim of their >> product ensuring the engine reaches TBO when they haven't even seen it for >> themselves! After 12 years of selling engines in the US, Jabiru USA is just >> now starting to see some 1000 hour top overhauls. It's taken 12 years to get >> to this point. It takes 125 days running an engine 8 hours a day to reach >> 1000 hours. Has Rotech done this? Also, I am certain I can pull apart a >> Jabiru engine in a Lightning that is "approaching 80 hours" and find no wear >> as well. >> >> I'm sure the Rotech LCH does reduce the CHT as they claim but the big >> question is "is it necessary". In the Lightning, it is an emphatic NO. >> >> I have close to a dozen Lightning owners in Florida and a few in the Arizona >> area, both of which can get pretty hot. I hope they will add their candid >> comments about their real world experiences to this discussion. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Mark >> >> Mark Stauffer >> Production Manager >> Arion Aircraft, LLC >> Jabiru USA, LLC >> 2842 Highway 231 North >> Shelbyville, TN 37160 >> (931) 680-1781 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:23 AM PST US From: Paul Whetham Subject: Re: Lightning-List: 3300 Jab engine Hi Lynn, Thanks for you input, it follows what most others have said. When the time comes I'll do what ever the factory suggests. I have seen your plane in the newsletters, very nice, can't wait to be in the same situation. Having trouble selling current plane in Australia, everything sells at a price so may have to keep lowering the price. Regards, Paul On 07/06/2012, at 9:14 AM, IFLYSMODEL@AOL.COM wrote: > Hey Paul: I have limited knowledge on the ROTEC water cooled heads. However, I do have some experience with the Lightning aircraft and Arion aircraft Inc. You have made the right decision about which airplane to build and where to build it. Those guys know what they are doing. I would also recommend having Nick fly the first flights and offer/make any corrections that might possibly be needed. > I live in central Florida and the temperatures routinely exceed 30 degrees C on most summer days. I would much rather have an air conditioned cockpit than liquid cooled cylinder heads. I only have about 350+ hours on my Lightning, but have never had a problem with high cylinder head temps. I have my CHT probes placed in the center hole between the spark plugs (which others have reported to read about 60-70 degrees higher than the spark plug location) and I have never seen CHT's above 330 degrees. The Arion outfit has the cooling issues nailed. > Lynn Nelsen > > In a message dated 6/6/2012 7:06:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, p.whetham@bigpond.com writes: > > I am in the process of selling current aircraft and purchasing a Lightning which I would do through the builder assist at Shelbyville. > I am retired and aged 66, have done extensive flying around Australia, US and Canada. > My future flying will be restricted to Australia and I love to fly in the north where ambient temps are 30+ > With regard to the Jab 3300 engine which Arion use I am concerned about the lack of factory doctrine or detail to control the CHT and EGT's. > I am forever googling finding blogs whereby pilots are spending their time and I feel IN expertise in trying to redirect air flow to minimise the CHT problem. > For the inexperienced, this means that they may get a few 100 hours of satisfactory flying before having major engine and consequently safety problems. > All these backyard mechanics are spending time trying to modify cowling etc with each one getting different results - some may be happy due to cooler geographical location but the ones in hotter climates seem to have no answer. > My current aircraft is a 1979 Arrow and I have circumnavigated Australia four times plus desert crossings etc. > The tried and proven Lycoming air ducting has never let me down even on the hottest of days and no matter what demands I have put on the engine. > My concern in dropping down to LSA and the Jab3300 engine is that I would like to have piece of mind when I take off (no matter what the day) is that I have an engine running where by I don't have to overly worry about > CHT and EGT even though they would be monitored and the ambient temp of the day. > I have studied the Rotax and whilst water cooled am not happy with the high RPM to deliver HP. > In Australia there is a company called ROTEC that appears to have done a lot to improve the Jab engine and I don't know why Jabiru has not formed an alliance to combine the technology and end up with a great product.. > They have manufactured Water cooled heads that are inter-changeable with the current Jab head. All the CHT,EGT and Oil Temps are reduced to a normal operating situation without the need to muck around with air cowlings etc, throw them away. > You don't have to worry about retorking heads, valves etc all operate in normal temps and your engine I feel will achieve the 2000 hr TBO. I realise that I am reliant on a water pump and to that end would carry a spare. > They also offer an interchangeable Alternator that will produce 45 amps at any speed and an Electronic ignition system which all read very well and a TBI fuel injection system which replaces the troublesome Bing Carby. > My apologies for this long blog but I would really love to hear everyones thoughts re the above, especially from those who have tried any of them. > To my way of thinking, I would rather spend the extra dollars initially (retired) to have piece of mind that my wife and I will be safe on long trips whilst circumnavigating =========== ============ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.