Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:07 AM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (George Coy)
2. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (A. Dennis Savarese)
3. 06:11 AM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (George Coy)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (A. Dennis Savarese)
5. 07:08 AM - Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (mikspin)
6. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (Eddie Moran)
7. 10:13 AM - M462RF (M14P) into car! (Deutsche-Werke)
8. 12:54 PM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (George Coy)
9. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (Yak Pilot)
10. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (Mark Davis)
11. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? (Dan Horton)
12. 11:20 PM - Re: M462RF (M14P) into car! (Jan Mevis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
Dennis,
I do not pretend to know all the differences between the engines, but I
do know the M14P and M14B have a lot of differences including the
carburetor. Simply changing nose cases does not do it. The M14B was not
intended for aerobatic use and needs some internal changes to allow for
inverted operations. The accessory case drive and the oil pump are
different.
Be careful about these things.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Eddie, the B and the P have the same carburetor. The only difference
between the B and the P is the nose case. R and R the nose case on the B
with a nose case from a P and you have a P engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie <mailto:eddiemoranii@yahoo.com> Moran
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
By the "same problem" I was referring to the hesitation when "advancing" the
thrust lever.
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Not that anyone cares.... but just to add to our knowledge base. My M14 is
a "B", had the same problem and was cured by the jet mod.
Eddie Moran
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
GREAT INFO!
Thanks!
Mark
_____
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:25:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Actually Mark, the JPI FS-450G is relatively inexpensive. Gulf Coast and
Pacific Coast Avionics are/were offering a $175 mail-in rebate making the
instrument about $305. LOTS of information for $305. Easy install. If you
decide to order one, make sure you order the FS-450G because the "G"
instrument includes the Floscan model 231 transducer.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I am glad to know that you have verified that with such a calibrated
instrument Dennis. I sure would like to have one of those things! You were
also correct about the P vs. the PF deal. I hate to be wrong, but it
appears that I clearly was, and Kevin was there to verify it from the very
beginning!
Mark Bitterlich
_____
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:15:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I acquired the "fix" from our friend George Coy.
All good input Mark. I also agree one can pull the throttle back until one
can see a slight decrease in MP and save fuel. This is proven by watching
the JPI fuel flow instrument installed in my airplane as well as others.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Was not trying to disagree or start an argument with you Dennis . Just did
not believe that this cure was applicable to the problem being described.
Respectfully, I still do not.
Regarding the stumble in throttle movement. I have talked to many people
about this pressure carb. A lot of people think they have this thing fully
figured out and I have some doubts there since their explanations seem to
differ from the mechanics I have talked to that are Russians themselves and
were trained in that country. I know that my personal understanding is much
less than complete to put it mildly. I do not have the personal first hand
experience to back this up, but from what I have seen one Russian do, it
appears that the "P" model engines that I have seen stumble are usually able
to be cured without plugging the accel pump. Some cases have required
changing air bleed jets to values that "by the book" seemed to be rather
extreme, but the change then allowed the accel pump jet to be pretty much
left alone, or operated withinn normal ranges but never plugged. This is
problematic in that this puts strong suspicion on proper operation of the
diaphragms in that the engine was possibly over rich in the transition
range to begin with. My comment about P vs. PF engines was not meant to
imply that the problem could not happen with a P model, but that in every
case I have seen it could be cured by exercising the complete range of
adjustments possible with this carb, further that while it may have been
tried and used successfully with the P model, that according to my sources,
it was originally intended for the PF model where this problem happens more
often. I am not sure who "invented" this mod.... Seems to me I was told
once... might have been you, George Coy, I really am not sure. I hope
someone chimes in regarding this so that if I am wrong on that point, I
can be corrected. Given that there is no magic in how an engine burns
fuel, and that there are a lot of P models that run perfectly without the
accel jet plugged, it seems to me that an engine that does not run right has
something out of adjustment (or just not working right internally) and does
not need a carb design change. No question that the mod works on some
engines, but to me it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Bottom line, no one around here has a flow bench for these things that I
know of, or has tried to truly tackle over-hauling one and then charting the
flow curves on this side of the pond, and since the darn things are no
longer in production, long term users may eventually switch to fuel
injection anyway.
While New Bern is not a big airport for Russian engines, we have had 5
aircraft with P model engines, all of which ran perfectly without stumble,
and another 4 with PF models, ALL of which stumble some worse than others.
I was told that the carb does have a circuit for WOT mixture enrichment. I
was also informed the operator can pull the throttle back until a very small
change in manifold pressure is seen in order to save fuel with minimum
performance loss. Both pieces of info came from Russian sources directly,
if that means anything.
Mark Bitterlich
_____
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:00:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
There are many, many M14P's, 360 HP engines that exhibit the throttle
response hesitation. The problem is not limited to the PF engine only. The
problem of throttle response hesitation can be reduced by changing the
accelerator pump jet down to a smaller diameter. The smallest accelerator
pump jet is .9 mm and I can say from experience, changing to the .9 mm jet
does not totally eliminate the problem on those engines that exhibit the
problem.
I too have plugged many an accelerator pump jet to stop the hesitation
problem on both P and PF engines. My opinion is, the accelerator pump jet
provides additional fuel during WOT which helps to cool the cylinders
(richer mixture). I'm not sure what the long term impact might be by
plugging the accelerator pump jet.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'll take some flames if necessary, but I feel I must point out that this
mod was actually intended for fixing the throttle lag experienced in a lot
of M-14PF model engines (400HP) and NOT for the M-14P model, which is the
straight 360 HP engine. A normal M-14P engine should run perfectly WITHOUT
needing this modification.
Point number two. Something that has worked normally in the past, and then
suddenly starts working abnormally, or in a way different from in the past
is usually happening because something has changed and not because something
needs to be modified. I think this problem meets that description.
This particular engine lost power when throttled back. It did not stumble
and falter when the throttle was advanced from idle on the deck. This does
not sound like an accelerator pump issue.... ice possibly, water in the
fuel, low fuel pressure, a tank venting problem, you name it... lots of
possible causes, but I would be very hesitant to recommend the accel pump
mod on ANY engine for the described problem.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK.
p.s. Run this by Sergei Boriak, or better yet Vladimir Yastremski... I
think you will find they will agree.
_____
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:18:38 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
David, << We're removing a plug to uncover the jet below it.>> Yes, #10 on
the diagram is the plug (11mm) that you pull to get to the jet.
The jet unscrews, comes out, has a little hole in it. You plug that
somehow..(weld, JB, etc.). Then reinsert the jet and reinstall the 11mm
plug.
My engine ran much better after the mod with no noted lag in acceleration.
Eddie
--- On Sat, 12/20/08, DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca> wrote:
From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'm slightly confused now. We're removing a plug to uncover the jet below
it. Your last sentence says 'plug it and reinstall' , do you mean to
remove the jet, plug it ( the jet ) somehow, then reinstall the plugged jet
and cover it with the first plug? Is this process done on the Huosai
engine too ? thanks..
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran <mailto:eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Fw: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
I am not an expert by any means but I agree on the ice theory. I also have
a picture of the accel plug fix. I would plug that if you have not already.
The following info came from Dennis a few years ago.
