---------------------------------------------------------- LycomingEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/04/16: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:37 PM - Re: Oil cooler connections (FLYaDIVE) 2. 01:57 PM - Re: Oil cooler connections (Peter Sokolowski) 3. 03:32 PM - Re: Oil cooler connections (Carl Froehlich) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections From: FLYaDIVE Peter: Haven't heard back from you, have you solved the problem? Barry On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Peter Sokolowski wrote: > Barry, > > > see below for answers. > > > Thanks in advance for further comments and efforts. > > > Peter > > > *Von:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *Im Auftrag von *FLYaDIV E > *Gesendet:* Montag, 28. M=C3=A4rz 2016 01:36 > *An:* LYCOMING ENGINES > *Betreff:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections > > > Peter: > > > On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with > cooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have a > Vernatherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are you > using another bypass valve? > > Because it is written in the manual attached in my first mail =93 s ee page > 5, pic. 4 (Reinstall Plug - oh just wait =93 just the plug. =93 my fault.) > > YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm > on the Oil Filter Housing. > > Yes =93 agree, in my case it was called =9Eplunger=9D s o I guessed it is not a > Vernatherm =93 anyhow it is not installed. > > The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within th e > engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the Vernatherm > CLOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to the Oil > Cooler. > > Simple and effective. > > I agree =93 I will not open a discussion who is correct =93 y ou or Carl in the > former mail =93 but would like to know which explanation is the cor rect one > > NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL > NEVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will NEVE R > ALLOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the cooling > system. > > I agree and that is not the case in my engine. > > > NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my > mouth and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are > correct. > > I learned to question everything =93 especially in my case as I am running > out of solutions > > Some of the questions are: > > 1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly? > > Next thing I will check =93 it was checked by the engine overhaul s hop. But > will re-check > > 2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape? > > To be checked =93 see above. > > 3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct? > > I tested with an independent other instrument and corrdct at least +- 5-1 0 > degree > > 4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate? > > Yep > > 5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range? > > They are well in the grange below 400 > > 6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they > above 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine specs > on Max or Min EGT. > > They are fine as well. Some differences between cylinders =93 but n ot that > much > > 7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have? > > It is a 10 row one from Steward, I guess around 6 inch x 4 inch x 2 inch > > > Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer > to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum, > and again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that. > > Yes it was in front of cylinder 2, well installed and sealed. The only > thing I can think of is differential pressure is to small =93 but o n others > it is working (would love to have it there) > > In the meantime trying all possible solutions (which were recommended to > me) I installed it on the firewall with air supplied from the plenum duri ng > first try and with air from a dedicated Naca duct on a second trial. NO > DIFFERENCE on all three configurations ! > > That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders are > in good shape. > > Yep, baffles between 1&3 and 2&4 are the original Lycmongs and are really > good. > > SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is > doing well. It should be doing well! > > .no =93 it is =93 UNFORTUNATELY =93 not that=C2=B4s why I am writing hereL > > > Let's go back to the document you attached: > > Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine? > > It is he configuration on page 2, Fig. 2 =93 Oil Filter adapter wit h > corresponding Type 2 Thermostatic By-Pass Valve installed. Type 1 Oil > Cooler By-Pass is not installed =93 except the Plug as shown. Sprin g and > Plunger not installed. > > The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so > will recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach th e > Oil Cooler. With the results of high oil temps. > > Wait =93 I do not understand. Without the Plug the oil will flow ou t and no > circulation at all will happen. Or what do you mean with =9Cplug =9D? I have > connected the oil-cooler to =9CB=9D as shown in Figure 4 on p age 5 =93 so have to > seal =9CA=9D with a plug anyhow ? It can not stay op en > > > BTW =93 is there a way to connect the oil-cooler line to =9CA =9D as well and to > seal =9CB=9D with a plug ? What is the difference ? > > > OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the above > notes. > > > Barry > > > On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski < > air.peter@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Hi friends, > > I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by > my own. > > So this is the background: > > Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected. > Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air > supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct. > > In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes. > > So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I > need some support. > > So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from > below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil > cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attach ed > document). > Return line from cooler is not in question I think. > > So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not > installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be somethi ng > real wrong. > > One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler > before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either > only through the cooler or only partial. > > And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to the > plunger. > > Thanks for you help > > Peter > > Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" < > carl.froehlich@verizon.net>: > > Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor > run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and > coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag. > > > Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the > two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200. > > > Carl > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections From: Peter Sokolowski Hi Barry, Thanks for asking. No, problem still existing... I have dismounted the filter adapter and the vernatherm. Pictures attached. I tested the vernatherm and it works within spec. So what else can be wrong? Valve seat, oil pressure...? I am running out of ideas, I am thinking about separate NACA ducts for the cooler in and outlet... But on other Lancair it is not necessary... So what else could be the issue ? Thanks in advance Peter Am 04.04.2016 10:40 nachm. schrieb "FLYaDIVE" : > Peter: > > Haven't heard back from you, have you solved the problem? > > Barry > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Peter Sokolowski < > air.peter@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Barry, >> >> >> >> see below for answers. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for further comments and efforts. >> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> *Von:* owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: >> owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com] *Im Auftrag von * >> FLYaDIVE >> *Gesendet:* Montag, 28. M=C3=A4rz 2016 01:36 >> *An:* LYCOMING ENGINES >> *Betreff:* Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections >> >> >> >> Peter: >> >> >> >> On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with >> cooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have a >> Vernatherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are yo u >> using another bypass valve? >> >> Because it is written in the manual attached in my first mail =93 see page >> 5, pic. 4 (Reinstall Plug - oh just wait =93 jus t the plug. =93 my fault.) >> >> YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm >> on the Oil Filter Housing. >> >> Yes =93 agree, in my case it was called =9Eplunger=9D so I guessed it is not a >> Vernatherm =93 anyhow it is not installed. >> >> The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within >> the engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the Vernath erm >> CLOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to the Oil >> Cooler. >> >> Simple and effective. >> >> I agree =93 I will not open a discussion who is correct =93 you or Carl in >> the former mail =93 but would like to know which explanation is th e correct >> one >> >> NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL >> NEVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will NEV ER >> ALLOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the cooling >> system. >> >> I agree and that is not the case in my engine. >> >> >> >> NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my >> mouth and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are >> correct. >> >> I learned to question everything =93 especially in my case as I am running >> out of solutions >> >> Some of the questions are: >> >> 1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly? >> >> Next thing I will check =93 it was checked by the engine overhaul shop. >> But will re-check >> >> 2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape? >> >> To be checked =93 see above. >> >> 3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct? >> >> I tested with an independent other instrument and corrdct at least +- >> 5-10 degree >> >> 4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate? >> >> Yep >> >> 5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range? >> >> They are well in the grange below 400 >> >> 6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they >> above 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine spec s >> on Max or Min EGT. >> >> They are fine as well. Some differences between cylinders =93 but not that >> much >> >> 7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have? >> >> It is a 10 row one from Steward, I guess around 6 inch x 4 inch x 2 inch >> >> >> >> Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer >> to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum, >> and again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that. >> >> Yes it was in front of cylinder 2, well installed and sealed. The only >> thing I can think of is differential pressure is to small =93 but on others >> it is working (would love to have it there) >> >> In the meantime trying all possible solutions (which were recommended to >> me) I installed it on the firewall with air supplied from the plenum dur ing >> first try and with air from a dedicated Naca duct on a second trial. NO >> DIFFERENCE on all three configurations ! >> >> That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders ar e >> in good