Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:51 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (George Coy)
2. 06:36 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Steve Culp)
3. 07:19 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Jan Mevis)
4. 11:57 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
5. 11:58 AM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E)
6. 12:15 PM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Steve Culp)
7. 01:14 PM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (George Coy)
8. 09:48 PM - Re: O2 in air tank?????? (Jan Mevis)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air
is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to
ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I
have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably
priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The
shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will
keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the
re start.
George
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the
cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn
on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the
starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on
the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the
compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard
air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with
water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not
fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have
installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small
pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in
the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of
oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure"
caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing
up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a
situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at
another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next
time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the
adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or
> nitrogen, not oxygen.
> >
>
>
> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the
air
> tanks?
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
Pretty brave words.
I have it on good authority that you can also use NOS to start them or in a pinch
methane gas. I have even started them with high pressure water. Push starting
also works but is hard on the rudder as you have to be pushed about 120.
Steve
George Coy <george@gesoco.com> wrote:
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air is
also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to ostensibly
blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I
have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably priming
and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The shower of sparks
will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will keep going. Keep
it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the re start.
George
---------------------------------
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the cylinder
completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn on all
that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the starting
air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on the
firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the compressed gas
are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with water
pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not fire
as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure" caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or
> nitrogen, not oxygen.
> >
>
>
> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the air
> tanks?
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
I've started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed
to start it by hand propping. And I'm too scared to use this method anyway.
George's method is more appealing to me. But how do you know that you've
got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably
but hey, I'm only a simple guy :-) )
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air
is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to
ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I
have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably
priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The
shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will
keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the
re start.
George
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the
cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn
on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the
starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on
the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the
compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard
air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with
water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not
fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have
installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small
pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in
the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of
oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure"
caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing
up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a
situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at
another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next
time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the
adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or
> nitrogen, not oxygen.
> >
>
>
> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the
air
> tanks?
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
Hello George,
Yes, I learned about that "purge" measure when we accidentally removed
too much of the tach generator gear assy, and had to retime the air
distributor. Isn't THAT a wonderful task? I have to admit throwing my
tools down in disgust on that episode. Sergei Boriak talked in Russian
on his cell for about an hour then came back and spent another 3 hours
messing with it, following which it worked.
Anyway, thanks for the correction. Bottom line, I can't explain for
sure why it works for me and not you.
Mark Bitterlich
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George
Coy
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:51
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but
air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion
strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause
hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with
nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down,
suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at
TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few
tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure
for brakes and the re start.
George
________________________________
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak
Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with
the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have
sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a
variation in the starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is
on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the
compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard
air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks
with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit
it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start....
more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked
just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles
marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone
would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label
identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen
to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert
gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with
two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are
completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to
something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real
careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I
have installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some
small pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started
their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just
to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it
is way in the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the
source of oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is
why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back
pressure" caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and
the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and
everything blowing up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless
braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail
- the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was
"air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2
in a situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already
know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have
in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine.
Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This
happened at another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the
problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home.
The next time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream
that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard
line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out
of the adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that
it is air, or
> nitrogen, not oxygen.
> >
>
>
>
> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill
connector on the air
> tanks?
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
Don't forget the rubber band method.
Mgb
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Culp
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:36
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Pretty brave words.
I have it on good authority that you can also use NOS to start them or
in a pinch methane gas. I have even started them with high pressure
water. Push starting also works but is hard on the rudder as you have
to be pushed about 120.
Steve
George Coy <george@gesoco.com> wrote:
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your
theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non
expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could
cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with
nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down,
suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at
TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few
tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure
for brakes and the re start.
George
________________________________
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak
Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an
engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried
it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.
Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder
that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward
with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the
standard air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my
tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I
admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did
start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It
worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of
bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that
someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a
label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use
Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on
an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty
easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you
are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down
to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to
be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a
choice. I have installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could
carry some small pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they
started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
Aldrich"
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned
below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder
type and it is way in the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far
from the source of oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside -
that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any
"back pressure" caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back
fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and
everything blowing up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a
stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in
the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the
bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air
or O2 in a situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you
already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine
you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded
engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in.
This happened at another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the
problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he
flew home. The next time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so
extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting
on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the
engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the
studs out of the adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if
page,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
Forums!
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
I can speak from experience about the rubber bands. Always get help as I lost
my footing and slipped when I was almost back to the plane with the rubber band
which was under a lot of tension. I was drug 3200 feet! Launched me over the
threshold of the runway and fortunatly no one was on final that day. It would
have killed me if I had not been on sod.
Got to be careful.
Steve
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich@navy.mil>
wrote:
Don't forget the rubber band method.
Mgb
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Culp
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:36
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Pretty brave words.
I have it on good authority that you can also use NOS to start them or
in a pinch methane gas. I have even started them with high pressure
water. Push starting also works but is hard on the rudder as you have
to be pushed about 120.
Steve
George Coy wrote:
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your
theory, but air is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non
expansion strokes to ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could
cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with
nitrogen. I have started them with no air by my self by tying them down,
suitably priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at
TDC. The shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few
tries it will keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure
for brakes and the re start.
George
________________________________
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak
Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an
engine with the cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried
it and have sworn on all that is holy that it just will not work.
Possibly a variation in the starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder
that is on the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward
with the compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the
standard air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my
tanks with water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I
admit it did not fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did
start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It
worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of
bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that
someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a
label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use
Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on
an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty
easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you
are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down
to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to
be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a
choice. I have installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could
carry some small pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they
started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
Aldrich"
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned
below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder
type and it is way in the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far
from the source of oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside -
that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any
"back pressure" caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back
fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and
everything blowing up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a
stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in
the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the
bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air
or O2 in a situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you
already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine
you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded
engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in.