See attached. Item #10 is a plug (11 mm I believe) and under the plug is
the acceleration pump jet. The jet has a slot in it just like a slotted
screw. Use a straight blade screwdriver to remove. Plug it and reinstall.
The figure is attached.
Eddie Moran
N320VT
Murphy Moose
--- On Thu, 12/18/08, markgreenway <geewhizmark@gmail.com> wrote:
From: markgreenway <geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
<geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Hello Guys
Any idea why I lost power and had to make a forced landing ,because when
crossing midfield for landing, the motor lost power when I
throttled back. It
never totally died and it regained power once on the ground
_____
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
I appreciate the enlightenment George. Up until your email and based on
other inputs from some pretty well informed people (at least I thought
so anyway), I deduced the B could be made into a P by simply changing
the nose case. I surely won't make that mistake again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: George Coy
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:06 AM
Subject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Dennis,
I do not pretend to know all the differences between the engines,
but I do know the M14P and M14B have a lot of differences including the
carburetor. Simply changing nose cases does not do it. The M14B was not
intended for aerobatic use and needs some internal changes to allow for
inverted operations. The accessory case drive and the oil pump are
different.
Be careful about these things.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis Savarese
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Eddie, the B and the P have the same carburetor. The only difference
between the B and the P is the nose case. R and R the nose case on the
B with a nose case from a P and you have a P engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
By the "same problem" I was referring to the hesitation when
"advancing" the thrust lever.
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p
lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:45 PM
Not that anyone cares.... but just to add to our
knowledge base. My M14 is a "B", had the same problem and was cured by
the jet mod.
Eddie Moran
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak
52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:31 PM
GREAT INFO!
Thanks!
Mark
------------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:25:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak
52 m14p lose power?
Actually Mark, the JPI FS-450G is relatively
inexpensive. Gulf Coast and Pacific Coast Avionics are/were offering a
$175 mail-in rebate making the instrument about $305. LOTS of
information for $305. Easy install. If you decide to order one, make
sure you order the FS-450G because the "G" instrument includes the
Floscan model 231 transducer.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I am glad to know that you have verified that with
such a calibrated instrument Dennis. I sure would like to have one of
those things! You were also correct about the P vs. the PF deal. I
hate to be wrong, but it appears that I clearly was, and Kevin was there
to verify it from the very beginning!
Mark Bitterlich
----------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:15:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I acquired the "fix" from our friend George Coy.
All good input Mark. I also agree one can pull
the throttle back until one can see a slight decrease in MP and save
fuel. This is proven by watching the JPI fuel flow instrument installed
in my airplane as well as others.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Was not trying to disagree or start an argument
with you Dennis . Just did not believe that this cure was applicable to
the problem being described. Respectfully, I still do not.
Regarding the stumble in throttle movement. I
have talked to many people about this pressure carb. A lot of people
think they have this thing fully figured out and I have some doubts
there since their explanations seem to differ from the mechanics I have
talked to that are Russians themselves and were trained in that country.
I know that my personal understanding is much less than complete to put
it mildly. I do not have the personal first hand experience to back
this up, but from what I have seen one Russian do, it appears that the
"P" model engines that I have seen stumble are usually able to be cured
without plugging the accel pump. Some cases have required changing air
bleed jets to values that "by the book" seemed to be rather extreme, but
the change then allowed the accel pump jet to be pretty much left
alone, or operated withinn normal ranges but never plugged. This is
problematic in that this puts strong suspicion on proper operation of
the diaphragms in that the engine was possibly over rich in the
transition range to begin with. My comment about P vs. PF engines was
not meant to imply that the problem could not happen with a P model, but
that in every case I have seen it could be cured by exercising the
complete range of adjustments possible with this carb, further that
while it may have been tried and used successfully with the P model,
that according to my sources, it was originally intended for the PF
model where this problem happens more often. I am not sure who
"invented" this mod.... Seems to me I was told once... might have been
you, George Coy, I really am not sure. I hope someone chimes in
regarding this so that if I am wrong on that point, I can be
corrected. Given that there is no magic in how an engine burns fuel,
and that there are a lot of P models that run perfectly without the
accel jet plugged, it seems to me that an engine that does not run right
has something out of adjustment (or just not working right internally)
and does not need a carb design change. No question that the mod works
on some engines, but to me it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Bottom line, no one around here has a flow bench
for these things that I know of, or has tried to truly tackle
over-hauling one and then charting the flow curves on this side of the
pond, and since the darn things are no longer in production, long term
users may eventually switch to fuel injection anyway.
While New Bern is not a big airport for Russian
engines, we have had 5 aircraft with P model engines, all of which ran
perfectly without stumble, and another 4 with PF models, ALL of which
stumble some worse than others.
I was told that the carb does have a circuit for
WOT mixture enrichment. I was also informed the operator can pull the
throttle back until a very small change in manifold pressure is seen in
order to save fuel with minimum performance loss. Both pieces of info
came from Russian sources directly, if that means anything.
Mark Bitterlich
--------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:00:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
There are many, many M14P's, 360 HP engines that
exhibit the throttle response hesitation. The problem is not limited to
the PF engine only. The problem of throttle response hesitation can be
reduced by changing the accelerator pump jet down to a smaller diameter.
The smallest accelerator pump jet is .9 mm and I can say from
experience, changing to the .9 mm jet does not totally eliminate the
problem on those engines that exhibit the problem.
I too have plugged many an accelerator pump jet
to stop the hesitation problem on both P and PF engines. My opinion is,
the accelerator pump jet provides additional fuel during WOT which helps
to cool the cylinders (richer mixture). I'm not sure what the long term
impact might be by plugging the accelerator pump jet.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'll take some flames if necessary, but I feel
I must point out that this mod was actually intended for fixing the
throttle lag experienced in a lot of M-14PF model engines (400HP) and
NOT for the M-14P model, which is the straight 360 HP engine. A normal
M-14P engine should run perfectly WITHOUT needing this modification.
Point number two. Something that has worked
normally in the past, and then suddenly starts working abnormally, or in
a way different from in the past is usually happening because something
has changed and not because something needs to be modified. I think
this problem meets that description.
This particular engine lost power when
throttled back. It did not stumble and falter when the throttle was
advanced from idle on the deck. This does not sound like an accelerator
pump issue.... ice possibly, water in the fuel, low fuel pressure, a
tank venting problem, you name it... lots of possible causes, but I
would be very hesitant to recommend the accel pump mod on ANY engine for
the described problem.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK.
p.s. Run this by Sergei Boriak, or better yet
Vladimir Yastremski... I think you will find they will agree.
------------------------------------------------------
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:18:38 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
David, << We're removing a plug to
uncover the jet below it.>> Yes, #10 on the diagram is the plug (11mm)
that you pull to get to the jet.
The jet unscrews, comes out, has a
little hole in it. You plug that somehow..(weld, JB, etc.). Then
reinsert the jet and reinstall the 11mm plug.
My engine ran much better after the mod
with no noted lag in acceleration.
Eddie
--- On Sat, 12/20/08, DAVID STROUD
<dstroud@storm.ca> wrote:
From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 10:32
AM
I'm slightly confused now. We're
removing a plug to uncover the jet below it. Your last sentence says
'plug it and reinstall' , do you mean to
remove the jet, plug it ( the jet )
somehow, then reinstall the plugged jet and cover it with the first
plug? Is this process done on the Huosai
engine too ? thanks..
