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0. 12:06 AM - Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published Dec 1! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:50 AM - Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? (Gary Casey)
2. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? (John W. Cox)
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| Subject: | Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Published |
Dec 1!
Dear Listers,
The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! On December 1st I post
a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists.
Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their
appreciation for the Lists.
As a number of people have pointed out in their Contribution comments, these Lists
seems at least as valuable of a building/flying/recreating tool as a typical
your magazine subscription! And how interactive is a magazine, after all?
Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists
is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account:
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Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
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(Please include your email address on the check!)
I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
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| Subject: | Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
I also am not a fuel expert, but offer the following opinions, FWIW:
1. The only reason ethanol has appeared in auto fuel is the
government subsidies. In some states, fuel is exempt from certain
taxes if it has at least 15% ethanol(E15) - that makes the gasoline
portion cheaper as well, which is why you see only 15% and no more.
Ethanol is still more expensive to produce than petroleum fuel on a
per gallon basis. The greeners argue that it is "carbon neutral" but
conveniently forget that it takes about 80% as much (petroleum)
energy to make it as you get out. The number for petroleum fuel is
about 10%. When you burn 1 energy-equivalent gallon of ethanol you
are actually burning about 1.8 gallons, but when you burn 1 gallon of
gasoline you are actually burning 1.1 gallons.
2. Ethanol, like methanol, has a higher octane rating than normal
unleaded or leaded fuel, so it raises the octane rating of the
blend. That's the good thing.
3. On the other hand, ethanol has about 60% the heating value of
petroleum fuel. An engine burning E15 will burn about 6% more fuel
to go the same distance. By the same token, a carburetor set for
gasoline will be running something like 5% leaner with E15. This
could affect the cooling, if not the detonation margin of an aircraft
engine since they are usually calibrated to run richer than best
power on takeoff. If the engine wasn't originally calibrated at
least 5% rich it could affect the takeoff power, but I doubt it. I
believe for cars the (politician's) idea is that the consumer "won't
notice" a 5% increase in fuel consumption, but of course they will,
as a total population.
4. Because ethanol has a higher heat of vaporization than gasoline,
you will get slightly more evaporative cooling which will increase
the power slightly. The downside of this is that you might have a
greater propensity for icing if the increased cooling compensates for
the ability of the ethanol to dissolve the water and ice. I think
the situation gets worse, not better.
5. Yes, the ethanol will attack certain rubbers and is more
corrosive to metals that pure gasoline. Can the materials be changed
to allow running E15? Sure, but who's going to pay for the effort
and guarantee(certify) the results?
6. Except for the increased potential for carburetor icing, E15 will
have less propensity to freeze, not more, as it will hold the
absorbed water in solution.
Overall, it might be easier, as Ralph suggests, to find ways to live
with E15 than get it out of the fuel. I don't have any idea if you
could pull it out of solution by adding water, but I doubt it. While
developing sensors to measure alcohol concentration we've done
experiments with adding water and when we add more water that can be
absorbed as best we can tell what comes out of solution is just
water, not the alcohol. What is left in the solution is
approximately 80% gasoline, 15% alcohol and 5% water. Once the water
gets in I don't know of an easy way to get it out. For that reason
the automotive OEMs are considering higher pressure gas caps with a
vacuum capability so that there is less "breathing" during
temperature cycles in an attempt to keep out the moisture. And E85
"flex fuel" vehicles use all stainless steel fuel system components.
Gary Casey
On Nov 25, 2007, at 11:56 PM, LycomingEngines-List Digest Server wrote:
>
> Time: 08:53:11 AM PST US
> From: "Ralph Finch" <rgf@dcn.davis.ca.us>
> Subject: LycomingEngines-List: RE: RV-List: Removing Ethanol from
> your car-gas?
>
>
> The flip side of this question is, what exactly is bad about having
> ethanol
> in aviation gasoline? In other words, can we design and build our
> experimental airplanes so they use modern auto fuel as-is?
>
> As an owner of an Alon Aircoupe with an autofuel STC--long before
> ethanol
> was added--I've heard of these problems:
>
> * Ethanol is very corrosive to some materials, including seals and
> some
> metals?
> * Ethanol readily absorbs water (or vice-versa), so the fuel could
> then
> freeze easier (not in the tanks, but easier carb icing and perhaps
> in fuel
> lines).
