---------------------------------------------------------- LycomingEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/02/14: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:50 AM - RTV and Aircraft Engines (Neal George) 2. 12:05 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (Ralph E. Capen) 3. 02:11 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (Ralph Finch) 4. 04:10 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (Dale Ensing) 5. 05:10 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (FLYaDIVE) 6. 05:39 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (David & Elaine Lamphere) 7. 07:58 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (Neal George) 8. 08:17 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (John Cox) 9. 09:14 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (FLYaDIVE) 10. 11:08 PM - Re: RTV and Aircraft Engines (Stuart Hutchison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:59 AM PST US From: Neal George Subject: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines Rm9yIHRob3NlIG9mIHlvdSBhZHZvY2F0aW5nIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgUlRWIGluIGFpcmNyYWZ0IGVu Z2luZXMsIG9yIGZvciB0aG9zZSB3aG8gbWlnaHQgYmUgdGVtcHRlZCB0byB1c2UgaXQsIEkgb2Zm ZXIgdGhlIGF0dGFjaGVkIHBob3Rvcy4NCg0KT25lIHBob3RvIGlzIG9mIGEgaHlkcmF1bGljIHZh bHZlIGxpZnRlciwgcGFja2VkIHdpdGggUlRWLiAgUlRWIGdldHMgc29mdCBpbiB0aGUgcHJlc2Vu 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ZSwgTGlzdCBBZG1pbi4NCg0KXy09M0QgICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2Nv bnRyaWJ1dGlvbjwzRCUyMmh0dHA6L3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbiUyMj4N Cg0KXy09M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0QNCg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:05 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines Thanks for the 'result' photo's -----Original Message----- From: Neal George Sent: Jun 2, 2014 2:49 PM Subject: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for those who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft in the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the deterioration. Youd be surprised where it ends up The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. RTV was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows things to move that shouldnt like crankcase halves. Movement results in fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose their clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the main bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. When the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark a stress riser. The result is inevitable. From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did you find them Perhaps it should be....it works! Dale Ensing On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George wrote: Gentlemen - You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand of engine. The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. Neal George Continental Motors Technical Support / Customer Service Sent from my iPhone 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:22 PM PST US From: Ralph Finch Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines Interesting and valuable post on the Matronics lists. I'm good for Wednesday, morning or afternoon. It appears Wednesday will be hot, but the hottest days are Thursday and Friday. RF On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Neal George wrote: > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for > those who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft > in the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the > deterioration. You=99d be surprised where it ends up > > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. R TV > was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, > under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows > things to move that shouldn=99t =93 like crankcase halves. M ovement results > in fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose > their clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, > the main bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin > cheeks. When the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark =93 a s tress > riser. The result is inevitable. > > > [image: PIC00005] > > > *From:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dale > Ensing > *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > *To:* lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did > you find them > > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George > wrote: > > Gentlemen - > > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand > of engine. > > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > > Continental Motors > > Technical Support / Customer Service > > Sent from my iPhone > > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D* > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D* > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D* > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D* > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines From: Dale Ensing Mr. George, Your point is well taken. But, You are generalizing the term RTV. RTV is not a product. It is a description of a product that is Room Temperature Vulcan ized. The chemistry of RTV products is wide and varied with performance acco rdingly. Not all RTVs are created equal! There are RTVs that do not "get sof t in the presence of motor oil and gasoline" Dale Ensing On Jun 2, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Neal George wro te: > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for tho se who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft i n the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the deterioratio n. You=99d be surprised where it ends up > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. RT V was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows things to m ove that shouldn=99t =93 like crankcase halves. Movement result s in fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose the ir clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the mai n bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. W hen the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark =93 a stress riser. The result is inevitable. > > > > > > > > > From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomi ngengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > To: lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did you f ind them > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George w rote: > > Gentlemen - > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand o f engine. > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > Continental Motors > Technical Support / Customer Service > Sent from my iPhone > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines From: FLYaDIVE Neal: No One - Is advocating using RTV inside the engine. The IDIOT that did that should never blow his nose... He will blow his brains out! Yet! Lycoming does use an RTV to seal the case halves. So, making a 'general' - "Don't do it!" statement is not the way to go. There were very particulars on What to use and How to use it. NOTE: All RTV are not the same. And when you consider that Lycomning use to use a Silk Thread and Varnish to seal the case halves - Damn! RTV is one hell of an improvement. So, I guess RTV is 'recommended'! Barry "Chop'd Liver" On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Neal George wrote: > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for > those who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft > in the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the > deterioration. You'd be surprised where it ends up... > > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. RTV > was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, > under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows > things to move that shouldn't - like crankcase halves. Movement results > in fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose > their clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, > the main bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin > cheeks. When the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark - a stress > riser. The result is inevitable. > > > [image: PIC00005] > > > *From:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dale > Ensing > *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > *To:* lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did > you find them > > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George > wrote: > > Gentlemen - > > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand > of engine. > > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > > Continental Motors > > Technical Support / Customer Service > > Sent from my iPhone > > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:26 PM PST US From: David & Elaine Lamphere Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines When I rebuilt my Lycoming 320, I used silk thread and a glue (spec'd by Lycoming) that reminded me of Pliobond - didn't seem to be varnish. Anyway, no leakage yet @360 hrs. Dave L. On Jun 2, 2014, at 8:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Neal: > > No One - Is advocating using RTV inside the engine. The IDIOT that > did that should never blow his nose... He will blow his brains out! > > Yet! Lycoming does use an RTV to seal the case halves. So, making a > 'general' - "Don't do it!" statement is not the way to go. There > were very particulars on What to use and How to use it. > > NOTE: All RTV are not the same. And when you consider that > Lycomning use to use a Silk Thread and Varnish to seal the case > halves - Damn! RTV is one hell of an improvement. > So, I guess RTV is 'recommended'! > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Neal George > wrote: > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or > for those who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets > soft in the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates > the deterioration. You=92d be surprised where it ends up=85 > > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical > fasteners. RTV was used instead of the indicated (required) > sealant. In operation, under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV > in critical joints allows things to move that shouldn=92t ' like > crankcase halves. Movement results in fretting. As the main > bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose their clamping force > and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the main bearings > walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. When > the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark ' a stress riser. The > result is inevitable. > > > > > > > > > From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > To: lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did > you find them > > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George > wrote: > > Gentlemen - > > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either > brand of engine. > > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > > Continental Motors > > Technical Support / Customer Service > > Sent from my iPhone > > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > > D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > - The LycomingEngines-List Email Forum - > Q, /b> cs.com/Navigator? > LycomingEngines-List > D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - onics.com > D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > - List Contribution Web Site - t! -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. cs.com/contribution > D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:23 PM PST US From: Neal George Subject: RE: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines OK, The Overhaul Manual for both Lycoming and Continental engines call out spec ific products and procedures for sealing the various joints. Y'all do what you want, but I'm really tired of reading about friends in th e news. A complete discussion of this subject is rather detailed and lengthy, and d oes not lend itself to email-type back & forth. Anyone who would like to c ontinue the discussion is welcome to call me on the CMI Tech line or drop b y the booth at OSH and we'll hash it out. neal From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomin gengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: Monday, June 02, 2014 7:09 PM Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines Neal: No One - Is advocating using RTV inside the engine. The IDIOT that did tha t should never blow his nose... He will blow his brains out! Yet! Lycoming does use an RTV to seal the case halves. So, making a 'gener al' - "Don't do it!" statement is not the way to go. There were very parti culars on What to use and How to use it. NOTE: All RTV are not the same. And when you consider that Lycomning use t o use a Silk Thread and Varnish to seal the case halves - Damn! RTV is one hell of an improvement. So, I guess RTV is 'recommended'! Barry "Chop'd Liver" On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Neal George > wrote: For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for thos e who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft i n the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the deteriorati on. You'd be surprised where it ends up... The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. RTV was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows things to move that shouldn't - like crankcase