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:02
AM
Subject: Fw: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
I am not an expert by any means but I
agree on the ice theory. I also have a picture of the accel plug fix.
I would plug that if you have not already. The following info came from
Dennis a few years ago.
See attached. Item #10 is a plug (11 mm
I believe) and under the plug is the acceleration pump jet. The jet has
a slot in it just like a slotted screw. Use a straight blade
screwdriver to remove. Plug it and reinstall.
The figure is attached.
Eddie Moran
N320VT
Murphy Moose
--- On Thu, 12/18/08, markgreenway
<geewhizmark@gmail.com> wrote:
From: markgreenway
<geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 9:30
PM
"markgreenway"<geewhizmark@gmail.com>Hello Guys Any idea why I lost
power and had to make a forced landing ,because whencrossing midfield
for landing, the motor lost power when I throttled back. Itnever totally
died and it regained power once on the ground
------------------------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
The only reason that I am a little familiar with this is that we had several
new M14B engines converted to M14PF engines for a customer a few years ago.
The work was done at Motorstar, the Romanian factory. The were surprised at
the many differences and commented that the internal accessory drive shafts
and gears were much more substantial than the M14P shafts and gears. I also
know that the few M14B instillations have had trouble with the oil pump
fittings clearing the motor mounts.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I appreciate the enlightenment George. Up until your email and based on
other inputs from some pretty well informed people (at least I thought so
anyway), I deduced the B could be made into a P by simply changing the nose
case. I surely won't make that mistake again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: George Coy <mailto:george@gesoco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:06 AM
Subject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Dennis,
I do not pretend to know all the differences between the engines, but I
do know the M14P and M14B have a lot of differences including the
carburetor. Simply changing nose cases does not do it. The M14B was not
intended for aerobatic use and needs some internal changes to allow for
inverted operations. The accessory case drive and the oil pump are
different.
Be careful about these things.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
_____
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis
Savarese
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Eddie, the B and the P have the same carburetor. The only difference
between the B and the P is the nose case. R and R the nose case on the B
with a nose case from a P and you have a P engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie <mailto:eddiemoranii@yahoo.com> Moran
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
By the "same problem" I was referring to the hesitation when "advancing" the
thrust lever.
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Not that anyone cares.... but just to add to our knowledge base. My M14 is
a "B", had the same problem and was cured by the jet mod.
Eddie Moran
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
GREAT INFO!
Thanks!
Mark
_____
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:25:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Actually Mark, the JPI FS-450G is relatively inexpensive. Gulf Coast and
Pacific Coast Avionics are/were offering a $175 mail-in rebate making the
instrument about $305. LOTS of information for $305. Easy install. If you
decide to order one, make sure you order the FS-450G because the "G"
instrument includes the Floscan model 231 transducer.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I am glad to know that you have verified that with such a calibrated
instrument Dennis. I sure would like to have one of those things! You were
also correct about the P vs. the PF deal. I hate to be wrong, but it
appears that I clearly was, and Kevin was there to verify it from the very
beginning!
Mark Bitterlich
_____
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:15:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I acquired the "fix" from our friend George Coy.
All good input Mark. I also agree one can pull the throttle back until one
can see a slight decrease in MP and save fuel. This is proven by watching
the JPI fuel flow instrument installed in my airplane as well as others.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Was not trying to disagree or start an argument with you Dennis . Just did
not believe that this cure was applicable to the problem being described.
Respectfully, I still do not.
Regarding the stumble in throttle movement. I have talked to many people
about this pressure carb. A lot of people think they have this thing fully
figured out and I have some doubts there since their explanations seem to
differ from the mechanics I have talked to that are Russians themselves and
were trained in that country. I know that my personal understanding is much
less than complete to put it mildly. I do not have the personal first hand
experience to back this up, but from what I have seen one Russian do, it
appears that the "P" model engines that I have seen stumble are usually able
to be cured without plugging the accel pump. Some cases have required
changing air bleed jets to values that "by the book" seemed to be rather
extreme, but the change then allowed the accel pump jet to be pretty much
left alone, or operated withinn normal ranges but never plugged. This is
problematic in that this puts strong suspicion on proper operation of the
diaphragms in that the engine was possibly over rich in the transition
range to begin with. My comment about P vs. PF engines was not meant to
imply that the problem could not happen with a P model, but that in every
case I have seen it could be cured by exercising the complete range of
adjustments possible with this carb, further that while it may have been
tried and used successfully with the P model, that according to my sources,
it was originally intended for the PF model where this problem happens more
often. I am not sure who "invented" this mod.... Seems to me I was told
once... might have been you, George Coy, I really am not sure. I hope
someone chimes in regarding this so that if I am wrong on that point, I
can be corrected. Given that there is no magic in how an engine burns
fuel, and that there are a lot of P models that run perfectly without the
accel jet plugged, it seems to me that an engine that does not run right has
something out of adjustment (or just not working right internally) and does
not need a carb design change. No question that the mod works on some
engines, but to me it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Bottom line, no one around here has a flow bench for these things that I
know of, or has tried to truly tackle over-hauling one and then charting the
flow curves on this side of the pond, and since the darn things are no
longer in production, long term users may eventually switch to fuel
injection anyway.
While New Bern is not a big airport for Russian engines, we have had 5
aircraft with P model engines, all of which ran perfectly without stumble,
and another 4 with PF models, ALL of which stumble some worse than others.
I was told that the carb does have a circuit for WOT mixture enrichment. I
was also informed the operator can pull the throttle back until a very small
change in manifold pressure is seen in order to save fuel with minimum
performance loss. Both pieces of info came from Russian sources directly,
if that means anything.
Mark Bitterlich
_____
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:00:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
There are many, many M14P's, 360 HP engines that exhibit the throttle
response hesitation. The problem is not limited to the PF engine only. The
problem of throttle response hesitation can be reduced by changing the
accelerator pump jet down to a smaller diameter. The smallest accelerator
pump jet is .9 mm and I can say from experience, changing to the .9 mm jet
does not totally eliminate the problem on those engines that exhibit the
problem.
I too have plugged many an accelerator pump jet to stop the hesitation
problem on both P and PF engines. My opinion is, the accelerator pump jet
provides additional fuel during WOT which helps to cool the cylinders
(richer mixture). I'm not sure what the long term impact might be by
plugging the accelerator pump jet.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot <mailto:yakplt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'll take some flames if necessary, but I feel I must point out that this
mod was actually intended for fixing the throttle lag experienced in a lot
of M-14PF model engines (400HP) and NOT for the M-14P model, which is the
straight 360 HP engine. A normal M-14P engine should run perfectly WITHOUT
needing this modification.
Point number two. Something that has worked normally in the past, and then
suddenly starts working abnormally, or in a way different from in the past
is usually happening because something has changed and not because something
needs to be modified. I think this problem meets that description.
This particular engine lost power when throttled back. It did not stumble
and falter when the throttle was advanced from idle on the deck. This does
not sound like an accelerator pump issue.... ice possibly, water in the
fuel, low fuel pressure, a tank venting problem, you name it... lots of
possible causes, but I would be very hesitant to recommend the accel pump
mod on ANY engine for the described problem.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK.
p.s. Run this by Sergei Boriak, or better yet Vladimir Yastremski... I
think you will find they will agree.
