Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:46 AM - Re: IO-540 Cylinders (David & Elaine Lamphere)
2. 05:09 AM - Re: IO-540 Cylinders (Jim Combs)
3. 05:54 AM - Re: IO-540 Cylinders (FLYaDIVE)
4. 09:23 AM - Re: IO-540 Cylinders (John Cox)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Cylinders |
We've had good luck with Millennium cylinders here at CJR.
Dave
On Aug 6, 2013, at 9:52 PM, mds4878 wrote:
> >
>
> I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
> What is the best cylinder to buy.
> Lycoming. 05K21102
> ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
> ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
> Millennium SL36006N-A20P
> I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the
> best ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
> [Question] [Question]
>
> --------
> RV-10 #40447
> Fuselage almost done.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406110#406110
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Cylinders |
We have five of the Titan ECI Steel on our C4B5 with no issues! (540 hours).
One of the Chrome cylinders is still doing well with no issues, so we have
not changed it.
Jim Combs
N312F
Do Not Archive
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:52 PM, mds4878 <mike.nova1973@gmail.com> wrote:
> mike.nova1973@gmail.com>
>
> I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
> What is the best cylinder to buy.
> Lycoming. 05K21102
> ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
> ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
> Millennium SL36006N-A20P
> I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best
> ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
> [Question] [Question]
>
> --------
> RV-10 #40447
> Fuselage almost done.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406110#406110
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Cylinders |
*Mike:*
*
*
*Great question but unfortunately the responses will be opinions and there
is a saying about 'opinions': Opinions are like assholes, everybody's hs
one and they all stink!*
*
*
*But, since you asked for an opinion here you go AND I will supply as much
fact as I know.*
*
*
*Lycoming - NO WAY! *
*Lycoming has been in business for many, many years and reviewing their
history they have made very little efforts in the way of progress.
Consider the amount of AD's against Lycoming products and their recent
(maybe 4 years old at this time) court case of Bad Steel for the crank
shaft. Yes, the case was won in their favor but it was a case of who had
deeper pockets and they did. They have great lawyers. And it is the
lawyers that run Lycoming, NOT the engineers. The only time they make
changes is when forced to by law suits.*
*Think of all the advancements throughout the engine industry and look
where they are now. Only as far as the lawyers will let them.*
*OK - Enough - I'm a bit confident in that you understand where I
am coming from, let's move on.*
*
*
*ECI - YES, but a difficult decision.*
*ECI has gone through some rough times with a Very Expensive AD on their
cylinders. They have made changes. They have Highly Supported their
customers with the swapping of old cylinders for New -
new Design cylinders. AND they have the Eye of the Tiger. Many a company
would have rolled over and closed their doors and filed for Chapter 11.
They did not! I would suggest you call ECI and talk to a few people there
and see if you get the Warm Fuzzy feeling that inspires confidence.*
*Now to talk Nickel Vs Steel cylinders. *
*Here I can supply you with lots of REAL information. I worked for many
years in the metal coating industry as a QA Engineer/Manager and as
a Technical Sales Engineer. Here are some simple facts:*
*1 - Steel is harder than Nickel.*
*2 - The nickel can be applied through two processes - *
*a> *Electroplating *which requires electrodes to be place inside the
cylinders and is known to NOT give a uniform coating, and *
*b> Electroless plating which is a much more uniform coating. And is less
time consuming and therefore less expensive. My money would be that the
cylinders are Electroless Plates.*
*The next question is which will last longer, Steel or Nickel?*
*The answer is STEEL! Steel will have a hardness in the range of 65 to 85
Rockwell C.*
*Nickel is NOWHERE near that. Matter of FACT! Nickel hardness is NOT
rated in Rockwell it is rated in Vickers with some people using Brindle and
THEN mathematically or via a chart converted over to Rockwell. the Vickers
range is 485 to 750 Vhn. Problem here is the NUMBERS LIE! Look up the
conversion between Vickers to Rockwell and you will find three charts...
Pick one! They all lie.*
*Other Things to Consider:*
*1 - Nickel would be applied in a thin coating of about 0.003" Thick for
this type of cylinder application. MANY times not even that thick... Maybe
0.0007 to 0.001"*
*2 - BONDING of the Nickel to the steel barrel is a MAJOR concern - Read
that as a PROBLEM. Nickel does NOT bond well to hardened base materials.
