Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Thoughts and reasons for the Evoution of a Design. (Nick Otterback)
2. 02:48 PM - Thoughts on tie downs (Bill Strahan)
3. 03:08 PM - Re: Thoughts on tie downs (Bill Strahan)
4. 04:02 PM - Re: Thoughts on tie downs (Bernard Melendez, Jr.)
5. 04:06 PM - Tail tie-downs (Bernard Melendez, Jr.)
6. 06:23 PM - Re: Tail tie-downs (Bill Strahan)
7. 07:25 PM - Re: Thoughts on tie downs (n5pb@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts and reasons for the Evoution of a Design. |
Selwyn,
I will answer the questions by point asked for simplicity.
1. yes some run out because the CG is forward when single pilot or low fuel,
and the trim tab size is smaller to keep trailing edge weight down. A
better way to look at it is that with the elevator being more effective with
the large stab the tab doesn't have to work as hard, so I guess yes less
trim force. Although is requires more trim changes, ie from climb to cruise
to landing than before, the tab is more effective.
2. We did not change the gearing. We changed the stops. So I can post some
pictures of what we did. But we set full up travel with the stick full up
stop at about 15 degrees. Than build a new down stop that limits to 15
degrees down. The stick movement stays relatively the same as before making
it less sensitive.
3. Yes it should be more effective with the short wing. The lower aspect
ratio has less pitching moment so the stabilizing effect should be better,
although I have yet to fly one with short wing and a MK2 tail. If no one
else does we should know how this works in a few months here.
One other topic from an earlier email. The Stick free stability is very
good. That is what Marc Cook from kitplanes was testing, that is typically
what I test because it is worse case and more real world application.
Thanks
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft LLC
R&D Technical Support
931-680-1781
nick@flylightning.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of selwyn
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:03 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Thoughts and reasons for the Evoution of a
Design.
--> <selwyn@ellisworks.com.au>
Hi Nick,
A couple of queries on this. Some Lightnings tend to run out of nose up
trim on approach with flap. Working from the descriptions in your article
suggests that the trim forces will be reduced and less trim tab power
required. Is that the case in practice?
If I read you correctly, you talk about "significantly less elevator throw
for the same stick movement" which implies that you are changing the gearing
in the elevator circuit. What changes are made here?
Finally, do you consider this mod would have similar effects on the short
wing aeroplane? I do a lot of long cross countries in mine and, while
lovely to fly, a little more trim stability would be nice on those 500 mile
legs without an autopilot.
--------
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385343#385343
Message 2
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| Subject: | Thoughts on tie downs |
Just got back from a 2500 mile round trip Dallas-Washington DC and back...the scenic
route.
In any case, I'm wanting to address the tie down options on my Lightning. First,
I have no tie down rings on the plane. I've used the rudder bearing bracket,
and the flap brackets which share the aileron brackets.
I've never really liked that, but Nick indicated it wouldn't be a problem so I
have been using it and not worrying about it. I carry short sections of soft
nylon rope because the first time I stopped somewhere that only had chains I realized
that wasn't a good idea. So the short sections just loop through the
areas referenced above, and I then tie the chains to that. If the airport has
decent ropes, I'll just use those and not bother with my short sections.
What are other people using/doing?
Here are my thoughts, and unless I get some better ideas this will be the path
I go down. I'd like removable tie down rings. I don't usually tie the plane
down, and if I have the option of putting it in a hanger, I will, so having tie
down rings in there ALL the time seems silly. Plus, I've tapped the tail a
few times on landing, and a ring would just increase the frequency of that occurrence.
So, how to do this? My first thought was to embed a large aluminum angle in flock
to the spar/skin in the wing ends to make the hard point. I don't like the
thought of any tension trying to pull the skin off the rib/spar, but several
layers of glass over the angle might alleviate my concern.
Prior to bonding it in place, the angle (probably 1/8" thick) would be drilled
and setup to receive the tie down ring. First thought is a 1/4" nutplate and
a 1/4" bolt. I'd probably rivet a couple of strips of 1/8" thick aluminum to
the angle to build a nice thickness so any bending moments would transfer into
the aluminum and not try to bend the nutplate. Hmmm. A picture would do nicely
here. Maybe I'll make a prototype and post.
My other thought is similar, but with a modified form of quick release pin. I'd
probably fabricate my own since I can't find anyone with a ring on the end,
but if done properly a quick release pin can take hundreds of pounds of force
without failing.
The pin would go into a very similar setup as described with the nutplate, except
the receiver would be steel instead of aluminum. Aluminum is too soft and
would distort if under much tensions with the small contact area of the ball bearings
on the quick release pin.