_____
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:18:38 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
David, << We're removing a plug to uncover the jet below it.>> Yes, #10 on
the diagram is the plug (11mm) that you pull to get to the jet.
The jet unscrews, comes out, has a little hole in it. You plug that
somehow..(weld, JB, etc.). Then reinsert the jet and reinstall the 11mm
plug.
My engine ran much better after the mod with no noted lag in acceleration.
Eddie
--- On Sat, 12/20/08, DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca> wrote:
From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'm slightly confused now. We're removing a plug to uncover the jet below
it. Your last sentence says 'plug it and reinstall' , do you mean to
remove the jet, plug it ( the jet ) somehow, then reinstall the plugged jet
and cover it with the first plug? Is this process done on the Huosai
engine too ? thanks..
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran <mailto:eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: Fw: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
I am not an expert by any means but I agree on the ice theory. I also have
a picture of the accel plug fix. I would plug that if you have not already.
The following info came from Dennis a few years ago.
See attached. Item #10 is a plug (11 mm I believe) and under the plug is
the acceleration pump jet. The jet has a slot in it just like a slotted
screw. Use a straight blade screwdriver to remove. Plug it and reinstall.
The figure is attached.
Eddie Moran
N320VT
Murphy Moose
--- On Thu, 12/18/08, markgreenway <geewhizmark@gmail.com> wrote:
From: markgreenway <geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
<geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Hello Guys
Any idea why I lost power and had to make a forced landing ,because when
crossing midfield for landing, the motor lost power when I
throttled back. It
never totally died and it regained power once on the ground
_____
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
Thanks for the info George.
Merry Christmas,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: George Coy
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:11 AM
Subject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
The only reason that I am a little familiar with this is that we had
several new M14B engines converted to M14PF engines for a customer a few
years ago. The work was done at Motorstar, the Romanian factory. The
were surprised at the many differences and commented that the internal
accessory drive shafts and gears were much more substantial than the
M14P shafts and gears. I also know that the few M14B instillations have
had trouble with the oil pump fittings clearing the motor mounts.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:21 AM
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
I appreciate the enlightenment George. Up until your email and based
on other inputs from some pretty well informed people (at least I
thought so anyway), I deduced the B could be made into a P by simply
changing the nose case. I surely won't make that mistake again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: George Coy
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:06 AM
Subject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Dennis,
I do not pretend to know all the differences between the
engines, but I do know the M14P and M14B have a lot of differences
including the carburetor. Simply changing nose cases does not do it. The
M14B was not intended for aerobatic use and needs some internal changes
to allow for inverted operations. The accessory case drive and the oil
pump are different.
Be careful about these things.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis Savarese
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Eddie, the B and the P have the same carburetor. The only
difference between the B and the P is the nose case. R and R the nose
case on the B with a nose case from a P and you have a P engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
By the "same problem" I was referring to the hesitation when
"advancing" the thrust lever.
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52
m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:45 PM
Not that anyone cares.... but just to add to our
knowledge base. My M14 is a "B", had the same problem and was cured by
the jet mod.
Eddie Moran
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:31 PM
GREAT INFO!
Thanks!
Mark
----------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:25:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Actually Mark, the JPI FS-450G is relatively
inexpensive. Gulf Coast and Pacific Coast Avionics are/were offering a
$175 mail-in rebate making the instrument about $305. LOTS of
information for $305. Easy install. If you decide to order one, make
sure you order the FS-450G because the "G" instrument includes the
Floscan model 231 transducer.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I am glad to know that you have verified that
with such a calibrated instrument Dennis. I sure would like to have one
of those things! You were also correct about the P vs. the PF deal. I
hate to be wrong, but it appears that I clearly was, and Kevin was there
to verify it from the very beginning!
Mark Bitterlich
--------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:15:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I acquired the "fix" from our friend George Coy.
All good input Mark. I also agree one can pull
the throttle back until one can see a slight decrease in MP and save
fuel. This is proven by watching the JPI fuel flow instrument installed
in my airplane as well as others.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Was not trying to disagree or start an
argument with you Dennis . Just did not believe that this cure was
applicable to the problem being described. Respectfully, I still do
not.
Regarding the stumble in throttle movement. I
have talked to many people about this pressure carb. A lot of people
think they have this thing fully figured out and I have some doubts
there since their explanations seem to differ from the mechanics I have
talked to that are Russians themselves and were trained in that country.
I know that my personal understanding is much less than complete to put
it mildly. I do not have the personal first hand experience to back
this up, but from what I have seen one Russian do, it appears that the
"P" model engines that I have seen stumble are usually able to be cured
without plugging the accel pump. Some cases have required changing air
bleed jets to values that "by the book" seemed to be rather extreme, but
the change then allowed the accel pump jet to be pretty much left
alone, or operated withinn normal ranges but never plugged. This is
problematic in that this puts strong suspicion on proper operation of
the diaphragms in that the engine was possibly over rich in the
transition range to begin with. My comment about P vs. PF engines was
not meant to imply that the problem could not happen with a P model, but
that in every case I have seen it could be cured by exercising the
complete range of adjustments possible with this carb, further that
while it may have been tried and used successfully with the P model,
that according to my sources, it was originally intended for the PF
model where this problem happens more often. I am not sure who
"invented" this mod.... Seems to me I was told once... might have been
you, George Coy, I really am not sure. I hope someone chimes in
regarding this so that if I am wrong on that point, I can be
corrected. Given that there is no magic in how an engine burns fuel,
and that there are a lot of P models that run perfectly without the
accel jet plugged, it seems to me that an engine that does not run right
has something out of adjustment (or just not working right internally)
and does not need a carb design change. No question that the mod works
on some engines, but to me it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Bottom line, no one around here has a flow
bench for these things that I know of, or has tried to truly tackle
over-hauling one and then charting the flow curves on this side of the
pond, and since the darn things are no longer in production, long term
users may eventually switch to fuel injection anyway.
While New Bern is not a big airport for
Russian engines, we have had 5 aircraft with P model engines, all of
which ran perfectly without stumble, and another 4 with PF models, ALL
of which stumble some worse than others.
I was told that the carb does have a circuit
for WOT mixture enrichment. I was also informed the operator can pull
the throttle back until a very small change in manifold pressure is seen
in order to save fuel with minimum performance loss. Both pieces of
info came from Russian sources directly, if that means anything.
Mark Bitterlich
------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:00:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
There are many, many M14P's, 360 HP engines
that exhibit the throttle response hesitation. The problem is not
limited to the PF engine only. The problem of throttle response
hesitation can be reduced by changing the accelerator pump jet down to a
smaller diameter. The smallest accelerator pump jet is .9 mm and I can
say from experience, changing to the .9 mm jet does not totally
eliminate the problem on those engines that exhibit the problem.
I too have plugged many an accelerator pump
jet to stop the hesitation problem on both P and PF engines. My opinion
is, the accelerator pump jet provides additional fuel during WOT which
helps to cool the cylinders (richer mixture). I'm not sure what the
long term impact might be by plugging the accelerator pump jet.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'll take some flames if necessary, but I
feel I must point out that this mod was actually intended for fixing the
throttle lag experienced in a lot of M-14PF model engines (400HP) and
NOT for the M-14P model, which is the straight 360 HP engine. A normal
M-14P engine should run perfectly WITHOUT needing this modification.