ACIDS should be used to help the bonding BUT - Acids cause
Hydrogen Embrittlement.*
*I'm not going into that - you can look it up.*
*3 - To harden nickel you heat it at 500 to 700 F preferably in a electric
oven. <-- CO$Tly... Do you think many companies will do that? What do you
think REHEATING (under operation) it will do at say 1500 F? Do you think
it will last long?*
*4 - WARE - Now you are going to take a hardened steel, the Rings (Rockwell
70 to 90 Rc) and rub them against Nickel... Do you really think the nickel
will last long?*
*5 - The sales point of nickel is corrosion** protection. Sure! Buy the
engine, never run the engine and the barrels will last long... All the
other ferrous parts will rust through. *
*6 - CHROME - You did not mention it, but I will: Very difficult to get a
uniform coating because it is; or should be, a **trivalent Electroplating
process. VERY HARD - Very Difficult to get the rings to seat. Usually
results in high oil consumption. Because of these issues, that is why
the advertising department - NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE ENGINEERS have switched to
nickel. Still a poor choice.*
*
*
*BOTTOM LINE on Steel Vs Nickel/Chrome... GO WITH STEEL.*
*
*
*NOW, just to muddy the waters (confuse things) just a little more: There
are two different ways of achieving hardness in steel barrels:*
*a> Flame Hardening a.k.a. Heat Treating and *
*b> Nitriding - Chemically hardening. *
*
*
*Both are GOOD - The difference is CO$T. Flame hardening is the more
expensive. The next question you should be thinking about is: How deep is
the barrel treated? In both methods it is about 0.040" Deep. That means
IF you keep your cylinders for three overhauls you will still have enough
material to work with. An overhaul increases the size of the cylinder by
0.010" EACH TIME. That means a 0.005" cut each time plus the ware of say
0.005". More than enough hardened thickness.*
*
*
*Millennium Cylinders - All the same above applies. They also had their
share of AD's. There was one on the pistons for porosity, I believe that
affected all manufactures since they were all buying from
the Brazilian manufacturer. *
*My Lycoming O-320 had Millennium Superior Cylinders - One thing I really
liked about them was the fins were NOT painted - They were Hard
Coat Anodized. This helped tremendously in keeping the engine cool, a much
better heat transfer. Paint acts like a blanket, the anodizing offered a
bare and textured surface to the flow of air.*
*
*
*Last point: On COOLING - Lycoming HAS very POOR castings with lots of
flashing in and around the fins, especially around the spark plug. Before
you install the cylinders check the flashing in those areas. You will have
a hard time believing this but: I cleaned up the flashing on an O-360 and
the CHT's dropped 40 F... YES, No lie, a drop of 40 Degrees F. Clean up
was done with a few 1/8" round files.*
*
*
*Hope all this info helps.*
*
*
*Barry*
*
*
*
*
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:52 PM, mds4878 <mike.nova1973@gmail.com> wrote:
> mike.nova1973@gmail.com>
>
> I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
> What is the best cylinder to buy.
> Lycoming. 05K21102
> ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
> ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
> Millennium SL36006N-A20P
> I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best
> ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
> [Question] [Question]
>
> --------
> RV-10 #40447
> Fuselage almost done.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 Cylinders |
Barry,
Lots of good information. The subject of Hydrogen Embrittlement should be
studied by most Amateur Builders. I find few that take the time (for
whatever reason and you won't find it on the archives). Use of the wrong
chemicals or processes can shorten the life of an aircraft or in your
example the engine long before it should.
I have seen Nitrided cylinders which tend to corrode more rapidly than
Steel due to high humidity environments such as Oregon, much quicker than
the steel. I have seen older chromed cylinders begin to flake off using a
boroscope after the oil sample sent out an alarm on normal screening. All
of your points are great to consider. The area not discussed is a well
executed break-in. Personally, and treading carefully on your "Opinion"
statement, I am a strong advocate on Barrett's dyno'ed printout. Let me go
out on a limb and say that paying the extra for them to "Run it longer" to
complete a sound break-in seems like a wise thing to do when strapping a
new engine onto a new airframe during the Phase One. Oil consumption can
be significantly altered by a correctly broken in powerplant. Most
builders tackle cooling issues simultaneously while tending to Flight
Characteristics and build nuisances. The Nall Report shows we as
Experimental builders contribute to a higher incident of accident's by
doing too much simultaneously during Phase One. I unfortunately know of
too many who cut corners during this key step in the build process.