Yep, either way is a bit of work. But it would only take 10-15 seconds to screw
in the eye bolt or a second to insert the pin.
I'm already carrying the small pieces of rope in case I end up somewhere with chains,
so 3 tie down rings wouldn't be any more space taken up in my travel kit.
So, any thoughts out there?
And while I'm at it, I have one more thought: I know Arion has a control lock
offered, but I'd like to consider a slightly different design. Picture a lock
that goes from the spar (or seatpan) to the stick and locks that, with a portion
going forward which is spring loaded and hooks into the top of each brake
pedal.
That design would lock all surfaces, and the spring loaded part would be similar
to a parking brake. There have been a few times that it would have been very
nice to have a parking brake, and it seems doable to address all of it with
one small device.
Thoughts on that as well?
I'm thinking it's time to take 7RW on some longer flights now, so this is becoming
more important. I'd like to fly her to Mexico before the year is up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385406#385406
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on tie downs |
Never mind on making my own. Here is a link to exactly what I wanted to make as
a quick release pin.
http://www.prifast.co.uk/kwik-lok%20lifting.pdf
It's a Kwik-Lok lifting pin. It's perfect for what I want. No idea on price yet...
But I'll add to the questions now, how strong does it need to be? 1/4" pin lists
at 400 pounds max load. 5/16" at 700.
I can't imagine why it would need to be more than 700...if each wing is pulling
with 700 pounds of force, that's just God telling me he wants me to build another
plane. :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385407#385407
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on tie downs |
Hi Bill,
Here's my solution for the tie-downs. The tail tie-down is =0Asimply a perf
orated and curved 1/8" aluminum plate with a nut attached =0Awith JB weld.
The unit is flocked in place and a closed loop eye bolt =0Acan be threaded
from the bottom when needed.
The Tie-downs in the =0Awings are aluminum blocks that are drilled/tapped f
or the SS closed loop=0A eye bolts. They are "T" shaped from 3/4" bar and a
re bolted to the =0Abrackets that- supports the aileron brackets. Only th
e removable eye =0Abolts protrude from the bottom of the wings and tail, wh
en needed. I =0Ahave a drawing if you need it, Let me know. Tail area pics
in another email.
Bernardo
--- On Mon, 10/15/12, Bill Strahan <bill@gdsx.com> wrote:
From: Bill Strahan <bill@gdsx.com>
Subject: Lightning-List: Thoughts on tie downs
Just got back from a 2500 mile round trip Dallas-Washington DC and back...t
he scenic route.
In any case, I'm wanting to address the tie down options on my Lightning.
- First, I have no tie down rings on the plane.- I've used the rudder b
earing bracket, and the flap brackets which share the aileron brackets.
I've never really liked that, but Nick indicated it wouldn't be a problem s
o I have been using it and not worrying about it.- I carry short sections
of soft nylon rope because the first time I stopped somewhere that only ha
d chains I realized that wasn't a good idea.- So the short sections just
loop through the areas referenced above, and I then tie the chains to that.
- If the airport has decent ropes, I'll just use those and not bother wit
h my short sections.
What are other people using/doing?
Here are my thoughts, and unless I get some better ideas this will be the p
ath I go down.- I'd like removable tie down rings.- I don't usually tie
the plane down, and if I have the option of putting it in a hanger, I will
, so having tie down rings in there ALL the time seems silly.- Plus, I've
tapped the tail a few times on landing, and a ring would just increase the
frequency of that occurrence.
So, how to do this?- My first thought was to embed a large aluminum angle
in flock to the spar/skin in the wing ends to make the hard point.- I do
n't like the thought of any tension trying to pull the skin off the rib/spa
r, but several layers of glass over the angle might alleviate my concern.
Prior to bonding it in place, the angle (probably 1/8" thick) would be dril
led and setup to receive the tie down ring.- First thought is a 1/4" nutp
late and a 1/4" bolt.- I'd probably rivet a couple of strips of 1/8" thic
k aluminum to the angle to build a nice thickness so any bending moments wo
uld transfer into the aluminum and not try to bend the nutplate.- Hmmm.
- A picture would do nicely here.- Maybe I'll make a prototype and post
.
My other thought is similar, but with a modified form of quick release pin.
- I'd probably fabricate my own since I can't find anyone with a ring on
the end, but if done properly a quick release pin can take hundreds of poun
ds of force without failing.
The pin would go into a very similar setup as described with the nutplate,
except the receiver would be steel instead of aluminum.- Aluminum is too
soft and would distort if under much tensions with the small contact area o
f the ball bearings on the quick release pin.
Yep, either way is a bit of work.- But it would only take 10-15 seconds t
o screw in the eye bolt or a second to insert the pin.