This happened at another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the
problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he
flew home. The next time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so
extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting
on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the
engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the
studs out of the adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if
page,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
Forums!
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
Jan,
You can usually feel when the prop turns hard.
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
I've started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed
to start it by hand propping. And I'm too scared to use this method anyway.
George's method is more appealing to me. But how do you know that you've
got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably
but hey, I'm only a simple guy :-) )
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air
is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to
ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I
have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably
priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The
shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will
keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the
re start.
George
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the
cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn
on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the
starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on
the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the
compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard
air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with
water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not
fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have
installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small
pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in
the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of
oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure"
caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing
up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a
situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at
another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next
time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the
adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or
> nitrogen, not oxygen.
> >
>
>
> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the
air
> tanks?
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | O2 in air tank?????? |
That's what I figured. I'll try it next time. Thanks !!
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 22:08
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Jan,
You can usually feel when the prop turns hard.
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
I've started several times with nitrogen without problem, but never managed
to start it by hand propping. And I'm too scared to use this method anyway.
George's method is more appealing to me. But how do you know that you've
got a cylinder at TDC (without opening a cylinder; stupid question probably
but hey, I'm only a simple guy :-) )
Jan Mevis
Yak 50
RA2005K
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Coy
Sent: donderdag 12 april 2007 14:51
Subject: RE: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
Mark,
A slight correction that probably would not change your theory, but air
is also injected into the bottom cylinders during non expansion strokes to
ostensibly blow out any oil or fuel that could cause hydrolock.
You can put me in the class that never has had any luck with nitrogen. I
have started them with no air by my self by tying them down, suitably
priming and pulling through by hand and leaving a cylinder at TDC. The
shower of sparks will fire the cylinder and with luck or a few tries it will
keep going. Keep it tied down until you get air pressure for brakes and the
re start.
George
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
This topic sure comes up a lot. -) I too have started an engine with the
cylinder completely full of nitrogen. Others have tried it and have sworn
on all that is holy that it just will not work. Possibly a variation in the
starting air distributor setting.
Bottom line though is that air is being ported into a cylinder that is on
the firing stroke. Other pistons not being forced downward with the
compressed gas are on the intake stroke and are pulling in the standard
air/fuel mixture.
Regardless, during long periods of inactivity I have filled my tanks with
water pumped nitrogen and have later started the engine. I admit it did not
fire as quickly as it normally does, but it did start.... more than once.
Now lets talk about flight suits and parachutes.
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK
Wesley Warner <warner.wesley@gmail.com> wrote:
I have started an M14P more than once with nitrogen. It worked just fine.
Wes
On 4/1/07, Steve Culp wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Welding companies have to by law have the contents of bottles marked and
> the fittings are different. I was kinda suprised that someone would change
> the fittings around to make this happen.
>
> I would think he is very lucky no one was injured.
>
> If the cylinder looks strange and does not have a label identifying the
> contents I would not use it.
>
> One of the most common mistakes is for people to use Nitrogen to try to
> start the engine. Of course the engine won't start on an inert gas. But
> they should get good oil pressure.
>
> If in doubt hand prop the engine. M-14s prop pretty easy with two
> people. One in the plane and one on the ground. If you are completely out
> of air and the plane has air brakes tie the plane down to something
> substantial.
>
> I have propped a few planes by myself and you have to be real careful.
> Probably a bad idea but sometimes you don't have a choice. I have
installed
> tow hooks on a couple of planes so the owners could carry some small
pieces
> of cable and just leave the cable behind after they started their planes.
>
> Steve Culp
>
> Scott Aldrich wrote:
>
> I've spoken with the owner of the Moose mentioned below. Just to add a few
> notes.
>
> The air bottle is the new modern aluminum cylinder type and it is way in
the
> tail of his Moose - with it being so new and so far from the source of
oily
> air from the compressor it is pretty clean inside - that is why no problem
> when the O2 initially pumped in.
>
> Also all the damage was from the O2 exploding not any "back pressure"
caused
> by the backfire. Actually he is thinking no real back fire and the big
> violent bang he heard was of course the manifold and everything blowing
up.
> To add to the damage mentioned below he has a stainless braided flex line
> from the solenoids on the fire wall to the bottle in the tail - the
> stainless braid was blown out all along this line too.
>
> Of course he was assured multiply times that the bottle was "air" not O2.
>
> How would one test to see if an unknown source was air or O2 in a
situation
> like this?
>
> FWIW
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:54 AM
> To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: M14PEngines-List: O2 in air tank??????
>
>
> Just got the following e mail from a friend.
>
>
> > Just a word of caution-----perhaps something you already know, perhaps
> not.
> >
> > A friend with Murphy Moose that has the same engine you have in the
> Gryphon, just had a strange and costly mishap -----
> >
> > He ran the air tank down trying to start a flooded engine. Apparently,
> when the tank was recharged, someone put oxygen in. This happened at
another
> airport, not his home, and he was not aware of the problem.When he started
> the engine, it backfired violently, but started.
> >
> > Not being aware that there was anything wrong, he flew home. The next
time
> he tried to start, no air pressure.
> >
> > Seems that when it backfired, the pressure was so extream that it blew a
> 3000# line at the engine, as well as another fitting on a hard line, and
> lastly, blew the air start distributor apx 3" off the engine.
> >
> > Bent the lines to the cylinders, and stripped the studs out of the
adapter
> that the air distributor sits on.
> >
> > Moral of this story, if you need an air fill, be sure that it is air, or
> nitrogen, not oxygen.
> >
>
>
> Are the O2 transfill adapters compatible with the fill connector on the
air
> tanks?
>
> --------
> Milt
> 2003 F1 Rocket
> 2006 Radial Rocket
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|