halves. Movement results in fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose their clamping f orce and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the main bearings w alked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. When the bea ring touched the cheek, it left a mark - a stress riser. The result is ine vitable. [cid:image001.png@01CF7EAA.F355CBA0] [PIC00005] From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-serve r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM s.com> Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did you fi nd them Perhaps it should be....it works! Dale Ensing On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George > wrote: Gentlemen - You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand o f engine. The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. Neal George Continental Motors Technical Support / Customer Service Sent from my iPhone 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D - The LycomingEngines-List Email Forum - > Q, /b> cs.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - onics.com D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D - List Contribution Web Site - t! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. cs.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:37 PM PST US Subject: RE: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines From: John Cox Thank you for this post. On Jun 2, 2014 8:07 PM, "Neal George" wrote: > OK, > > > The Overhaul Manual for both Lycoming and Continental engines call out > specific products and procedures for sealing the various joints. > > > Y=99all do what you want, but I=99m really tired of reading a bout friends in > the news. > > > A complete discussion of this subject is rather detailed and lengthy, and > does not lend itself to email-type back & forth. Anyone who would like > to continue the discussion is welcome to call me on the CMI Tech line or > drop by the booth at OSH and we=99ll hash it out. > > > neal > > > *From:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE > *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2014 7:09 PM > *To:* LYCOMING ENGINES > *Subject:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines > > > Neal: > > > No One - Is advocating using RTV inside the engine. The IDIOT that did > that should never blow his nose... He will blow his brains out! > > > Yet! Lycoming does use an RTV to seal the case halves. So, making a > 'general' - "Don't do it!" statement is not the way to go. There were ve ry > particulars on What to use and How to use it. > > > NOTE: All RTV are not the same. And when you consider that Lycomning use > to use a Silk Thread and Varnish to seal the case halves - Damn! RTV is > one hell of an improvement. > > So, I guess RTV is 'recommended'! > > > Barry > > "Chop'd Liver" > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Neal George < > ngeorge@continentalmotors.aero> wrote: > > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for > those who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft > in the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the > deterioration. You=99d be surprised where it ends up > > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. > RTV was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, > under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows > things to move that shouldn=99t =93 like crankcase halves. M ovement results in > fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose their > clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the mai n > bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. > When the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark =93 a stress ris er. The > result is inevitable. > > > [image: PIC00005] > > > *From:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dale > Ensing > *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > *To:* lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did > you find them > > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George > wrote: > > Gentlemen - > > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand > of engine. > > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > > Continental Motors > > Technical Support / Customer Service > > Sent from my iPhone > > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D > > - The LycomingEngines-List Email Forum - > > > > > Q, > > /b> > > cs.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > onics.com > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > t! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > cs.com/contribution > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines From: FLYaDIVE Yes, OK! Stop the dramatics and stick with the facts. An engine is not going to stop running and a plane is not going to fall out of the air because you use RTV... In the areas we are talking about. And in the Lycoming manual, as previously stated there is an RTV for sealing the case halves. And as I previously stated you BETTER quote only from the approved Continental Manual... After all, you should not jeopardize your job or put the company in question. NOTHING wrong with sticking to the policies. But, if Continental or Lycoming were the ONLY sources of information and the ONLY way of doing something there would not be any reason for the EAA or advancements in aviation. Just consider little things in recent years like Electronic Ignitions, Roller Cams, the cange in valves and valve guides, or how about things like Flight Directors for aircraft UNDER $3000! We all know, or should understand Lycoming & Continental make their decisions by what the Lawyers say... Not by what Engineers say. You cannot get into trouble by doing what the Manual says. Unless you are the prosecuting attorney. Barry "Chop'd Liver" No-sense in having a public discussion if it only takes place over a phone. On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Neal George wrote: > OK, > > > The Overhaul Manual for both Lycoming and Continental engines call out > specific products and procedures for sealing the various joints. > > > Y'all do what you want, but I'm really tired of reading about friends in > the news. > > > A complete discussion of this subject is rather detailed and lengthy, and > does not lend itself to email-type back & forth. Anyone who would like > to continue the discussion is welcome to call me on the CMI Tech line or > drop by the booth at OSH and we'll hash it out. > > > neal > > > *From:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE > *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2014 7:09 PM > *To:* LYCOMING ENGINES > *Subject:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines > > > Neal: > > > No One - Is advocating using RTV inside the engine. The IDIOT that did > that should never