Point number two. Something that has worked
normally in the past, and then suddenly starts working abnormally, or in
a way different from in the past is usually happening because something
has changed and not because something needs to be modified. I think
this problem meets that description.
This particular engine lost power when
throttled back. It did not stumble and falter when the throttle was
advanced from idle on the deck. This does not sound like an accelerator
pump issue.... ice possibly, water in the fuel, low fuel pressure, a
tank venting problem, you name it... lots of possible causes, but I
would be very hesitant to recommend the accel pump mod on ANY engine for
the described problem.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK.
p.s. Run this by Sergei Boriak, or better
yet Vladimir Yastremski... I think you will find they will agree.
----------------------------------------------------
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:18:38
AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
David, << We're removing a plug to
uncover the jet below it.>> Yes, #10 on the diagram is the plug (11mm)
that you pull to get to the jet.
The jet unscrews, comes out, has a
little hole in it. You plug that somehow..(weld, JB, etc.). Then
reinsert the jet and reinstall the 11mm plug.
My engine ran much better after the mod
with no noted lag in acceleration.
Eddie
--- On Sat, 12/20/08, DAVID STROUD
<dstroud@storm.ca> wrote:
From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 10:32
AM
I'm slightly confused now. We're
removing a plug to uncover the jet below it. Your last sentence says
'plug it and reinstall' , do you mean to
remove the jet, plug it ( the jet )
somehow, then reinstall the plugged jet and cover it with the first
plug? Is this process done on the Huosai
engine too ? thanks..
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:02
AM
Subject: Fw: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
I am not an expert by any means but I
agree on the ice theory. I also have a picture of the accel plug fix.
I would plug that if you have not already. The following info came from
Dennis a few years ago.
See attached. Item #10 is a plug (11 mm
I believe) and under the plug is the acceleration pump jet. The jet has
a slot in it just like a slotted screw. Use a straight blade
screwdriver to remove. Plug it and reinstall.
The figure is attached.
Eddie Moran
N320VT
Murphy Moose
--- On Thu, 12/18/08, markgreenway
<geewhizmark@gmail.com> wrote:
From: markgreenway
<geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 9:30
PM
"markgreenway"<geewhizmark@gmail.com>Hello Guys Any idea why I lost
power and had to make a forced landing ,because whencrossing midfield
for landing, the motor lost power when I throttled back. Itnever totally
died and it regained power once on the ground
------------------------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
George or Monty,
Can you comment on the M14B or D having different cam profiles and if so, does
it affect their rated horsepower?
Also, Monty, in your discussions with the Vendenyev guys, did you talk about the
reverse loading deal? As you well know, you see plenty of that in competition
acro as opposed to airshow stuff(not that there's an absence of it in airshows
either).
Thanks
Mike Hastings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220743#220743
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
Back in May of 2007 there was a thread on Matronics M14 List about the Mani
fold pressure that I was getting on my M14B.- I was getting about 905 mm
Hg which seemed high.- Here is a response from Dennis on that subject.
Eddie,
What RPM are you seeing and what RPM are you setting with the prop
governor? The M14P should develop about 880 MM (+,- 10) at sea level,
on a standard day at WOT. 905 seems a bit high, but that could also be
due to the accuracy or calibration of the manifold pressure gauge. What
does the Manifold pressure gauge read with the engine shut down?
Dennis""
I am wondering now if the "B" might really be putting out quite a bit more
power?
I think Dennis or George mentioned that the supercharger on a "B"
was 8.65/1 instead of 8/1.
Anyway, my Moose does not go inverted (at least on purpose) and the
engine seems to be very strong.
Merry Christmas to all,
Eddie Moran
--- On Tue, 12/23/08, mikspin <acromike@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mikspin <acromike@gmail.com>
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
<acromike@gmail.com>
George or Monty,
Can you comment on the M14B or D having different cam profiles and if so, d
oes
it affect their rated horsepower?
Also, Monty, in your discussions with the Vendenyev guys, did you talk abou
t
the reverse loading deal? As you well know, you see plenty of that in
competition acro as opposed to airshow stuff(not that there's an absence of
it in airshows either).
Thanks
Mike Hastings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220743#220743
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | M462RF (M14P) into car! |
Hi friends.
It`ll never take off for fly, but soon get ready for drive.
Already design and mod that car since 12 month with Walter/Avia
M462RF, the agriculture-Version of M14P.
We made 2 small movies for introduction to the public. Also can
find lots of more films and a picture gallery on my homepage.
This movie is from July 2008:
http://www.deutsche-werke.de/HG18.wmv
And this one is from November 2008, just the transmission
is uncompleted (we kidding the Chinese way of copy):
http://www.deutsche-werke.de/HG18-2.wmv
If you have questions, feel free to ask.
Yours, Uwe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220788#220788
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
The M14D does have a different profile on the cam. These engines were our
creation of turning a helicopter engine into an experimental aircraft
engine.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikspin
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:08 AM
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
George or Monty,
Can you comment on the M14B or D having different cam profiles and if so,
does it affect their rated horsepower?
Also, Monty, in your discussions with the Vendenyev guys, did you talk about
the reverse loading deal? As you well know, you see plenty of that in
competition acro as opposed to airshow stuff(not that there's an absence of
it in airshows either).
