Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:30 AM - Engine failure (Jim Stone)
2. 06:14 AM - Re: Engine failure (FLYaDIVE)
3. 07:32 AM - Re: Engine failure (Tim Andres)
4. 09:19 AM - Re: Rocket-List: Engine failure (Rob Ray)
5. 03:30 PM - IO-540 crankcase breather (Carl Froehlich)
6. 04:53 PM - Re: IO-540 crankcase breather (Tim Andres)
7. 06:08 PM - Re: Rocket-List: Engine failure (cybersuperstore)
8. 09:54 PM - Re: IO-540 crankcase breather (Frank Stelwagon)
9. 11:08 PM - Re: IO-540 crankcase breather (Tim Andres)
Message 1
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I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for
an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the
failure. I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection in
Louisville Kentucky.
Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.
My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.
The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and
caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting rod
failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.
The engine seized just after touchdown. The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons and
cylinders were all damaged and unusable.
Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something
wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10. I suspect
the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.
If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call or
email me.
My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the failure.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
502 235-3599
Sent from my iPad
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine failure |
Jim:
I don't think you have a case, Mr. Stone.
The KS bearing is an experimental bearing - An automotive bearing - That
you chose to use in an aviation engine.
The Oil Analysis - Which I feel is a total wast of time, money and energy -
Might have shown that there was a problem, but human nature always
overrules facts. And you did nothing with information/facts supplied well
in advance of the engine failure. No oil analysis can tell you when you
will have a failure all they report are the current facts.
Point of Fact: ALL Oil Analysis reports always have a C.Y.A. for the shop
in that 'More testing is required". They leave the judgement call up to
you.
Sorry Mr. Stone, but the judges ruling is insufficient information to
justify a case.
Next case!
Barry
On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
> jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking
> for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what
> caused the failure. I have the entire engine disassembled and available
> for inspection in Louisville Kentucky.
>
> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine
> failures. My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.
>
> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp
> climb and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a
> connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further
> incident.
>
> The engine seized just after touchdown. The case, crank, cam, rods,
> pistons and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.
> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis
> indicating something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I
> didn't make 10. I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts
> to work harden and fail.
> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please
> call or email me.
>
> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of
> the failure.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim Stone
> 502 235-3599
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine failure |
Im not familiar with HS, but rod bearings don't just fail, there is always something
behind the failure.
We're the rods yellow tagged, sized, bolts & nuts replaced? Was the bearing clearance
to crank shaft checked on assembly?
Some hq pictures posted somewhere might give us some clue as to the cause, but
it could have been many different things. Improper assembly, debris in the oil
galley, oil pressure to the bearing, incorrect parts, I could go on.
I'm sorry about your loss, and you are fortunate it turned out as well as it did.
What makes you think it might be the bearing? Proximate location to the failure
doesn't mean a thing. As above, it could be a dozen or more different causes.
In all likely hood, the assembly process is a much better place to start looking
for a defendant than the controlled manufacturing process that supplied your
bearing.
Sorry, but that's the way I see it. I'm glad you didn't bend your airplane or
yourself.
Tim
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 30, 2012, at 5:27 AM, Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for
an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the
failure. I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection
in Louisville Kentucky.
>
> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.
My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.
>
> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and
caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting
rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.
>
> The engine seized just after touchdown. The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons
and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.
> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something
wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10. I
suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.
> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call
or email me.
>
> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the
failure.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim Stone
> 502 235-3599
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List: Engine failure |
Jim,
I will visit my Lycoming expert friend JR next week and share your experience.
I will let you know what transpires.
Smokey
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 30, 2012, at 8:27, Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com> wrote:
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking for
an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what caused the
failure. I have the entire engine disassembled and available for inspection
in Louisville Kentucky.
>
> Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine failures.
My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.
>
> The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb and
caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a connecting
rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further incident.
>
> The engine seized just after touchdown. The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons
and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.
> Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating something
wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10. I
suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and fail.
> If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call
or email me.
>
> My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of the
failure.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim Stone
> 502 235-3599
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | IO-540 crankcase breather |
All,
I was going to use the same crankcase breather oil separator that I have on
the 8A http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/hboilbreather.php
but then I noted the IO-540 has a huge crankcase breather fitting for a 1"
inside diameter hose. The above separator uses 5/8" hose.
