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1. 03:47 PM - AW: Oil cooler connections (Peter Sokolowski)
2. 03:47 PM - AW: Oil cooler connections (Peter Sokolowski)
3. 04:09 PM - Re: AW: Oil cooler connections (Carl Froehlich)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Oil cooler connections |
Barry,
see below for answers.
Thanks in advance for further comments and efforts.
Peter
Von: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von
FLYaDIVE
Gesendet: Montag, 28. M=C3=A4rz 2016 01:36
An: LYCOMING ENGINES
Betreff: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections
Peter:
On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with
cooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have
a Vernatherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are
you using another bypass valve?
Because it is written in the manual attached in my first mail =93
see page 5, pic. 4 (Reinstall Plug - oh just wait
=93 just the plug. =93 my fault.)
YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm
on the Oil Filter Housing.
Yes =93 agree, in my case it was called =9Eplunger=9D
so I guessed it is not a Vernatherm =93 anyhow it is not
installed.
The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within
the engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the
Vernatherm CLOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to
the Oil Cooler.
Simple and effective.
I agree =93 I will not open a discussion who is correct =93
you or Carl in the former mail =93 but would like to know which
explanation is the correct one
NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL
NEVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will
NEVER ALLOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the
cooling system.
I agree and that is not the case in my engine.
NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my
mouth and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are
correct.
I learned to question everything =93 especially in my case as I am
running out of solutions
Some of the questions are:
1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly?
Next thing I will check =93 it was checked by the engine overhaul
shop. But will re-check
2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape?
To be checked =93 see above.
3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct?
I tested with an independent other instrument and corrdct at least +-
5-10 degree
4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate?
Yep
5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range?
They are well in the grange below 400
6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they
above 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine
specs on Max or Min EGT.
They are fine as well. Some differences between cylinders =93 but
not that much
7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have?
It is a 10 row one from Steward, I guess around 6 inch x 4 inch x 2 inch
Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer
to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum,
and again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that.
Yes it was in front of cylinder 2, well installed and sealed. The only
thing I can think of is differential pressure is to small =93 but
on others it is working (would love to have it there)
In the meantime trying all possible solutions (which were recommended to
me) I installed it on the firewall with air supplied from the plenum
during first try and with air from a dedicated Naca duct on a second
trial. NO DIFFERENCE on all three configurations !
That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders
are in good shape.
Yep, baffles between 1&3 and 2&4 are the original Lycmongs and are
really good.
SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is
doing well. It should be doing well!
.no =93 it is =93 UNFORTUNATELY =93
notthat=C2=B4s why I am writing hereL
Let's go back to the document you attached:
Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine?
It is he configuration on page 2, Fig. 2 =93 Oil Filter adapter
with corresponding Type 2 Thermostatic By-Pass Valve installed. Type 1
Oil Cooler By-Pass is not installed =93 except the Plug as shown.
Spring and Plunger not installed.
The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so
will recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach
the Oil Cooler. With the results of high oil temps.
Wait =93 I do not understand. Without the Plug the oil will flow
out and no circulation at all will happen. Or what do you mean with
=9Cplug=9D? I have connected the oil-cooler to
=9CB=9D as shown in Figure 4 on page 5 =93 so have to
seal =9CA=9D with a plug anyhow ? It can not stay
open
BTW =93 is there a way to connect the oil-cooler line to
=9CA=9D as well and to seal =9CB=9D with a plug
? What is the difference ?
OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the
above notes.
Barry
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski
<air.peter@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by
my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air
supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I
need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from
below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil
cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see
attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not
installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be
something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler
before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either
only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to
the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter
Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich"
<carl.froehlich@verizon.net>:
Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor
run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and
coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag.
Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the
two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200.
Carl
Message 2
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| Subject: | Oil cooler connections |
Carl,
I will answer your questions below.
I am aware that Lancairs =93 especially 360 running hot quite
fast, but once in the air and not climbing anymore they cool down.
Compared to others my engine is running very fast way to hot and does
not improve during level flight. I have tried a lot to improve, from
your comments the only thing remaining is to improve differential
pressure.
Any other thoughts ?
Thanks
Peter
Von: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von
Carl Froehlich
Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. M=C3=A4rz 2016 16:06
An: lycomingengines-list@matronics.com
Betreff: RE: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections
Peter,
First on our comment that =9Coil seams to flow through the cooler
before getting hot=9D. This is exactly what should happen. When
the oil is cold the cooler bypass valve is open allowing oil to bypass
the cooler. That means oil is flowing though the cooler as well a
through the bypass valve (see figure #1 of your attachment). This is
why many need to reduce cooling air to the oil cooler in the winter to
get oil temps above 180 degrees. Do not think of this bypass valve like
you do a car thermostat. They are exactly opposite in function.