shape. >> >> Yep, baffles between 1&3 and 2&4 are the original Lycmongs and are reall y >> good. >> >> SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is >> doing well. It should be doing well! >> >> .no =93 it is =93 UNFORTUNATELY =93 not that=C2=B4s why I am writing hereL >> >> >> >> Let's go back to the document you attached: >> >> Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine? >> >> It is he configuration on page 2, Fig. 2 =93 Oil Filter adapter wi th >> corresponding Type 2 Thermostatic By-Pass Valve installed. Type 1 Oil >> Cooler By-Pass is not installed =93 except the Plug as shown. Spri ng and >> Plunger not installed. >> >> The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so >> will recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach t he >> Oil Cooler. With the results of high oil temps. >> >> Wait =93 I do not understand. Without the Plug the oil will flow o ut and no >> circulation at all will happen. Or what do you mean with =9Cplug =9D? I have >> connected the oil-cooler to =9CB=9D as shown in Figure 4 on page 5 =93 so have to >> seal =9CA=9D with a plug anyhow ? It can not stay o pen >> >> >> >> BTW =93 is there a way to connect the oil-cooler line to =9C A=9D as well and to >> seal =9CB=9D with a plug ? What is the difference ? >> >> >> >> OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the abov e >> notes. >> >> >> >> Barry >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski < >> air.peter@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi friends, >> >> I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by >> my own. >> >> So this is the background: >> >> Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected. >> Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air >> supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct. >> >> In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes. >> >> So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I >> need some support. >> >> So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from >> below (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil >> cooler bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attac hed >> document). >> Return line from cooler is not in question I think. >> >> So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not >> installed - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be someth ing >> real wrong. >> >> One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler >> before getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either >> only through the cooler or only partial. >> >> And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to th e >> plunger. >> >> Thanks for you help >> >> Peter >> >> Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" < >> carl.froehlich@verizon.net>: >> >> Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor >> run). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and >> coupler standoff ring for the 4372 mag. >> >> >> >> Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the >> two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200. >> >> >> >> Carl >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:15 PM PST US From: Carl Froehlich Subject: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections As you have eliminated everything else, you are left with the oil cooler be ing just too small. Replace the cooler with an Airflow Systems 2006X cooler: http://www.aircraft spruce.com/catalog/eppages/xseriesOilCooler.php Carl > On Apr 4, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Peter Sokolowski wr ote: > > Hi Barry, > Thanks for asking. No, problem still existing... > I have dismounted the filter adapter and the vernatherm. Pictures attached .. > I tested the vernatherm and it works within spec. > So what else can be wrong? > Valve seat, oil pressure...? > I am running out of ideas, > I am thinking about separate NACA ducts for the cooler in and outlet... > But on other Lancair it is not necessary... So what else could be the issu e? > > Thanks in advance > > Peter > > Am 04.04.2016 10:40 nachm. schrieb "FLYaDIVE" : >> Peter: >> >> Haven't heard back from you, have you solved the problem? >> >> Barry >> >>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 6:46 PM, Peter Sokolowski wrote: >>> Barry, >>> >>> >>> >>> see below for answers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance for further comments and efforts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> Von: owner-lycomingengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lycom ingengines-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von FLYaDIVE >>> Gesendet: Montag, 28. M=C3=A4rz 2016 01:36 >>> An: LYCOMING ENGINES >>> Betreff: Re: LycomingEngines-List: Oil cooler connections >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Lancair's that I have worked on or seen do not have any issues with c ooling. The plenum does a fantastic job of cooling. You say you have a Ver natherm installed with the Oil Filter Adapter. SO, why do you are you using another bypass valve? >>> >>> Because it is written in the manual attached in my first mail =93 s ee page 5, pic. 4 (Reinstall Plug - oh just wait =93 just the plug. =93 my fault.) >>> >>> YOU DO NOT USE TWO Vernatherms or ByPass Valves. Use ONLY the Vernatherm on the Oil Filter Housing. >>> >>> Yes =93 agree, in my case it was called =9Eplunger=9D s o I guessed it is not a Vernatherm =93 anyhow it is not installed. >>> >>> The Vernatherm stays OPEN at low temps which circulates the oil within t he engine. Once the oil temps are high enough (180 F/85 C) the Vernatherm C LOSES the bypass hole in the engine and NOW the oil flows to the Oil Cooler. >>> >>> Simple and effective. >>> >>> I agree =93 I will not open a discussion who is correct =93 y ou or Carl in the former mail =93 but would like to know which explana tion is the correct one >>> >>> NOW! If you install a second oil