This separator works well on the IO-360 in the 8A. Is anyone using this on
a IO-540? Does the IO-540 really need a 1" breather hose?
Carl
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 crankcase breather |
Dunno about the ACS separator, I just installed a Anti splat aero .com separ
ator on my IO360 and I'm pretty happy with it. Seems to be catching all the o
il. They make one for the 540, and I think unlike most of the vendors, have a
ctually done some R&D and dyno testing on the product alsohave a video on th
e development of it that's interesting.
No interest in the the product, just a happy customer.
Tim
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 30, 2012, at 3:27 PM, "Carl Froehlich" <carl.froehlich@verizon.net> w
rote:
> All,
>
> I was going to use the same crankcase breather oil separator that I have o
n the 8A http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/hboilbreather.php
> but then I noted the IO-540 has a huge crankcase breather fitting for a 1
=9D inside diameter hose. The above separator uses 5/8=9D hose.
>
> This separator works well on the IO-360 in the 8A. Is anyone using this o
n a IO-540? Does the IO-540 really need a 1=9D breather hose?
>
> Carl
>
>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Rocket-List: Engine failure |
Glad you are OK, Jim.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:28 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Engine failure
--> Rocket-List message posted by: Jim Stone <jrstone@insightbb.com>
I had an engine failure in my Harmon Rocket (Lyc IO 540), and I am looking
for an engine expert to have a look at all the pieces and tell me what
caused the failure. I have the entire engine disassembled and available for
inspection in Louisville Kentucky.
Or, I would like any info on KS bearing failure and their roll in engine
failures. My engine failed with less than 400 hours since 0 time rebuild.
The engine started making a faint knocking noise followed by oil temp climb
and caution, I headed back to my field and I was on base leg when a
connecting rod failed and punched thru the case, I landed without further
incident.
The engine seized just after touchdown. The case, crank, cam, rods, pistons
and cylinders were all damaged and unusable.
Of note, my engine started making metal on the last oil analysis indicating
something wearing, the company said to retest in 25 hours, I didn't make 10.
I suspect the KS rod bearing failed causing the rod bolts to work harden and
fail.
If you have any experience or knowledge you could pass on to me, please call
or email me.
My goal is to pursue KS bearing if they are determined to be the cause of
the failure.
Thanks,
Jim Stone
502 235-3599
Sent from my iPad
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 crankcase breather |
There are a lot of people who do not believe in the Air-Oil Separators.
They condense the water vapor in the vent line as well as the oil vapor,
both are then returned to the crankcase. The water is not good, when
mixed with the combustion products it leads to acid formation, not good
for the engine. On the other hand they do keep the belly clean!
Frank
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 crankcase breather |
Hi Frank
Not to hijack the thread, well I guess we are!
I gave this a lot of thought and discussed it with a couple of A&Ps. One of
them showed me two Bonanzas right there in the shop that return the oil.
Even bounced it off Mahlon here but I guess he missed it.
I think any water that collects and is returned will be boiled off and given
another shot at getting out as vapor assuming the oil temps are reasonably h
igh. The oil sees temps well above what is read on the gauge in normal ops a
nd the water should boil off and vent. Some may get returned by the separato
r but the cycle continues over and over. I put mine in a good warm area hopi
ng to reduce condensation.
I also took an oil sample at last change and installed the separator. I plan
to have it tested again next time and see if there is any change in the aci
ds or h2o.
Just my thoughts on it, and what I'm doing. I'd like to hear other opinions o
n this.
BTW I often saw water droplets on my dipstick when cold even before I instal
led the separator, and my oil runs right around 180-190. So far I have not n
oticed any increase or change in the moisture and my consumption is now almo
st nill. I'm still testing, but over 12 hours now and almost 1/2 qt. low. Be
fore I was losing a qt. in 8-10 hours on a fresh overhaul, so I know now it'
s kicking it out the vent and not burning it. I really think its just a poor
ly designed vent system and if done right we would not need to add oil all t
he time or install separators.
Thoughts?
Tim
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 30, 2012, at 9:50 PM, "Frank Stelwagon" <pfstelwagon@earthlink.net> w
rote:
> There are a lot of people who do not believe in the Air-Oil Separators. T
hey condense the water vapor in the vent line as well as the oil vapor, both
are then returned to the crankcase. The water is not good, when mixed with
the combustion products it leads to acid formation, not good for the engine
. On the other hand they do keep the belly clean!
>
> Frank
>
>
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