I'm already carrying the small pieces of rope in case I end up somewhere wi
th chains, so 3 tie down rings wouldn't be any more space taken up in my tr
avel kit.
So, any thoughts out there?
And while I'm at it, I have one more thought:- I know Arion has a control
lock offered, but I'd like to consider a slightly different design.- Pic
ture a lock that goes from the spar (or seatpan) to the stick and locks tha
t, with a portion going forward which is spring loaded and hooks into the t
op of each brake pedal.
That design would lock all surfaces, and the spring loaded part would be si
milar to a parking brake.- There have been a few times that it would have
been very nice to have a parking brake, and it seems doable to address all
of it with one small device.
Thoughts on that as well?
I'm thinking it's time to take 7RW on some longer flights now, so this is b
ecoming more important.- I'd like to fly her to Mexico before the year is
up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385406#385406
le, List Admin.
Message 5
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Here ya go.
Bernardo
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tail tie-downs |
Yep, that's almost exactly what I imagined for the tail tie down. Except I'm about
convinced to go the Kwik-Lok Lifting Pins. Don't know the cost, but it seems
so cool to just push the button and insert the tiedown ring. Push it and
take it out.
http://www.jergensinc.com/site/product_detail.aspx?group_no=1501
I like cool.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385424#385424
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on tie downs |
Bill,
During my build I decided to add a tail tie down. Here's a couple of pics o
f it. I have not done anything to the wings as i pretty much use the techn
ique Nick told us to use.
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Strahan <bill@gdsx.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 15, 2012 5:48 pm
Subject: Lightning-List: Thoughts on tie downs
Just got back from a 2500 mile round trip Dallas-Washington DC and back...t
he
scenic route.
In any case, I'm wanting to address the tie down options on my Lightning.
First, I have no tie down rings on the plane. I've used the rudder bearing
bracket, and the flap brackets which share the aileron brackets.
I've never really liked that, but Nick indicated it wouldn't be a problem s
o I
have been using it and not worrying about it. I carry short sections of so
ft
nylon rope because the first time I stopped somewhere that only had chains
I
realized that wasn't a good idea. So the short sections just loop through
the
areas referenced above, and I then tie the chains to that. If the airport
has
decent ropes, I'll just use those and not bother with my short sections.
What are other people using/doing?
Here are my thoughts, and unless I get some better ideas this will be the p
ath I
go down. I'd like removable tie down rings. I don't usually tie the plane
down, and if I have the option of putting it in a hanger, I will, so having
tie
down rings in there ALL the time seems silly. Plus, I've tapped the tail a
few
times on landing, and a ring would just increase the frequency of that
occurrence.
So, how to do this? My first thought was to embed a large aluminum angle i
n
flock to the spar/skin in the wing ends to make the hard point. I don't li
ke
the thought of any tension trying to pull the skin off the rib/spar, but se
veral
layers of glass over the angle might alleviate my concern.
Prior to bonding it in place, the angle (probably 1/8" thick) would be dril
led
and setup to receive the tie down ring. First thought is a 1/4" nutplate a
nd a
1/4" bolt. I'd probably rivet a couple of strips of 1/8" thick aluminum to
the
angle to build a nice thickness so any bending moments would transfer into
the
aluminum and not try to bend the nutplate. Hmmm. A picture would do nicel
y
here. Maybe I'll make a prototype and post.
My other thought is similar, but with a modified form of quick release pin.
I'd
probably fabricate my own since I can't find anyone with a ring on the end,
but
if done properly a quick release pin can take hundreds of pounds of force
without failing.
The pin would go into a very similar setup as described with the nutplate,
except the receiver would be steel instead of aluminum. Aluminum is too so
ft
and would distort if under much tensions with the small contact area of the
ball
bearings on the quick release pin.
Yep, either way is a bit of work. But it would only take 10-15 seconds to
screw
in the eye bolt or a second to insert the pin.
I'm already carrying the small pieces of rope in case I end up somewhere wi
th
chains, so 3 tie down rings wouldn't be any more space taken up in my trave
l
kit.
So, any thoughts out there?
And while I'm at it, I have one more thought: I know Arion has a control l
ock
offered, but I'd like to consider a slightly different design. Picture a l
ock
that goes from the spar (or seatpan) to the stick and locks that, with a po
rtion
going forward which is spring loaded and hooks into the top of each brake p
edal.
That design would lock all surfaces, and the spring loaded part would be si
milar
to a parking brake. There have been a few times that it would have been ve
ry
nice to have a parking brake, and it seems doable to address all of it with
one
small device.
Thoughts on that as well?
I'm thinking it's time to take 7RW on some longer flights now, so this is
becoming more important. I'd like to fly her to Mexico before the year is
up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385406#385406
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