Thanks
Mike Hastings
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
Never confirmed personally, and I wish someone who knows for sure WOULD say
so, but I also heard that the "B" ,model spins the blower harder.- Not s
ure of the exact ratio but between the P and PF speed.- =0A=0AMark Bitter
lich=0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: A. Den
nis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics
.com=0ASent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:23:23 AM=0ASubject: Re: Re: M14PE
ngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0A=0AThanks for the in
fo George.=0AMerry Christmas,=0ADennis=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFr
om: George Coy =0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, Dece
mber 23, 2008 8:11 AM=0ASubject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak
52 m14p lose power?=0A=0AThe only reason that I am a little familiar with
this is that we had several new M14B engines converted to M14PF engines for
a customer a few years ago. The work was done at Motorstar, the-Romanian
factory. The were- surprised at the many differences and commented that
the internal accessory drive shafts and gears were much more substantial th
an the M14P shafts and gears. I also know that the few M14B instillations h
ave had trouble with the oil pump fittings clearing the motor mounts. =0A
=0AGeorge Coy=0ACoy Aircraft Sales=0A714 Airport Rd.=0ASwanton VT 05488=0A8
02-868-5633 off=0A802-363-5782 cell=0Ageorge.coy@gmail.com=0ASKYPE george.c
oy=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-m14pengines-li
st-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese=0ASent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:21 A
M=0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List:
Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0A=0AI appreciate the enlightenmen
t George.- Up until your email and based on other inputs from some pretty
well informed people (at least I thought so anyway), I-deduced the B cou
ld be made into a P by simply changing the nose case.- I surely won't mak
e that mistake again.=0ADennis=0A-=0A-=0A----- Original Message -----
=0AFrom: George Coy =0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday,
December 23, 2008 7:06 AM=0ASubject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would m
y Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0ADennis,=0A-----I do not pretend to
know all the differences between the engines, but I do know the M14P and M
14B have a lot of differences including the carburetor. Simply changing nos
e cases does not do it. The M14B was not intended for aerobatic use and nee
ds some internal changes to allow for inverted operations. The accessory ca
se drive and the oil pump are different. =0A-=0ABe careful about these th
ings.=0A=0AGeorge Coy=0ACoy Aircraft Sales=0A714 Airport Rd.=0ASwanton VT 0
5488=0A802-868-5633 off=0A802-363-5782 cell=0Ageorge.coy@gmail.com=0ASKYPE
george.coy=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-m14pen
gines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese=0ASent: Monday, December 22, 2008
4:59 PM=0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Re: M14PEngine
s-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0A=0AEddie, the B and the P
have the same carburetor.- The only difference between the B and the P i
s the nose case.- R and R the nose case on the B with a nose case from a
P and you have a P engine.=0ADennis=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFr
om: Eddie Moran =0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, Dece
mber 22, 2008 3:50 PM=0ASubject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak
52 m14p lose power?=0A=0ABy the "same problem" I was referring to the hesi
tation when "advancing" the thrust lever.=0A=0A--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Eddie
Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0AFrom: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@
yahoo.com>=0ASubject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lo
se power?=0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com=0ADate: Monday, December 22,
2008, 1:45 PM=0A=0A=0ANot that anyone cares.... but just to add to our kno
wledge base.- My M14 is a "B", had the same problem and was cured by the
jet mod.=0A=0AEddie Moran=0A=0A--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yaho
o.com> wrote:=0A=0AFrom: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>=0ASubject: Re: Re: M1
4PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0ATo: m14pengines-list
@matronics.com=0ADate: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:31 PM=0A=0A=0AGREAT INF
O!- =0A=0AThanks!=0A=0AMark=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0AFrom: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: m14p
engines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:25:46 AM=0AS
ubject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A
=0A=0AActually Mark, the JPI FS-450G is relatively inexpensive.- Gulf Coa
st and Pacific Coast Avionics are/were offering a $175-mail-in rebate mak
ing the instrument about $305.- LOTS of information for $305.- Easy ins
tall.- If you decide to order one, make sure you order the FS-450G becaus
e the "G" instrument includes the Floscan model 231 transducer.=0ADennis=0A
----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Yak Pilot =0ATo: m14pengines-list@mat
ronics.com =0ASent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:57 AM=0ASubject: Re: Re: M
14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0AI am glad to kno
w that you have verified that with such a calibrated instrument Dennis.-
I sure would like to have one of those things!- You were also correct abo
ut the P vs. the PF deal.- I hate to be wrong,-but it appears that I cl
early was, and Kevin was there to verify it from the very beginning!- =0A
=0AMark Bitterlich=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF
rom: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: m14pengines-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:15:46 AM=0ASubject: Re:
Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0A=0AI acqui
red the "fix" from our friend George Coy.=0A-=0AAll good input Mark.- I
also agree one can pull the throttle back until one can see a slight decre
ase in MP and save fuel.- This is proven by watching the JPI fuel flow in
strument installed in my airplane as well as others.=0A-=0ADennis=0A=0A--
--- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Yak Pilot =0ATo: m14pengines-list@matro
nics.com =0ASent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:01 PM=0ASubject: Re: Re: M14
PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0AWas not trying to
disagree or start an argument with you Dennis .- Just did not believe tha
t this cure was applicable to the problem being described.- Respectfully,
I still do not.- =0A=0ARegarding the stumble in throttle movement.- I
have talked to many people about this pressure carb.- A lot of people thi
nk they have this thing fully figured out and I have some doubts there sinc
e their explanations seem to differ from the mechanics I have talked to tha
t are Russians themselves and were trained in that country.- I know that
my personal understanding is much less than complete to put it mildly.- I
do not have the personal first hand experience to back this up, but from w
hat I have seen one Russian do, it appears that the "P" model engines that
I have seen stumble are usually able to be cured without plugging the accel
pump.- Some cases have required changing air bleed jets to values that "
by the book" seemed to be rather extreme, but the change then allowed the a
ccel pump jet to be pretty much- left alone, or operated withinn normal r
anges but never plugged.- This is problematic in that this puts strong su
spicion on proper
operation of the diaphragms in that the-engine was possibly over rich in
the transition -range to begin with. -My comment about P vs. PF engine
s was not meant to imply that the problem could not happen with a P model,
but that in every case I have seen it could be cured by exercising the comp
lete range of adjustments possible with this carb, further that while it ma
y have been tried and used successfully with the P model, that according to
my sources, it was originally intended for the PF model where this problem
happens more often.- I am not sure who "invented" this mod.... Seems to
me I was told once... might have been you, George Coy,- I really am not s
ure.- I hope someone chimes in regarding this so that if I am wrong on th
at point,---I can be corrected.-- Given that there is no magic in
how an engine burns fuel, and that there are a lot of P models that run pe
rfectly without the accel jet plugged, it seems to me that an engine that d
oes
not run right has something out of adjustment (or just not working right i
nternally) and does not need a carb design change.- No question that the
mod works on some engines, but to me it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay
Paul.- =0A=0ABottom line, no one around here has a flow bench for these
things that I know of, or has tried to truly tackle over-hauling one and th
en charting the flow curves on this side of the pond, and since the darn th
ings are no longer in production, long term users may eventually switch to
fuel injection anyway.-- =0A=0AWhile New Bern is not a big airport for
Russian engines,-we have had 5 aircraft with P model engines, all of whic
h ran perfectly without stumble, and another 4 with PF models, ALL of which
stumble some worse than others.- =0A=0A=0AI was told that the carb does
have a circuit for WOT mixture enrichment.- I was also informed the opera
tor can pull the throttle back until a very small change in manifold pressu
re is seen in order to save fuel with minimum performance loss.- Both pie
ces of info came from Russian sources directly, if that means anything.-
=0A-=0AMark Bitterlich=0A-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AF
rom: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: m14pengines-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:00:34 PM=0ASubject: Re:
Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0A=0AMark,
=0AThere are many, many M14P's, 360 HP engines that exhibit the throttle re
sponse hesitation.- The problem is not limited to the PF engine only.-
The problem of throttle response hesitation can be reduced by-changing th
e accelerator pump jet down to-a smaller diameter.- The smallest accele
rator pump jet is .9-mm and I can say from experience, changing to the .9
mm jet does not totally eliminate the problem on those engines that exhibi
t the problem.=0A-=0AI too have plugged many an accelerator pump jet to s
top the hesitation problem on both P and PF engines.- My opinion is, the
accelerator pump jet provides additional fuel during WOT-which helps-to
cool the cylinders (richer mixture).- I'm not sure what the long term im
pact might be by plugging the accelerator pump jet.=0A-=0ADennis=0A-=0A
----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Yak Pilot =0ATo: m14pengines-list@mat
ronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: Re: M1
4PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0AI'll take some fl
ames if necessary, but I feel I must point out that this mod was actually i
ntended for fixing the throttle lag experienced in a lot of M-14PF model en
gines (400HP) and NOT for the M-14P model, which is the straight 360 HP eng
ine.- A normal M-14P engine should run perfectly WITHOUT needing this mod
ification.- =0A=0APoint number two.- Something that has worked normally
in the past, and then suddenly starts working abnormally, or in a way diff
erent from in the past is usually happening because something has changed a
nd not because something needs to be modified.- I think this problem meet
s that description.- =0A=0AThis particular engine lost power when throttl
ed back.- It did not stumble and falter when the throttle was advanced fr
om idle on the deck.- This does not sound like an accelerator pump issue.