> * Ethanol's unit heat energy is less than gasoline so you'll get less
> performance.
> * Any others?
>
> Obviously autos have solved the corrosion problem, can't we do the
> same with
> our experimentals? Greater propensity to freeze (if true, not sure
> about
> this) could be handled with fuel injection and maybe insulated fuel
> lines
> behind the firewall. Lack of performance is probably modest and
> not a great
> concern.
>
> Ralph Finch
>
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| Subject: | Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
AOPA (or EAA - I can't remember) sent an alert to the Oregon Pilots
Association that a recent Oregon State legislative ruling mandates
higher content of ethanol in Oregon MOGAS. The result as stated by the
EAA is that the Peterson STC to use MOGAS is no longer valid and will
cause individuals operating under such an STC some real operational and
economic pain. It becomes an issue for out of state pilots traversing
our "Progressive" state.
Secondly, Dave Martin, former editor of Kitplanes and the President of
OPA (2007) stated that most of the Rotax powered (not Lycoming) LSAs
would suffer as a result of Oregon's recent legislative alteration.
I am considering asking Monty Barrett to do engine runs with the
IO-540D4A5 with 50% AVGAS, 50% E-85 Greenie MOGAS as a quantitative
baseline.
What do you think? Many states are looking at Oregon's Left of the West
Coast liberal legislative efforts. I will learn more at the OPA
management retreat this weekend and will post what I hear.
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gary Casey
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:50 AM
Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Re: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas?
<glcasey@adelphia.net>
I also am not a fuel expert, but offer the following opinions, FWIW:
1. The only reason ethanol has appeared in auto fuel is the
government subsidies. In some states, fuel is exempt from certain
taxes if it has at least 15% ethanol(E15) - that makes the gasoline
portion cheaper as well, which is why you see only 15% and no more.
Ethanol is still more expensive to produce than petroleum fuel on a
per gallon basis. The greeners argue that it is "carbon neutral" but
conveniently forget that it takes about 80% as much (petroleum)
energy to make it as you get out. The number for petroleum fuel is
about 10%. When you burn 1 energy-equivalent gallon of ethanol you
are actually burning about 1.8 gallons, but when you burn 1 gallon of
gasoline you are actually burning 1.1 gallons.
2. Ethanol, like methanol, has a higher octane rating than normal
unleaded or leaded fuel, so it raises the octane rating of the
blend. That's the good thing.
3. On the other hand, ethanol has about 60% the heating value of
petroleum fuel. An engine burning E15 will burn about 6% more fuel
to go the same distance. By the same token, a carburetor set for
gasoline will be running something like 5% leaner with E15. This
could affect the cooling, if not the detonation margin of an aircraft
engine since they are usually calibrated to run richer than best
power on takeoff. If the engine wasn't originally calibrated at
least 5% rich it could affect the takeoff power, but I doubt it. I
believe for cars the (politician's) idea is that the consumer "won't
notice" a 5% increase in fuel consumption, but of course they will,
as a total population.
4. Because ethanol has a higher heat of vaporization than gasoline,
you will get slightly more evaporative cooling which will increase
the power slightly. The downside of this is that you might have a
greater propensity for icing if the increased cooling compensates for
the ability of the ethanol to dissolve the water and ice. I think
the situation gets worse, not better.
5. Yes, the ethanol will attack certain rubbers and is more
corrosive to metals that pure gasoline. Can the materials be changed
to allow running E15? Sure, but who's going to pay for the effort
and guarantee(certify) the results?
6. Except for the increased potential for carburetor icing, E15 will
have less propensity to freeze, not more, as it will hold the
absorbed water in solution.
Overall, it might be easier, as Ralph suggests, to find ways to live
with E15 than get it out of the fuel. I don't have any idea if you
could pull it out of solution by adding water, but I doubt it. While
developing sensors to measure alcohol concentration we've done
experiments with adding water and when we add more water that can be
absorbed as best we can tell what comes out of solution is just
water, not the alcohol. What is left in the solution is
approximately 80% gasoline, 15% alcohol and 5% water. Once the water
gets in I don't know of an easy way to get it out. For that reason
the automotive OEMs are considering higher pressure gas caps with a
vacuum capability so that there is less "breathing" during
temperature cycles in an attempt to keep out the moisture. And E85
"flex fuel" vehicles use all stainless steel fuel system components.
Gary Casey
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