Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:12 AM - MAM demonstrators (Scott Aldrich)
2. 06:30 PM - Andair fuel valve leaking (Scott Aldrich)
3. 06:39 PM - Re: Andair fuel valve leaking (Ted Waltman)
4. 06:45 PM - Re: Andair fuel valve leaking (Scott Aldrich)
5. 06:52 PM - Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures (Ted Waltman)
6. 06:54 PM - Re: Andair fuel valve leaking (KJKimball@aol.com)
7. 07:17 PM - Re: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures (Scott Aldrich)
8. 07:17 PM - Re: Andair fuel valve leaking (Scott Aldrich)
9. 07:26 PM - Re: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures (Ted Waltman)
10. 07:30 PM - Re: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures (Scott Aldrich)
Message 1
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| Subject: | MAM demonstrators |
I just got an email from St=E9phane at MAM about their demonstrator
status.
They probably won=92t have a Moose demonstrator anytime soon. They are
working on the Yukon demonstrator. They also have the Radial Rebel
demonstrator and they are working on a LSA compliant Rebel demonstrator
as
well as radial powered Renegade.
So for now Moose guys will just have to catch a ride with a completed
builder.
FWIW
Scott
Message 2
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| Subject: | Andair fuel valve leaking |
Anybody else have an Andair fuel valve that lets fuel transfer from tank to
tank with the valve in the off position?
This is a L-R-Both-Off valve, FS20X4.
I've written to Andair tech support twice with no response either time.
No impressed.
FWIW
Scott
Message 3
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| Subject: | Andair fuel valve leaking |
Interesting about 1) their lack of response and 2) about the leak. Another
experienced builder gave their valves high marks. Maybe I'll rethink out
using them...
Thanks for the input.
Ted
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Aldrich
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Andair fuel valve leaking
Anybody else have an Andair fuel valve that lets fuel transfer from tank to
tank with the valve in the off position?
This is a L-R-Both-Off valve, FS20X4.
I've written to Andair tech support twice with no response either time.
No impressed.
FWIW
Scott
Message 4
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| Subject: | Andair fuel valve leaking |
I've always heard they were good valves - they must be as there are a lot
out there?? I know Steve's leaks also. If you fill one tank, overnight they
will be level.
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: MurphyMoose-List: Andair fuel valve leaking
Interesting about 1) their lack of response and 2) about the leak. Another
experienced builder gave their valves high marks. Maybe I'll rethink out
using them...
Thanks for the input.
Ted
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Aldrich
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Andair fuel valve leaking
Anybody else have an Andair fuel valve that lets fuel transfer from tank to
tank with the valve in the off position?
This is a L-R-Both-Off valve, FS20X4.
I've written to Andair tech support twice with no response either time.
No impressed.
FWIW
Scott
atronics.com/Navigator?MurphyMoose-List
Message 5
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| Subject: | Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures |
I'm working on my horizontal stab. I've looked at a couple of design
options for making a provision for the attachment of sea fins to the h-stab
tip rib.
My first question is in the below picture. I'm concerned if I put a .032
doubler and then later install the actual sea fin (out of .040 ?) whether
I'll have enough clearance for elevator travel.
My next question involves a the fact that my main stabilizer tip rib is an
older version, and I don't have the factory stabilizer hinge doubler. What
I propose to do is to in stall 3 channel-type brackets that would each pick
up 3 rivets on the top and bottom of the stringers--each as wide as the
space between the coke-bottle indentations in my stabilizer tip rib and be
flush riveted to the rib. A set of nut plates would also be installed in
each of these channel brackets (blue & black in the below picture) for the
sea fin attachment.
Then, to reinforce the front and rear tip rib attachment points to the main
and rear spar, I'm going to put in short .040 angles like the one big blue
area on the right of the picture (I know, graphics isn't my strong suit).
Opinions please?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Andair fuel valve leaking |
Scott,
Email with Andair can be slow. You would be better off calling Owen and
talking to him.
We have used their valves in many installations and have never had a leak
through issue. I did hear of one install done elsewhere that had a problem
similar to what you are seeing. It seemed like a leak through the valve that
was allowing the tanks to equalize in fuel level. As it turned out, the
builder of that high wing airplane did not use individual vents for the 2 tanks.
Instead he tied the two tanks together to a common vent and the fuel transfer
was actually through the vent lines not the valve. If you have a left and
right vent that are not connected, obviously, this cannot be the problem. If
you do have the vents tied together or any other common tie between the tanks,
you may have a bypass of the valve.
On another installation in a Pitts, the main tank drain and gascolator drain
were connected together to a common quick drain on the belly. Seems like a
simplt idea to eliminate one drain valve. The problem is that it created a
loop for the fuel around the selector valve allowing fuel to flow although at
a lower flow rate through th e1/4 drain lines. The engine ran and ran good
enough for run up before take off. Luckily, the pilot noticed the fuel was
off and the engine was running anyway and opted to check out why instead of fly
anyway possibly running low on fuel at take off power.