... ice possibly, water in the fuel, low fuel pressure, a tank venting prob
lem, you name it... lots of possible causes, but I would be very hesitant t
o recommend the accel pump mod on ANY engine for the described problem.-
=0A=0ARespectfully, =0A=0AMark Bitterlich =0AN50YK.- =0A=0Ap.s.- Run th
is by Sergei Boriak, or better yet Vladimir Yastremski... I think you will
find they will agree.- =0A=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________
______=0AFrom: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>=0ATo: m14pengines-list@
matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:18:38 AM=0ASubject: Re
: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0A=0ADavid,
<<We're removing a plug to uncover the jet below it.>>- Yes, #10 on the
diagram is the plug (11mm) that you pull to get to the jet.=0A=0AThe jet un
screws, comes out, has a little hole in it.- You plug that somehow..(weld
, JB, etc.).- Then reinsert the jet and reinstall the 11mm plug.- =0A
=0AMy engine ran much better after the mod with no noted lag in acceleratio
n.=0A=0AEddie=0A=0A=0A=0A--- On Sat, 12/20/08, DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.
ca> wrote:=0A=0AFrom: DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca>=0ASubject: Re: Re: M1
4PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0ATo: m14pengines-list
@matronics.com=0ADate: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 10:32 AM=0A=0A=0AI'm sl
ightly confused now. We're removing a plug to uncover the jet below it. You
r last sentence says--- 'plug it and reinstall' , do you mean to =0Ar
emove the jet, plug it ( the jet ) somehow, then reinstall the plugged jet
and cover it with the first plug? Is this process done on the Huosai =0Aeng
ine too ? thanks..=0A-=0ADavid Stroud---- Ottawa, Canada=0AChrist
avia C-FDWS=0AFairchild 51 replica=0Aunder- construction C-FYXV=0A----- O
riginal Message ----- =0AFrom: Eddie Moran =0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronic
s.com =0ASent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:02 AM=0ASubject: Fw: Re: M14P
Engines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0A=0AMark,- =0A=0AI am
not an expert by any means but I agree on the ice theory.- I also have a
picture of the accel plug fix.- I would plug that if you have not alread
y.- The following info came from Dennis a few years ago.=0A=0A=0A=0ASee a
ttached.- Item #10 is a plug (11 mm I believe) and under the plug is the
acceleration pump jet.- The jet has a slot in it just like a slotted scre
w.- Use a straight blade screwdriver to remove.- Plug it and reinstall.
=0A=0AThe figure is attached.=0A=0AEddie Moran=0AN320VT =0AMurphy Moose=0A
=0A--- On Thu, 12/18/08, markgreenway <geewhizmark@gmail.com> wrote:=0A=0AF
rom: markgreenway <geewhizmark@gmail.com>=0ASubject: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?=0ATo: m14pengines-list@matronics.com=0ADat
e: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 9:30 PM=0A=0A=0A--> M14PEngines-List messag
e posted by: "markgreenway"=0A<geewhizmark@gmail.com>=0A=0AHello Guys=0A=0A
Any idea why I lost power and had to make a forced landing ,because whe
n=0Acrossing midfield for landing, the motor lost power when I=0A throttled
back. It=0Anever totally died and it regained power once on the ground=0A
=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A=0A 3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
Here's the info I found from several different sources:
M14P M14B
Blower ratio: 8.16 to 1 8.65 to 1
Comp ratio: 6.3 to 1 6.2 to 1
HP: 290 continuous 300
continuous
HP: 360 for 10 minutes 350 for 30
minutes
A little higher blower ratio traded for a little lower compression
ratio. Maybe so you can run it at the higher continuous power settings
for a longer period?
Mark Davis
N44YK
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Never confirmed personally, and I wish someone who knows for sure
WOULD say so, but I also heard that the "B" ,model spins the blower
harder. Not sure of the exact ratio but between the P and PF speed.
Mark Bitterlich
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:23:23 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Thanks for the info George.
Merry Christmas,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: George Coy
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:11 AM
Subject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
The only reason that I am a little familiar with this is that we had
several new M14B engines converted to M14PF engines for a customer a few
years ago. The work was done at Motorstar, the Romanian factory. The
were surprised at the many differences and commented that the internal
accessory drive shafts and gears were much more substantial than the
M14P shafts and gears. I also know that the few M14B instillations have
had trouble with the oil pump fittings clearing the motor mounts.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis Savarese
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:21 AM
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
I appreciate the enlightenment George. Up until your email and
based on other inputs from some pretty well informed people (at least I
thought so anyway), I deduced the B could be made into a P by simply
changing the nose case. I surely won't make that mistake again.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: George Coy
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:06 AM
Subject: RE: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Dennis,
I do not pretend to know all the differences between the
engines, but I do know the M14P and M14B have a lot of differences
including the carburetor. Simply changing nose cases does not do it. The
M14B was not intended for aerobatic use and needs some internal changes
to allow for inverted operations. The accessory case drive and the oil
pump are different.
Be careful about these things.
George Coy
Coy Aircraft Sales
714 Airport Rd.
Swanton VT 05488
802-868-5633 off
802-363-5782 cell
george.coy@gmail.com
SKYPE george.coy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A.
Dennis Savarese
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
Eddie, the B and the P have the same carburetor. The only
difference between the B and the P is the nose case. R and R the nose
case on the B with a nose case from a P and you have a P engine.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose
power?
By the "same problem" I was referring to the hesitation
when "advancing" the thrust lever.
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my Yak 52
m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:45 PM
Not that anyone cares.... but just to add to our
knowledge base. My M14 is a "B", had the same problem and was cured by
the jet mod.
Eddie Moran
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 1:31 PM
GREAT INFO!
Thanks!
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:25:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Actually Mark, the JPI FS-450G is relatively
inexpensive. Gulf Coast and Pacific Coast Avionics are/were offering a
$175 mail-in rebate making the instrument about $305. LOTS of
information for $305. Easy install. If you decide to order one, make
sure you order the FS-450G because the "G" instrument includes the
Floscan model 231 transducer.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I am glad to know that you have verified that
with such a calibrated instrument Dennis. I sure would like to have one
of those things! You were also correct about the P vs. the PF deal. I
hate to be wrong, but it appears that I clearly was, and Kevin was there
to verify it from the very beginning!
Mark Bitterlich
------------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:15:46 AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I acquired the "fix" from our friend George
Coy.
All good input Mark. I also agree one can
pull the throttle back until one can see a slight decrease in MP and
save fuel. This is proven by watching the JPI fuel flow instrument
installed in my airplane as well as others.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Was not trying to disagree or start an
argument with you Dennis . Just did not believe that this cure was
applicable to the problem being described. Respectfully, I still do
not.
Regarding the stumble in throttle movement.
