Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:22 AM - Radial engine: more pro than con? (Chris In Madison)
2. 11:46 AM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (ScottA)
3. 11:54 AM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (Chris In Madison)
4. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (George Coy)
5. 12:01 PM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (ScottA)
6. 12:03 PM - Air cleaners (George Coy)
7. 12:07 PM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (ScottA)
8. 12:31 PM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (Chris In Madison)
9. 12:32 PM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (Chris In Madison)
10. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (George Coy)
11. 01:01 PM - Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (ScottA)
12. 01:03 PM - Re: Air cleaners (ScottA)
13. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Air cleaners (George Coy)
14. 10:27 PM - Re: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? (bob tripp)
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| Subject: | Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Hello all,
I'm curious about the radial engine as a powerplant for the Moose and wondered
how those flying feel about it. I've been perusing a number of sites dedicated
to the Moose, spending a lot of time going through GoFLyAMoose.com and one or
two others. On one of the sites, there was a article going over the engine
in general, and it made it out to be (or at least I read it that way) that the
engine is a potential maintenance hassle. Oil seeping into the combustion chambers,
broken/bent connecting rods, etc. The overall air of the article didn't
seem positive to me.
That being the case, however, Murphy makes a pretty strong point that this engine
is more power for half the price of a comparable Lyc or Continental. So with
that in mind, do you feel that the radial is the best fit for this plane, dollar
for dollar? Can your average A/P maintain one of these engines, or would
I need to seek out special service?
Also, what is fuel consumption on the radial compared to the (I)O-540/550?
Thanks and best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54677#54677
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
Chris, I replied over 2 hours ago on this and it hasn't shown up yet. I am on
the forum page of Matronics now. If it doesn't show up soon I will re-post.
Scott
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54721#54721
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Thanks Scott,
The Matronics forums is where I usually post messages as well instead of email.
Appreciate you taking the time :-)
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54723#54723
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
Chris, I guess I know a lot of people who swear by them and no one who
swears at them, but I am a dealer and probably biased. (I have logged over
2000 hours behind them in many different aircraft)
George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ScottA
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 1:47 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
Chris, I replied over 2 hours ago on this and it hasn't shown up yet. I am
on the forum page of Matronics now. If it doesn't show up soon I will
re-post.
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54721#54721
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
This may end up a double post apologies in advance but the regular email is taking
for ever to come through so I will post from the forum now.
Chris, I would be interested in what article you read.
I don't have "a lot" of operational experience yet but we are nearly complete with
our 40 hours.
As you have read you can't just jump in the M14 hit the starter and go. However
following the simple guidelines in the Russian manual and the hydraulic lock
is a non issue.
After shutdown most of the oil tends to drain down to the main oil sump. If this
sump gets overfull then it can flow over into the lower cylinders (it will
get into the lower cylinders even if the sump is not full but it is worse when
the sump is full). The Russian's have you run the engine up to 1900 RPM or so
for 30 second before shutdown to make the lower sump pump more effective and
pump the oil out, giving room for the oil to drain. Also, a lot of us have installed
"clean kits" which you probably already know are pumps the suck the oil
out of the sump and send it back to the tank making room for the oil to drain.
The lower cylinders also have intake manifold drains. The manual only has
you draining these if suspected hydraulic lock or after engine has been shutdown
for a period of time. As part of most "clean kits" these three drains are
interconnected and have a quick drain on them. This is a "must have" as oil
always comes out the drain and without it you would have to remove the cowl to
get to the manifold drain plugs.
Some articles make it sound like you can not feel the hydraulic lock and will bend
a rod pulling it through. I don't believe that, with just a little experience
it is very obvious when it starts to feel "hard" to pull. Then it is just
a matter of removing the bottom three sparks plugs, opening the manifold drain
and pulling the prop through until the oil drains out the exhaust and the manifold
drain. Hassle - maybe, but I can do it in two or three minutes and it
is part of the price to play the game. I have the automotive spark plug conversion
so it is easy to pull off the plug wires and I carry a spark plug wrench
all set to go. If you go out on a weekend of flying you may only have to do
this the first time, as it usually takes three days or so of sitting around (but
not always) to fill things up. I generally run my sump pump out after shutdown,
close the main oil tank shutoff valve, open the manifold drain and then
before I leave the airplane pull the prop through a few times and drain out any
oil that has already gotten into the cylinders.
I still don't think it can be beat, bang for the buck. My fuel flow hasn't been
totally "calibrated" yet but if I believe my FF indicator I am getting between
13.5 GPH and 15 GPH at cruise settings(which for my Moose is about 105 to 110
Knots indicated, true in the 115 to 120 range (knots). This is all up high
(8 to 10 thousand feet) as I haven't flown below that altitude yet.