OK, this is a bit different from what I understand =93 and Barrys
comment.
You did not say if this is a new problem or not.
I have a overhauled engine and flying since about 2-3 hours. The problem
exists from the very beginning.
Not sure about your filter adapter, perhaps a diagram would help. From
what you said I think you have removed the original engine veratherm
(oil cooler bypass valve). Is this correct?
- NO -
If so I offer this is one of the problems. This valve must close and
shut off bypass oil when the engine oil is hot.
Of note, the one Lancair 360 I=99m familiar with had a long
history of heat problems. It got so bad the engine failed on run-up for
takeoff. The guy who did the overhaul said he never saw heat damage
like that. If you continue to have problems you might want to revisit
some basics:
- The oil cooler is just too small. The one in the above
Lancair was significantly undersized.
It is a 10 row one
- While you have taken steps to improve air to the cooler, what
did you do to improve air out of the cooler? The Lancair above cowl
exit was way too small to handle the needed engine cooling air volume.
Airflow requires a differential pressure drop across the cooler.
Well something probably to improve
- Are CHTs in the 380 degree range in cruise or do they run hot
as well? They are OK and in this range
Good luck,
Carl
From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Peter Sokolowski
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 4:26 AM
Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections
Hi friends,
I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by
my own.
So this is the background:
Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air
supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I
need some support.
So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from
below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil
cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see
attached document).
Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not
installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be
something real wrong.
One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler
before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either
only through the cooler or only partial.
And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to
the plunger.
Thanks for you help
Peter
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Oil cooler connections |
As it seems you have control of your cylinder heat temperatures, look again a
t the oil cooler.
If your oil cooler is smaller than the AirFlow 2006X, it is too small.
Carl
> On Mar 28, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Peter Sokolowski <air.peter@googlemail.com> w
rote:
>
> Carl,
>
> I will answer your questions below.
>
> I am aware that Lancairs =93 especially 360 running hot quite fast, b
ut once in the air and not climbing anymore they cool down.
>
> Compared to others my engine is running very fast way to hot and does not i
mprove during level flight. I have tried a lot to improve, from your comment
s the only thing remaining is to improve differential pressure.
>
> Any other thoughts ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter
>
> Von: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomin
gengines-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von Carl Froehlich
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. M=C3=A4rz 2016 16:06
> An: lycomingengines-list@matronics.com
> Betreff: RE: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections
>
> Peter,
>
> First on our comment that =9Coil seams to flow through the cooler be
fore getting hot=9D. This is exactly what should happen. When the oi
l is cold the cooler bypass valve is open allowing oil to bypass the cooler.
That means oil is flowing though the cooler as well a through the bypass v
alve (see figure #1 of your attachment). This is why many need to reduce co
oling air to the oil cooler in the winter to get oil temps above 180 degrees
. Do not think of this bypass valve like you do a car thermostat. They are
exactly opposite in function.
>
> OK, this is a bit different from what I understand =93 and Barrys co
mment.
>
> You did not say if this is a new problem or not.
>
> I have a overhauled engine and flying since about 2-3 hours. The problem e
xists from the very beginning.
>
> Not sure about your filter adapter, perhaps a diagram would help. =46rom w
hat you said I think you have removed the original engine veratherm (oil coo
ler bypass valve). Is this correct?
>
> - NO -
>
> If so I offer this is one of the problems. This valve must close and shut
off bypass oil when the engine oil is hot.
>
> Of note, the one Lancair 360 I=99m familiar with had a long history o
f heat problems. It got so bad the engine failed on run-up for takeoff. Th
e guy who did the overhaul said he never saw heat damage like that. If you c
ontinue to have problems you might want to revisit some basics:
> - The oil cooler is just too small. The one in the above Lancair
was significantly undersized.
> It is a 10 row one
> - While you have taken steps to improve air to the cooler, what d
id you do to improve air out of the cooler? The Lancair above cowl exit was
way too small to handle the needed engine cooling air volume. Airflow requ
ires a differential pressure drop across the cooler.
> Well something probably to improve
> - Are CHTs in the 380 degree range in cruise or do they run hot a
s well? They are OK and in this range
>
> Good luck,
> Carl
>
>
>
> From: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycomi
ngengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Sokolowski
> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 4:26 AM
> To: lycomingengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections
>
> Hi friends,
>
> I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by m
y own.
>
> So this is the background:
>
> Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected.
> Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air s
upplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct.
>
> In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes.
>
> So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I n
eed some support.
>
> So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from bel
ow (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cooler
bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached docume
nt).
> Return line from cooler is not in question I think.
>
> So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not install
ed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real wr
ong.
>
> One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler be
fore getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only t
hrough the cooler or only partial.
>
> And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the p
lunger.
>
> Thanks for you help
>
> Peter
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