---------------------------------------------------------- LycomingEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/25/07: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:23 AM - Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? (Archie) 2. 05:49 AM - Re: LycomingEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 11/24/07 (John Markey) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? (Lee Sahr) 4. 08:53 AM - Re: RV-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? (Ralph Finch) 5. 09:14 AM - Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? (JOHN TIPTON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:23 AM PST US From: "Archie" Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? We have been racing with both ethanol and methanol for years, and have not heard of this. As they are both hydroscopic, I do not see how they can layer out. The only way I know of is through distillation. Archie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? > > > I heard a story the other day about removing ethanol from your car gas > before using it in your plane.....no I haven't done this - I'm not even > flying yet...... > > Based on the test to detect ethanol in your car gas..... > > The ethanol absorbs the water that is poured in for the test and has a > different specific gravity than the remaining fuel and 'layers' out. If > you use more water than the ethanol can absorb, it 'layers' out too. > Theoretically, take a large quantity of gasohol (or whatever it's called > these days), pour in a bunch of water, let it settle, sump it out like you > would if you were trying to get a few drops of water out of your airplane > fuel tanks (of course - more to be safe), and go fly with the rest as the > ethanol has been removed. > > I'm not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think > that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart > that easy! > > I guess if someone did this and tested the remainder for ethanol and > didn't find any - it could (?) be safe to use. > > Someone tell me I've had too much to drink tonite! Or, better yet, > someone with a petroleum engineering background tell us it'll work - then > all we need to do is settle out a bunch of gas and not worry about how > much corn they put in it. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:17 AM PST US From: John Markey Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Re: LycomingEngines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 11/24/07 Ralph asked: "'m not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart that easy!" Oh yes it will. The major drawback on this - what would you do with the contaminated water? Also, there are additives put into car fuels, detergents, etc. as there are additives for AvGas. I'm not clued into what the differences would be, especially after you pull additives and ethanol out during the water separation. What one could more safely do would be to separate out the water and blend the petrol fraction with 100LL. Many old timer EAA'ers like to do this anyway with Mogas and Avgas. My mechanic recommends 70% Mogas/25% Avgas, but i will bet this is a WAG ratio. John LycomingEngines-List Digest Server wrote: * ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:40 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? Based on the test to detect ethanol in your car gas..... The ethanol absorbs the water that is poured in for the test and has a different specific gravity than the remaining fuel and 'layers' out. If you use more water than the ethanol can absorb, it 'layers' out too. Theoretically, take a large quantity of gasohol (or whatever it's called these days), pour in a bunch of water, let it settle, sump it out like you would if you were trying to get a few drops of water out of your airplane fuel tanks (of course - more to be safe), and go fly with the rest as the ethanol has been removed. I'm not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart that easy! I guess if someone did this and tested the remainder for ethanol and didn't find any - it could (?) be safe to use. Someone tell me I've had too much to drink tonite! Or, better yet, someone with a petroleum engineering background tell us it'll work - then all we need to do is settle out a bunch of gas and not worry about how much corn they put in it. --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:21 AM PST US From: "Lee Sahr" Subject: RE: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? Ethanol absorbs water. If it absorbs enough water it changes the density and falls to the bottom of the tank. In the industry we call this phase separation. Trust me you dont want to do this. I've been to many gas stations that has gotten water in there tank. Most times they have to get rid of all the gas in the tank because it changes the octane rating and the gas is no good. Lee -----Original Message----- From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Archie Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:23 AM Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? We have been racing with both ethanol and methanol for years, and have not heard of this. As they are both hydroscopic, I do not see how they can layer out. The only way I know of is through distillation. Archie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? > > > I heard a story the other day about removing ethanol from your car gas > before using it in your plane.....no I haven't done this - I'm not even > flying yet...... > > Based on the test to detect ethanol in your car gas..... > > The ethanol absorbs the water that is poured in for the test and has a > different specific gravity than the remaining fuel and 'layers' out. If > you use more water than the ethanol can absorb, it 'layers' out too. > Theoretically, take a large quantity of gasohol (or whatever it's called > these days), pour in a bunch of water, let it settle, sump it out like you > would if you were trying to get a few drops of water out of your airplane > fuel tanks (of course - more to be safe), and go fly with the rest as the > ethanol has been removed. > > I'm not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think > that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart > that easy! > > I guess if someone did this and tested the remainder for ethanol and > didn't find any - it could (?) be safe to use. > > Someone tell me I've had too much to drink tonite! Or, better yet, > someone with a petroleum engineering background tell us it'll work - then > all we need to do is settle out a bunch of gas and not worry about how > much corn they put in it. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:11 AM PST US From: "Ralph Finch" Subject: LycomingEngines-List: RE: RV-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? The flip side of this question is, what exactly is bad about having ethanol in aviation gasoline? In other words, can we design and build our experimental airplanes so they use modern auto fuel as-is? As an owner of an Alon Aircoupe with an autofuel STC--long before ethanol was added--I've heard of these problems: * Ethanol is very corrosive to some materials, including seals and some metals? * Ethanol readily absorbs water (or vice-versa), so the fuel could then freeze easier (not in the tanks, but easier carb icing and perhaps in fuel lines). * Ethanol's unit heat energy is less than gasoline so you'll get less performance. * Any others? Obviously autos have solved the corrosion problem, can't we do the same with our experimentals? Greater propensity to freeze (if true, not sure about this) could be handled with fuel injection and maybe insulated fuel lines behind the firewall. Lack of performance is probably modest and not a great concern. Ralph Finch -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RV-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I heard a story the other day about removing ethanol from your car gas before using it in your plane.....no I haven't done this - I'm not even flying yet...... Based on the test to detect ethanol in your car gas..... The ethanol absorbs the water that is poured in for the test and has a different specific gravity than the remaining fuel and 'layers' out. If you use more water than the ethanol can absorb, it 'layers' out too. Theoretically, take a large quantity of gasohol (or whatever it's called these days), pour in a bunch of water, let it settle, sump it out like you would if you were trying to get a few drops of water out of your airplane fuel tanks (of course - more to be safe), and go fly with the rest as the ethanol has been removed. I'm not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart that easy! I guess if someone did this and tested the remainder for ethanol and didn't find any - it could (?) be safe to use. Someone tell me I've had too much to drink tonite! Or, better yet, someone with a petroleum engineering background tell us it'll work - then all we need to do is settle out a bunch of gas and not worry about how much corn they put in it. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:05 AM PST US From: "JOHN TIPTON" Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? It is a fact that Ethanol, will ' layer out' when mixed with water - here in the UK, some engines can run on 'Mogas' (Automotive fuel - we call petrol) however only some of these fuels have ethanol in, (I think the ethanol is being added for environmental reasons) now because the ethanol 'attracts water, these fuels (petrol) should not be used, the test is to mix (in a test tube or similar container)10 parts of your fuel with one part water, and shake the bottle, when it settles and you have a ratio of more than the 10per cent water, you have an ethanol in your fuel, now how this can be removed from you fuel supply is another matter. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Archie" Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? > > > We have been racing with both ethanol and methanol for years, and have not > heard of this. > As they are both hydroscopic, I do not see how they can layer out. > The only way I know of is through distillation. > Archie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ralph E. Capen" > To: "rv-list" ; "lycoming engine list" > > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 8:44 PM > Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? > > >> >> >> I heard a story the other day about removing ethanol from your car gas >> before using it in your plane.....no I haven't done this - I'm not even >> flying yet...... >> >> Based on the test to detect ethanol in your car gas..... >> >> The ethanol absorbs the water that is poured in for the test and has a >> different specific gravity than the remaining fuel and 'layers' out. If >> you use more water than the ethanol can absorb, it 'layers' out too. >> Theoretically, take a large quantity of gasohol (or whatever it's called >> these days), pour in a bunch of water, let it settle, sump it out like >> you would if you were trying to get a few drops of water out of your >> airplane fuel tanks (of course - more to be safe), and go fly with the >> rest as the ethanol has been removed. >> >> I'm not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think >> that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart >> that easy! >> >> I guess if someone did this and tested the remainder for ethanol and >> didn't find any - it could (?) be safe to use. >> >> Someone tell me I've had too much to drink tonite! Or, better yet, >> someone with a petroleum engineering background tell us it'll work - then >> all we need to do is settle out a bunch of gas and not worry about how >> much corn they put in it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lycomingengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/LycomingEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lycomingengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lycomingengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.