blow his nose... He will blow his brains out! > > > Yet! Lycoming does use an RTV to seal the case halves. So, making a > 'general' - "Don't do it!" statement is not the way to go. There were very > particulars on What to use and How to use it. > > > NOTE: All RTV are not the same. And when you consider that Lycomning use > to use a Silk Thread and Varnish to seal the case halves - Damn! RTV is > one hell of an improvement. > > So, I guess RTV is 'recommended'! > > > Barry > > "Chop'd Liver" > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Neal George < > ngeorge@continentalmotors.aero> wrote: > > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for > those who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft > in the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the > deterioration. You'd be surprised where it ends up... > > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. > RTV was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, > under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows > things to move that shouldn't - like crankcase halves. Movement results in > fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose their > clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the main > bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. > When the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark - a stress riser. The > result is inevitable. > > > [image: PIC00005] > > > *From:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dale > Ensing > *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > *To:* lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did > you find them > > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George > wrote: > > Gentlemen - > > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand > of engine. > > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > > Continental Motors > > Technical Support / Customer Service > > Sent from my iPhone > > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > > D=============================================== > > - The LycomingEngines-List Email Forum - > > > > > Q, > > /b> > > cs.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List > > > D=============================================== > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > onics.com > > > D=============================================== > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > t! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > cs.com/contribution > > > D=============================================== > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:57 PM PST US From: Stuart Hutchison Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines Thanks Neal. I rebuilt my Lycoming IO-540 under supervision and learned quite a few logic al, but tried and true lessons from the workshop engineers at the time. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Certain RTVs may be acceptable according to Lycoming, but there's none in my engine and I'm personally glad about that ! Kind regards, Stu Sent from my iPhone On 03/06/2014, at 12:57, Neal George wrote: > OK, > > The Overhaul Manual for both Lycoming and Continental engines call out spe cific products and procedures for sealing the various joints. > > Y=99all do what you want, but I=99m really tired of reading ab out friends in the news. > > A complete discussion of this subject is rather detailed and lengthy, and d oes not lend itself to email-type back & forth. Anyone who would like to co ntinue the discussion is welcome to call me on the CMI Tech line or drop by t he booth at OSH and we=99ll hash it out. > > neal > > > From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomi ngengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2014 7:09 PM > To: LYCOMING ENGINES > Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: RTV and Aircraft Engines > > Neal: > > No One - Is advocating using RTV inside the engine. The IDIOT that did th at should never blow his nose... He will blow his brains out! > > Yet! Lycoming does use an RTV to seal the case halves. So, making a 'gene ral' - "Don't do it!" statement is not the way to go. There were very parti culars on What to use and How to use it. > > NOTE: All RTV are not the same. And when you consider that Lycomning use t o use a Silk Thread and Varnish to seal the case halves - Damn! RTV is one h ell of an improvement. > So, I guess RTV is 'recommended'! > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Neal George wrote: > For those of you advocating the use of RTV in aircraft engines, or for tho se who might be tempted to use it, I offer the attached photos. > > One photo is of a hydraulic valve lifter, packed with RTV. RTV gets soft i n the presence of motor oil and gasoline. Heat accelerates the deterioratio n. You=99d be surprised where it ends up > > The other photo is the result of loss of torque on critical fasteners. RT V was used instead of the indicated (required) sealant. In operation, under the stresses of the power stroke, RTV in critical joints allows things to m ove that shouldn=99t =93 like crankcase halves. Movement result s in fretting. As the main bearing saddles fret, the through-bolts lose the ir clamping force and the bearings begin to move. In this instance, the mai n bearings walked fore and aft, stopped by the adjacent crank-pin cheeks. W hen the bearing touched the cheek, it left a mark =93 a stress riser. The result is inevitable. > > > > > > > > > From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomi ngengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 5:58 AM > To: lycomingengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Induction leaks where and how did you f ind them > > Perhaps it should be....it works! > > Dale Ensing > > On May 29, 2014, at 8:53 PM, Neal George w rote: > > Gentlemen - > > You will not find RTV listed among the approved sealants for either brand o f engine. > > The only place it is acceptable is sealing gaps in baffles. > > Neal George > Continental Motors > Technical Support / Customer Service > Sent from my iPhone > > 1. Replace the Intake Gasket. > 2. AND seal it with High Temp RTV. > > > > > > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D > - The LycomingEngines-List Email Forum - > > > Q, > /b> > cs.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > onics.com > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D > - List Contribution Web Site - > t! > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > cs.com/contribution > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lycomingengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/LycomingEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lycomingengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lycomingengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.