I concur that Bart or Rhonda would be excellent starting points. I respect
Jesse's experience as he now has far more engines out there than most
builders see in a lifetime of building. Your post was illuminating.
Another factor is Use or lack thereof. The average AB aircraft MIGHT see
40-50 hours a year. It also sees unfortunately large periods of dormant
storage. Flying only once a month or even just once a week has a big
impact on wear. Flying everyday makes a significant reduction in wear. Most
of us can't meet that requirement unless we share the use of the airframe
with a friend. Bringing an engine up to temperature prior to start-up
rotation closes gaps, increases oil delivery and significantly reduces
wear. Reiff heaters when properly used have a great Cost/Benefit. They
are not just for the faint of heart North of the Mason/Dixon line in the
winter. Higher rpms above Idle Cutoff helps in keeping down Klinker
development and uneven exhaust valve seating (750 to 850) due to additional
heat generated. Few operators run Lean of Peak for Ground Idle or Warmup.
An interesting digression.
I have seen a lot of powerplants go well beyond TBO (Lycoming recommended
Overhaul) through judicious use of common sense and sound practices.
Everything over TBO is free engine cost. Everything well short of TBO
should be a case study in Pilot Operation, Operator knowledge and other
physical factors. In our group it is often, "It couldn't be me..... it
must be faulty manufacturing". My impression was the question was a search
for the best longevity. It could be misread as the Cheapest Cost.
Fortunately that should not be the issue. Technical Support and Warranty
policies are two others. Hence Rhonda or Bart.
Frequent Oil samples early in the first 250 hours during break-in, dropped
off to annually just before Conditional Inspection with Oil Change and
increased at the period 1500 hours and even more frequently in the 1800 to
2000 and beyond. I am always amazed at the whining over its cost. Guess
it is just like the cost of Avgas 100.
John Cox
still grinning from OSH '13
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 5:52 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Mike:*
> *
> *
> *Great question but unfortunately the responses will be opinions and
> there is a saying about 'opinions': Opinions are like assholes, everybody's
> hs one and they all stink!*
> *
> *
> *But, since you asked for an opinion here you go AND I will supply as
> much fact as I know.*
> *
> *
> *Lycoming - NO WAY! *
> *Lycoming has been in business for many, many years and reviewing their
> history they have made very little efforts in the way of progress.
> Consider the amount of AD's against Lycoming products and their recent
> (maybe 4 years old at this time) court case of Bad Steel for the crank
> shaft. Yes, the case was won in their favor but it was a case of who had
> deeper pockets and they did. They have great lawyers. And it is the
> lawyers that run Lycoming, NOT the engineers. The only time they make
> changes is when forced to by law suits.*
> *Think of all the advancements throughout the engine industry and look
> where they are now. Only as far as the lawyers will let them.*
> *OK - Enough - I'm a bit confident in that you understand where I
> am coming from, let's move on.*
> *
> *
> *ECI - YES, but a difficult decision.*
> *ECI has gone through some rough times with a Very Expensive AD on their
> cylinders. They have made changes. They have Highly Supported their
> customers with the swapping of old cylinders for New -
> new Design cylinders. AND they have the Eye of the Tiger. Many a company
> would have rolled over and closed their doors and filed for Chapter 11.
> They did not! I would suggest you call ECI and talk to a few people there
> and see if you get the Warm Fuzzy feeling that inspires confidence.*
> *Now to talk Nickel Vs Steel cylinders. *
> *Here I can supply you with lots of REAL information. I worked for many
> years in the metal coating industry as a QA Engineer/Manager and as
> a Technical Sales Engineer. Here are some simple facts:*
> *1 - Steel is harder than Nickel.*
> *2 - The nickel can be applied through two processes - *
> *a> *Electroplating *which requires electrodes to be place inside the
> cylinders and is known to NOT give a uniform coating, and *
> *b> Electroless plating which is a much more uniform coating. And is
> less time consuming and therefore less expensive. My money would be that
> the cylinders are Electroless Plates.*
> *The next question is which will last longer, Steel or Nickel?*
> *The answer is STEEL! Steel will have a hardness in the range of 65 to
> 85 Rockwell C.*
> *Nickel is NOWHERE near that. Matter of FACT! Nickel hardness is NOT
> rated in Rockwell it is rated in Vickers with some people using Brindle and
> THEN mathematically or via a chart converted over to Rockwell. the Vickers
> range is 485 to 750 Vhn. Problem here is the NUMBERS LIE! Look up the
> conversion between Vickers to Rockwell and you will find three charts...