The Russian maintenance manual that comes (or should come) with the Russian engines
is very specific in all the normal maintenance ("tasks" as they call them)and
has cards that spell out exactly what to do in step by step order even telling
what tool to use from the Russian tool kit. If a major problem should occur
than special help may be in order but I would think any AP could figure it
out with the help of the few vendors and shops experienced with the M14.
I don't want to make it sound all rosy either. It can be a pain in the butt pulling
the prop through, jump inside run the primer, jump back out, pull the prop
through, jump back in hit the starter - to have it not start and have to repeat
all over. Again part of the price to play - and it usually does start. I
made it my first 30 hours without ever running out the starter air bottle. Then
on a cool morning I final did run out (I don't think I was priming it enough
for the cooler temps) I think once I get used to the cooler wx starts that won't
be a problem.
Have to run, hope that helps a little.
Scott
Moose 174SL
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I have been asked over the years to recommend an air cleaner for the M14. I
recently saw an instillation with a Marine stainless steel flame arrestor
that also sported a foam air cleaner jacket. The flame arrestor is a good
idea. Check Holley part number 720-22.
I have experienced many carb fires over the years with back fires during
starting and I still watch the carb air temp gage like a hawk when starting
a Yak. If you have enough air to continue (or battery) you can usually suck
them back into the engine without any damage.
George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
Just to go alone with George's comments - I have sworn at mine - but it turned
out to be my fault, not the M14, so I had to apologize. [Wink]
Scott
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54731#54731
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Many thanks Scott, George, for your thoughts.
The article you asked about, Scott, is the article from your site authored by Fred
Abramson. I guess when the article's first paragraph mentioned says, "...the
M14P may have some surprises in store for you. Expensive surprises. Maybe
even scary surprises", a guy like me could develop a negative image from the
get-go.
The look of the rotary engine on the Moose is just too amazing to ignore, and the
fuel-flow numbers you estimated are a lot lower than I expected them to be.
That's quite welcome! I was worried that they were going to far exceed their
flat-bodied counterparts.
I can accept that if one want to use this kind of engine that one has to accept
the side effects (if you will). Interestingly, a couple of hours after I first
posted this message, I thought I'd peruse the M14 forums to see what kind of
information is available, and I ran across references to some of the specialized
kits made available from vendors to minimize some of those side effects.
It appears that this engine is rather well supported in the U.S. Seeing that
some of these engines make their way to ag aircraft, and living here in the middle
of corn and cow country, it seems reasonable that one might find service
for an M14 within a reasonable distance.
Regarding the Russian maintenance manual of which you spoke, I presume there is
a translation available, or are there lots of circles and arrows? :-) Of the
limited things I've read, in addition to your comments, the engine's service
manuals are said to be very well laid out and cover the material thoroughly.
That would be a great benefit, to be sure. I would appreciate any direction to
other references to this engine if you're aware of any.
Thanks again for taking the time to write. I'm looking forward to continued reading
of your Moose adventures, along with any trials and tribulations related
to the airframe. I'm trying to stay on top of the tailwheel bulkead and elevator
cracking incidents and see if Murphy addresses them before I'm ready to build
anything.
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54743#54743
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Also, Scott, did I see you have a GRT EIS in your Moose? If that was your plane,
was that a specially programmed unit?
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54744#54744
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
Send me an E-mail off list and I will send you (free) a CD with all English
manuals and instillation notes.
George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
In Madison
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:31 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Many thanks Scott, George, for your thoughts.
The article you asked about, Scott, is the article from your site authored
by Fred Abramson. I guess when the article's first paragraph mentioned
says, "...the M14P may have some surprises in store for you. Expensive
surprises. Maybe even scary surprises", a guy like me could develop a
negative image from the get-go.
The look of the rotary engine on the Moose is just too amazing to ignore,
and the fuel-flow numbers you estimated are a lot lower than I expected them
to be. That's quite welcome! I was worried that they were going to far
exceed their flat-bodied counterparts.
I can accept that if one want to use this kind of engine that one has to
accept the side effects (if you will). Interestingly, a couple of hours
after I first posted this message, I thought I'd peruse the M14 forums to
see what kind of information is available, and I ran across references to
some of the specialized kits made available from vendors to minimize some of
those side effects. It appears that this engine is rather well supported in
the U.S. Seeing that some of these engines make their way to ag aircraft,
and living here in the middle of corn and cow country, it seems reasonable
that one might find service for an M14 within a reasonable distance.
Regarding the Russian maintenance manual of which you spoke, I presume there
is a translation available, or are there lots of circles and arrows? :-) Of
the limited things I've read, in addition to your comments, the engine's
service manuals are said to be very well laid out and cover the material
thoroughly. That would be a great benefit, to be sure. I would appreciate
any direction to other references to this engine if you're aware of any.
Thanks again for taking the time to write. I'm looking forward to continued
reading of your Moose adventures, along with any trials and tribulations
related to the airframe. I'm trying to stay on top of the tailwheel bulkead
and elevator cracking incidents and see if Murphy addresses them before I'm
ready to build anything.