bypass valve the oil temperature WILL N EVER get hot enough AT THE SECOND second valve. And the Valve will NEVER AL LOW oil flow, so the oil cooler will NEVER become part of the cooling system .. >>> >>> I agree and that is not the case in my engine. >>> >>> >>> >>> NOW! There are all sorts of questions, I am going to put my foot in my m outh and make an assumption: That ALL other items are working and are corre ct. >>> >>> I learned to question everything =93 especially in my case as I am running out of solutions >>> >>> Some of the questions are: >>> >>> 1 - Is the Oil Filter Vernatherm working correctly? >>> >>> Next thing I will check =93 it was checked by the engine overhaul s hop. But will re-check >>> >>> 2 - Is the Vernatherm seat in the engine in good shape? >>> >>> To be checked =93 see above. >>> >>> 3 - Is the Sending Unit for the Oil Temp correct? >>> >>> I tested with an independent other instrument and corrdct at least +- 5- 10 degree >>> >>> 4 - Is the Gauge the Sending Unit is connected to accurate? >>> >>> Yep >>> >>> 5 - What are the CHT's, are they with in range? >>> >>> They are well in the grange below 400 >>> >>> 6 - What are the EGT's? Not that they matter that much, but are they ab ove 1400 F? <-- This is MY personal limit. There are NO engine specs on M ax or Min EGT. >>> >>> They are fine as well. Some differences between cylinders =93 but n ot that much >>> >>> 7 - How big and how many vanes does the oil cooler have? >>> >>> It is a 10 row one from Steward, I guess around 6 inch x 4 inch x 2 inch >>> >>> >>> >>> Location of the Oil Cooler is a little important and I personally prefer to have it right at the cowl inlet. BUT! Being that you have a plenum, an d again I'm ASSUMING <-- Hate doing that. >>> >>> Yes it was in front of cylinder 2, well installed and sealed. The only t hing I can think of is differential pressure is to small =93 but on ot hers it is working (would love to have it there) >>> >>> In the meantime trying all possible solutions (which were recommended to me) I installed it on the firewall with air supplied from the plenum during first try and with air from a dedicated Naca duct on a second trial. NO DIFF ERENCE on all three configurations ! >>> >>> That it is well installed and the lower baffles between the cylinders ar e in good shape. >>> >>> Yep, baffles between 1&3 and 2&4 are the original Lycmongs and are reall y good. >>> >>> SOooo, even if you have a firewall or baffle mounted oil cooler it is do ing well. It should be doing well! >>> >>> .no =93 it is =93 UNFORTUNATELY =93 not that=C2=B4s why I am writing hereL >>> >>> >>> >>> Let's go back to the document you attached: >>> >>> Please indicate WHICH figure/configuration you have on your engine? >>> >>> It is he configuration on page 2, Fig. 2 =93 Oil Filter adapter wi th corresponding Type 2 Thermostatic By-Pass Valve installed. Type 1 Oil Coo ler By-Pass is not installed =93 except the Plug as shown. Spring and P lunger not installed. >>> >>> The one on Figure 4 requires a plug to be installed. Failure to do so w ill recirculate the oil with in the engine and the oil will NOT reach the Oi l Cooler. With the results of high oil temps. >>> >>> Wait =93 I do not understand. Without the Plug the oil will flow o ut and no circulation at all will happen. Or what do you mean with =9C plug=9D? I have connected the oil-cooler to =9CB=9D as sho wn in Figure 4 on page 5 =93 so have to seal =9CA=9D with a plug anyhow ? It can not stay open >>> >>> >>> >>> BTW =93 is there a way to connect the oil-cooler line to =9C A=9D as well and to seal =9CB=9D with a plug ? What is the difference ? >>> >>> >>> >>> OK, back to you Peter, let's hear what you find after reviewing the abov e notes. >>> >>> >>> >>> Barry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Peter Sokolowski wrote: >>> >>> Hi friends, >>> >>> I have as significant problem with my oil temps which I can not solve by my own. >>> >>> So this is the background: >>> >>> Lycoming O360 F1A6, in a Lancair 360 with external cooler connected. >>> Tried cooler in front of cylinder 2, cooler behind the firewall with air supplied from plenum, as well as air supplied direct from Nava duct. >>> >>> In all cases temps were much to high with no significant changes. >>> >>> So I went back to the connections I used to connect the cooler - where I need some support. >>> >>> So I have an Olli filter adapter with the thermostatic screwed in from b elow (vernatherm). One of the docs I use says that I still need the oil cool er bypass plunger if I connect to oil cooler connection B (see attached docu ment). >>> Return line from cooler is not in question I think. >>> >>> So my question is - do I need the plunger - which is presently not insta lled - or what I am doing wrong? - and I mean there must be something real w rong. >>> >>> One more observation - the oil seams to flow already through the cooler b efore getting the hot, I.e. warm. So I suspect the oil following either only through the cooler or only partial. >>> >>> And yes - I will check the vernatherm to - but my questions refers to th e plunger. >>> >>> Thanks for you help >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> Am 23.12.2015 8:24 nachm. schrieb "Carl Froehlich" : >>> >>> Removed from new Van's IO-390. Engine never run (other than the factor r un). Includes eight Champion REB37E plugs, impulse coupler, gear and couple r standoff ring for the 4372 mag. >>> >>> >>> >>> Total cost of buying from Aircraft Spruce would be $2800+ (including the two $150 core charges). Will sell as a package for $2200. >>> >>> >>> >>> Carl >>> >>> >>> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lycomingengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/LycomingEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lycomingengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lycomingengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.