> Pick one! They all lie.*
> *Other Things to Consider:*
> *1 - Nickel would be applied in a thin coating of about 0.003" Thick for
> this type of cylinder application. MANY times not even that thick... Maybe
> 0.0007 to 0.001"*
> *2 - BONDING of the Nickel to the steel barrel is a MAJOR concern - Read
> that as a PROBLEM. Nickel does NOT bond well to hardened base materials.
> ACIDS should be used to help the bonding BUT - Acids cause
> Hydrogen Embrittlement.*
> *I'm not going into that - you can look it up.*
> *3 - To harden nickel you heat it at 500 to 700 F preferably in a
> electric oven. <-- CO$Tly... Do you think many companies will do that?
> What do you think REHEATING (under operation) it will do at say 1500 F?
> Do you think it will last long?*
> *4 - WARE - Now you are going to take a hardened steel, the Rings
> (Rockwell 70 to 90 Rc) and rub them against Nickel... Do you really think
> the nickel will last long?*
> *5 - The sales point of nickel is corrosion** protection. Sure! Buy the
> engine, never run the engine and the barrels will last long... All the
> other ferrous parts will rust through. *
> *6 - CHROME - You did not mention it, but I will: Very difficult to get
> a uniform coating because it is; or should be, a **trivalent
> Electroplating process. VERY HARD - Very Difficult to get the rings to
> seat. Usually results in high oil consumption. Because of these issues,
> that is why the advertising department - NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE ENGINEERS have
> switched to nickel. Still a poor choice.*
> *
> *
> *BOTTOM LINE on Steel Vs Nickel/Chrome... GO WITH STEEL.*
> *
> *
> *NOW, just to muddy the waters (confuse things) just a little more:
> There are two different ways of achieving hardness in steel barrels:*
> *a> Flame Hardening a.k.a. Heat Treating and *
> *b> Nitriding - Chemically hardening. *
> *
> *
> *Both are GOOD - The difference is CO$T. Flame hardening is the more
> expensive. The next question you should be thinking about is: How deep is
> the barrel treated? In both methods it is about 0.040" Deep. That means
> IF you keep your cylinders for three overhauls you will still have enough
> material to work with. An overhaul increases the size of the cylinder by
> 0.010" EACH TIME. That means a 0.005" cut each time plus the ware of say
> 0.005". More than enough hardened thickness.*
> *
> *
> *Millennium Cylinders - All the same above applies. They also had their
> share of AD's. There was one on the pistons for porosity, I believe that
> affected all manufactures since they were all buying from
> the Brazilian manufacturer. *
> *My Lycoming O-320 had Millennium Superior Cylinders - One thing I really
> liked about them was the fins were NOT painted - They were Hard
> Coat Anodized. This helped tremendously in keeping the engine cool, a much
> better heat transfer. Paint acts like a blanket, the anodizing offered a
> bare and textured surface to the flow of air.*
> *
> *
> *Last point: On COOLING - Lycoming HAS very POOR castings with lots of
> flashing in and around the fins, especially around the spark plug. Before
> you install the cylinders check the flashing in those areas. You will have
> a hard time believing this but: I cleaned up the flashing on an O-360 and
> the CHT's dropped 40 F... YES, No lie, a drop of 40 Degrees F. Clean up
> was done with a few 1/8" round files.*
> *
> *
> *Hope all this info helps.*
> *
> *
> *Barry*
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:52 PM, mds4878 <mike.nova1973@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> mike.nova1973@gmail.com>
>>
>> I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
>> What is the best cylinder to buy.
>> Lycoming. 05K21102
>> ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
>> ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
>> Millennium SL36006N-A20P
>> I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best
>> ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
>> [Question] [Question]
>>
>> --------
>> RV-10 #40447
>> Fuselage almost done.
>>
>> *
>
> *
>
>
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