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54743#54743
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
Yes, Fred's (whom I believe has passed away??) article seems to start out a little
negative but I don't think he really intended it that way - more like if you
can learn about some of this stuff from the start you can avoid the problems.
There are plenty of bent connecting rods due to the hydraulic lock issues,
but I would guess it is guys not following the recommended practices.
I can't quote the numbers exactly but I know of a Moose and a C-185 that flew side
by side with almost the same fuel flows. This same Moose will fly side by
side with a super cub in slow flight also (Steve R's on my website).
Yes, all the manuals have been translated to English.
I think Murphy "secretly" upgrades stuff all the time without telling anyone.
I "hear" (but have no proof) that certain skins are thicker here and there now.
Not sure why they don't tell the rest of us but I suspect everyone would think
they need the upgrade "free". I don't think they should, Cessna surely didn't
give out all there changes over the years "free".
I had a tail issue from a severe shimmy on my second landing. I then put a "real"
(i.e. real expensive) tail wheel on and went back to the original MAM stinger
with a steel rod inside and have had no issues since. Of course many variables
so don't know the exact cause but I believe a combination of too flexible
stinger and a poorly machined tail wheel (it was the "large" tail wheel from
MAM that is really an Elite nose wheel).
Someday I will put more "flying" related stuff on my site. I did just add a few
flying pictures.
Yes that is the GRT EIS. The Pitts 12 guys had them set it up for the M14. Works
great. I suspect with all the new stuff coming out an improved one will be
out soon. This works good though. Seems odd at first that it has 9 EGT and
3 CHT when you can not lean the mixture but you can tell a lot from just the diff
in EGTs. The Russians had only 2 cylinders with CHT indications and no EGTs.
Later,
Scott
174SL
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54754#54754
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| Subject: | Re: Air cleaners |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
Thanks George. I haven't had any luck with that part number yet on a search though.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54755#54755
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| Subject: | Re: Air cleaners |
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
Scott, Try this link
http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=59-3364
George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ScottA
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 3:04 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Re: Air cleaners
--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "ScottA" <s-aldrich@comcast.net>
Thanks George. I haven't had any luck with that part number yet on a search
though.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54755#54755
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| Subject: | Re: Radial engine: more pro than con? |
George-- We need one too, if that is possible. We have #255 under construction.
BobTripp
At 12:47 PM 08/14/2006, you wrote:
>--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
>
>Send me an E-mail off list and I will send you (free) a CD with all English
>manuals and instillation notes.
>
>George Coy
>President
>Gesoco Industries Inc.
>629 Airport Rd.
>Swanton, VT 05488
>TEL 802-868-5633
>FAX 802-868-4465
>Web Site www.gesoco.com
>e-mail George@gesoco.com
>Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chris
>In Madison
>Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:31 PM
>To: murphymoose-list@matronics.com
>Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Re: Radial engine: more pro than con?
>
>
>--> MurphyMoose-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
>
>Many thanks Scott, George, for your thoughts.
>
>The article you asked about, Scott, is the article from your site authored
>by Fred Abramson. I guess when the article's first paragraph mentioned
>says, "...the M14P may have some surprises in store for you. Expensive
>surprises. Maybe even scary surprises", a guy like me could develop a
>negative image from the get-go.
>
>The look of the rotary engine on the Moose is just too amazing to ignore,
>and the fuel-flow numbers you estimated are a lot lower than I expected them
>to be. That's quite welcome! I was worried that they were going to far
>exceed their flat-bodied counterparts.
>
>I can accept that if one want to use this kind of engine that one has to
>accept the side effects (if you will). Interestingly, a couple of hours
>after I first posted this message, I thought I'd peruse the M14 forums to
>see what kind of information is available, and I ran across references to
>some of the specialized kits made available from vendors to minimize some of
>those side effects. It appears that this engine is rather well supported in
>the U.S. Seeing that some of these engines make their way to ag aircraft,
>and living here in the middle of corn and cow country, it seems reasonable
>that one might find service for an M14 within a reasonable distance.
>
>Regarding the Russian maintenance manual of which you spoke, I presume there
>is a translation available, or are there lots of circles and arrows? :-) Of
>the limited things I've read, in addition to your comments, the engine's
>service manuals are said to be very well laid out and cover the material
>thoroughly. That would be a great benefit, to be sure. I would appreciate
>any direction to other references to this engine if you're aware of any.
>
>Thanks again for taking the time to write. I'm looking forward to continued
>reading of your Moose adventures, along with any trials and tribulations
>related to the airframe. I'm trying to stay on top of the tailwheel bulkead
>and elevator cracking incidents and see if Murphy addresses them before I'm
>ready to build anything.
>
>Best regards,
>Chris
>
>--------
>Chris Owens
>Waunakee, WI
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54743#54743
>
>
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