I have talked to many people about this pressure carb. A lot of people
think they have this thing fully figured out and I have some doubts
there since their explanations seem to differ from the mechanics I have
talked to that are Russians themselves and were trained in that country.
I know that my personal understanding is much less than complete to put
it mildly. I do not have the personal first hand experience to back
this up, but from what I have seen one Russian do, it appears that the
"P" model engines that I have seen stumble are usually able to be cured
without plugging the accel pump. Some cases have required changing air
bleed jets to values that "by the book" seemed to be rather extreme, but
the change then allowed the accel pump jet to be pretty much left
alone, or operated withinn normal ranges but never plugged. This is
problematic in that this puts strong suspicion on proper operation of
the diaphragms in that the engine was possibly over rich in the
transition range to begin with. My comment about P vs. PF engines was
not meant to imply that the problem could not happen with a P model, but
that in every case I have seen it could be cured by exercising the
complete range of adjustments possible with this carb, further that
while it may have been tried and used successfully with the P model,
that according to my sources, it was originally intended for the PF
model where this problem happens more often. I am not sure who
"invented" this mod.... Seems to me I was told once... might have been
you, George Coy, I really am not sure. I hope someone chimes in
regarding this so that if I am wrong on that point, I can be
corrected. Given that there is no magic in how an engine burns fuel,
and that there are a lot of P models that run perfectly without the
accel jet plugged, it seems to me that an engine that does not run right
has something out of adjustment (or just not working right internally)
and does not need a carb design change. No question that the mod works
on some engines, but to me it is a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Bottom line, no one around here has a flow
bench for these things that I know of, or has tried to truly tackle
over-hauling one and then charting the flow curves on this side of the
pond, and since the darn things are no longer in production, long term
users may eventually switch to fuel injection anyway.
While New Bern is not a big airport for
Russian engines, we have had 5 aircraft with P model engines, all of
which ran perfectly without stumble, and another 4 with PF models, ALL
of which stumble some worse than others.
I was told that the carb does have a circuit
for WOT mixture enrichment. I was also informed the operator can pull
the throttle back until a very small change in manifold pressure is seen
in order to save fuel with minimum performance loss. Both pieces of
info came from Russian sources directly, if that means anything.
Mark Bitterlich
----------------------------------------------------
From: A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812@bellsouth.net>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:00:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why would
my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
There are many, many M14P's, 360 HP engines
that exhibit the throttle response hesitation. The problem is not
limited to the PF engine only. The problem of throttle response
hesitation can be reduced by changing the accelerator pump jet down to a
smaller diameter. The smallest accelerator pump jet is .9 mm and I can
say from experience, changing to the .9 mm jet does not totally
eliminate the problem on those engines that exhibit the problem.
I too have plugged many an accelerator pump
jet to stop the hesitation problem on both P and PF engines. My opinion
is, the accelerator pump jet provides additional fuel during WOT which
helps to cool the cylinders (richer mixture). I'm not sure what the
long term impact might be by plugging the accelerator pump jet.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: Yak Pilot
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
I'll take some flames if necessary, but I
feel I must point out that this mod was actually intended for fixing the
throttle lag experienced in a lot of M-14PF model engines (400HP) and
NOT for the M-14P model, which is the straight 360 HP engine. A normal
M-14P engine should run perfectly WITHOUT needing this modification.
Point number two. Something that has
worked normally in the past, and then suddenly starts working
abnormally, or in a way different from in the past is usually happening
because something has changed and not because something needs to be
modified. I think this problem meets that description.
This particular engine lost power when
throttled back. It did not stumble and falter when the throttle was
advanced from idle on the deck. This does not sound like an accelerator
pump issue.... ice possibly, water in the fuel, low fuel pressure, a
tank venting problem, you name it... lots of possible causes, but I
would be very hesitant to recommend the accel pump mod on ANY engine for
the described problem.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
N50YK.
p.s. Run this by Sergei Boriak, or better
yet Vladimir Yastremski... I think you will find they will agree.
--------------------------------------------------
From: Eddie Moran <eddiemoranii@yahoo.com>
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:18:38
AM
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
David, << We're removing a plug to
uncover the jet below it.>> Yes, #10 on the diagram is the plug (11mm)
that you pull to get to the jet.
The jet unscrews, comes out, has a
little hole in it. You plug that somehow..(weld, JB, etc.). Then
reinsert the jet and reinstall the 11mm plug.
My engine ran much better after the mod
with no noted lag in acceleration.
Eddie
--- On Sat, 12/20/08, DAVID STROUD
<dstroud@storm.ca> wrote:
From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud@storm.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 10:32
AM
I'm slightly confused now. We're
removing a plug to uncover the jet below it. Your last sentence says
'plug it and reinstall' , do you mean to
remove the jet, plug it ( the jet )
somehow, then reinstall the plugged jet and cover it with the first
plug? Is this process done on the Huosai
engine too ? thanks..
David Stroud Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 replica
under construction C-FYXV
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Moran
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:02
AM
Subject: Fw: Re: M14PEngines-List: Why
would my Yak 52 m14p lose power?
Mark,
I am not an expert by any means but I
agree on the ice theory. I also have a picture of the accel plug fix.
I would plug that if you have not already. The following info came from
Dennis a few years ago.
See attached. Item #10 is a plug (11 mm
I believe) and under the plug is the acceleration pump jet. The jet has
a slot in it just like a slotted screw. Use a straight blade
screwdriver to remove. Plug it and reinstall.
The figure is attached.
Eddie Moran
N320VT
Murphy Moose
--- On Thu, 12/18/08, markgreenway
<geewhizmark@gmail.com> wrote:
From: markgreenway
<geewhizmark@gmail.com>
Subject: M14PEngines-List: Why would my
Yak 52 m14p lose power?
To: m14pengines-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 18, 2008, 9:30
PM
"markgreenway"<geewhizmark@gmail.com>Hello Guys Any idea why I lost
power and had to make a forced landing ,because whencrossing midfield
for landing, the motor lost power when I throttled back. Itnever totally
died and it regained power once on the ground
------------------------------------------------
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Checked by AVG.
Release Date: 12/22/2008 11:23 AM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Why would my Yak 52 m14p lose power? |
I dunno know nothin' about nothin'.....but I would like to wish all my
friends here a very Merry Christmas!
Dan Horton
Message 12
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| Subject: | M462RF (M14P) into car! |
Incredible, a Trabant with an M14P !!!!
If that thing ever drives, then I want to see it!
Jan Mevis
YK50
RA2005K
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-m14pengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Deutsche-Werke
Sent: dinsdag 23 december 2008 19:11
Subject: M14PEngines-List: M462RF (M14P) into car!
<wulf@deutsche-werke.de>
Hi friends.
It`ll never take off for fly, but soon get ready for drive.
Already design and mod that car since 12 month with Walter/Avia
M462RF, the agriculture-Version of M14P.
We made 2 small movies for introduction to the public. Also can
find lots of more films and a picture gallery on my homepage.
This movie is from July 2008:
http://www.deutsche-werke.de/HG18.wmv
And this one is from November 2008, just the transmission
is uncompleted (we kidding the Chinese way of copy):
http://www.deutsche-werke.de/HG18-2.wmv
If you have questions, feel free to ask.
Yours, Uwe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220788#220788
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