---------------------------------------------------------- M14PEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/02/07: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:28 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Sarah Tobin) 2. 08:16 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Monty Barrett Sr) 3. 08:44 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (A. Dennis Savarese) 4. 11:56 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Jan Mevis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:59 AM PST US From: Sarah Tobin Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? I've used it twice when I ran it below the 200 psi or so that in normally required to start once on my 55 long wing and once on my 55m model, starts up just fine. Steve Culp wrote: Interesting since nitrogen won't support combustion. It has never worked for me or my customers. Were you completely filling an empty system or topping off a low system? I can see if you were topping off a system that had some air in it. Steve Wesley Warner wrote: I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine. Wes On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote: > Hi: > > Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and > the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change > the fittings around to make this happen. > > I would think he is very lucky no one was injured. > > If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the > contents I would not use it. > > One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to > start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But > they should get good oil pressure. > > If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two > people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out > of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something > substantial. > > I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful. > Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed > tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces > of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes. > > Steve Culp > > Scott Aldrich wrote: > > I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few > notes. > > The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the > tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily > air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem > when the O2 initially pumped in. > > Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused > by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big > violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up. > To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line > from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the > stainless braid was blown out all along this line too. > > Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2. > > How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation > like this? > > FWIW > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM > To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? > > > Just got the following e mail from a friend. > > > > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps > not. > > > > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the > Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap ----- > > > > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently, > when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at another > airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started > the engine, it backfired violently, but started. > > > > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next time > he tried to start, no air pressure. > > > > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a > 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and > lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine. > > > > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the adapter > that the air distributor sits on. > > > > Moral of this story, if you need an --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? From: "Monty Barrett Sr" I don't see why an M14 would not start using nitrogen. I agree, it does not support combustion, BUT! It is not introduced to a cylinder that is going to have combustion. Monty Barrett -----Original Message----- From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wesley Warner Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine. Wes On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote: > Hi: > > Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and > the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change > the fittings around to make this happen. > > I would think he is very lucky no one was injured. > > If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the > contents I would not use it. > > One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to > start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But > they should get good oil pressure. > > If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two > people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out > of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something > substantial. > > I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful. > Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed > tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces > of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes. > > Steve Culp > > Scott Aldrich wrote: > > I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few > notes. > > The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the > tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily > air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem > when the O2 initially pumped in. > > Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused > by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big > violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up. > To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line > from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the > stainless braid was blown out all along this line too. > > Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2. > > How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation > like this? > > FWIW > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM > To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? > > > Just got the following e mail from a friend. > > > > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps > not. > > > > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the > Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap ----- > > > > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently, > when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at another > airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started > the engine, it backfired violently, but started. > > > > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next time > he tried to start, no air pressure. > > > > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a > 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and > lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine. > > > > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the adapter > that the air distributor sits on. > > > > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or > nitrogen, not oxygen. > > > > > Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the air > tanks? > > -------- > Milt > 2003 F1 Rocket > 2006 Radial Rocket > Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have made a > difference to the world, but the Marines dont have that problem. - > Ronald Reagan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103699#103699 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:16 AM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? Monte, It's like MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil). No one knows why it works so well. As for my engine, I've tried it several times and it just won't start. Don't ask me why, because I'll give you the MMO answer. :-) Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monty Barrett Sr" Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 10:20 AM Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? > > > I don't see why an M14 would not start using nitrogen. I agree, it does > not support combustion, BUT! It is not introduced to a cylinder that is > going to have combustion. > > Monty Barrett > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wesley > Warner > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 3:40 PM > To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? > > > > I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine. > > Wes > > > On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote: >> Hi: >> >> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked >> and >> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would >> change >> the fittings around to make this happen. >> >> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured. >> >> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the >> contents I would not use it. >> >> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to >> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But >> they should get good oil pressure. >> >> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two >> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely >> out >> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something >> substantial. >> >> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful. >> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have >> installed >> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small >> pieces >> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their >> planes. >> >> Steve Culp >> >> Scott Aldrich wrote: >> >> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a >> few >> notes. >> >> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in >> the >> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of >> oily >> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no >> problem >> when the O2 initially pumped in. >> >> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" >> caused >> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big >> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing >> up. >> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line >> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the >> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too. >> >> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2. >> >> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a >> situation >> like this? >> >> FWIW >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V >> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM >> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com >> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????[LashBack] >> >> >> Just got the following e mail from a friend. >> >> >> >> >> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps >> not. >> > >> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the >> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap ----- >> > >> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently, >> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at >> another >> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he >> started >> the engine, it backfired violently, but started. >> > >> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next >> > time >> he tried to start, no air pressure. >> > >> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew >> > a >> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and >> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine. >> > >> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the >> > adapter >> that the air distributor sits on. >> > >> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, >> > or >> nitrogen, not oxygen. >> > >> >> >> >> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the >> air >> tanks? >> >> -------- >> Milt >> 2003 F1 Rocket >> 2006 Radial Rocket >> ,"Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have made a >> difference to the world, but the Marines don,"t have that >> problem., - >> Ronald Reagan >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103699#103699 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:44 AM PST US From: "Jan Mevis" Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? I've started my Yak 50 several times with nitrogen. Works fine ! Jan Mevis -----Original Message----- From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Monty Barrett Sr Sent: maandag 2 april 2007 17:21 Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? I don't see why an M14 would not start using nitrogen. I agree, it does not support combustion, BUT! It is not introduced to a cylinder that is going to have combustion. Monty Barrett -----Original Message----- From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wesley Warner Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 3:40 PM Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine. Wes On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote: > Hi: > > Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and > the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change > the fittings around to make this happen. > > I would think he is very lucky no one was injured. > > If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the > contents I would not use it. > > One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to > start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But > they should get good oil pressure. > > If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two > people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out > of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something > substantial. > > I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful. > Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed > tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces > of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes. > > Steve Culp > > Scott Aldrich wrote: > > I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few > notes. > > The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the > tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily > air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem > when the O2 initially pumped in. > > Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused > by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big > violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up. > To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line > from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the > stainless braid was blown out all along this line too. > > Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2. > > How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation > like this? > > FWIW > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V > Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM > To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com > Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank?????? > > > Just got the following e mail from a friend. > > > > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps > not. > > > > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the > Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap ----- > > > > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently, > when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at another > airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started > the engine, it backfired violently, but started. > > > > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next time > he tried to start, no air pressure. > > > > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a > 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and > lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine. > > > > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the adapter > that the air distributor sits on. > > > > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or > nitrogen, not oxygen. > > > > > Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the air > tanks? > > -------- > Milt > 2003 F1 Rocket > 2006 Radial Rocket > Some people live an entire lifetime and wonder if they have made a > difference to the world, but the Marines dont have that problem. - > Ronald Reagan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103699#103699 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message m14pengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/M14PEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/m14pengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/m14pengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.