You could test the valve and fuel system by capping the output port of the
valve. Remove the line for one tank at the valve exposing that port. Select
the still attached tank and see if fuel leaks out the open port. If it does,
you have a valve issue. If not, you may have a system problem.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball,
VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
_www.jimkimballenterprises.com_ (http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/)
_www.pittsmodel12.com_ (http://www.pittsmodel12.com/)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures |
Ted, off the top of my head I would say No, not enough room for a doubler on
the outside of the stab rib. The seafins are a lot thicker than .040 and
they barely clear the elevator balance arms, any doublers would have to go
inside - in my opinion.
The angle front and back sound like a good idea.
Not sure what you mean by not having the stabilizer hinge doubler - is that
the stainless steel angle that MAM sent out for the hinge service bulletin?
They used to send those out free - it all came with the stuff to fix the
outboard wing rear spar aileron hinge bracket too.
Scott
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:52 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures
I'm working on my horizontal stab. I've looked at a couple of design
options for making a provision for the attachment of sea fins to the h-stab
tip rib.
My first question is in the below picture. I'm concerned if I put a .032
doubler and then later install the actual sea fin (out of .040 ?) whether
I'll have enough clearance for elevator travel.
My next question involves a the fact that my main stabilizer tip rib is an
older version, and I don't have the factory stabilizer hinge doubler. What
I propose to do is to in stall 3 channel-type brackets that would each pick
up 3 rivets on the top and bottom of the stringers--each as wide as the
space between the coke-bottle indentations in my stabilizer tip rib and be
flush riveted to the rib. A set of nut plates would also be installed in
each of these channel brackets (blue & black in the below picture) for the
sea fin attachment.
Then, to reinforce the front and rear tip rib attachment points to the main
and rear spar, I'm going to put in short .040 angles like the one big blue
area on the right of the picture (I know, graphics isn't my strong suit).
Opinions please?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Andair fuel valve leaking |
Thanks for the suggestions Kevin. I know it is not a vent issue - I do have
a vent in each tank and I do have a cross vent- however the cross vent goes
from the high point in the tip of one tank to the high point of the other
tip (a la Cessna).
Of course the valve is in a less than perfect spot to get at the lines but
that is what I will have to do to check it out.
Thanks again,
Scott
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
KJKimball@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: MurphyMoose-List: Andair fuel valve leaking
Scott,
Email with Andair can be slow. You would be better off calling Owen and
talking to him.
We have used their valves in many installations and have never had a leak
through issue. I did hear of one install done elsewhere that had a problem
similar to what you are seeing. It seemed like a leak through the valve
that was allowing the tanks to equalize in fuel level. As it turned out,
the builder of that high wing airplane did not use individual vents for the
2 tanks. Instead he tied the two tanks together to a common vent and the
fuel transfer was actually through the vent lines not the valve. If you
have a left and right vent that are not connected, obviously, this cannot be
the problem. If you do have the vents tied together or any other common tie
between the tanks, you may have a bypass of the valve.
On another installation in a Pitts, the main tank drain and gascolator drain
were connected together to a common quick drain on the belly. Seems like a
simplt idea to eliminate one drain valve. The problem is that it created a
loop for the fuel around the selector valve allowing fuel to flow although
at a lower flow rate through th e1/4 drain lines. The engine ran and ran
good enough for run up before take off. Luckily, the pilot noticed the fuel
was off and the engine was running anyway and opted to check out why instead
of fly anyway possibly running low on fuel at take off power.
You could test the valve and fuel system by capping the output port of the
valve. Remove the line for one tank at the valve exposing that port.
Select the still attached tank and see if fuel leaks out the open port. If
it does, you have a valve issue. If not, you may have a system problem.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com <http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/>
www.pittsmodel12.com <http://www.pittsmodel12.com/>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures |
The problem is those coke-can indentations. They effectively prevent me
from putting a doubler running the full length of the rib on the inside of
the rib. Based on your clearance comments, and my doubler issue above,
guess I better get the updated tip ribs from Murphy...along with the stab
hinge doubler. Darn... have to set the h-stab aside then.
What about the sturdiness of my sea fin attach channels idea?
Thank you,
Ted
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Aldrich
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: MurphyMoose-List: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2
pictures
Ted, off the top of my head I would say No, not enough room for a doubler on
the outside of the stab rib. The seafins are a lot thicker than .040 and
they barely clear the elevator balance arms, any doublers would have to go
inside - in my opinion.
The angle front and back sound like a good idea.
Not sure what you mean by not having the stabilizer hinge doubler - is that
the stainless steel angle that MAM sent out for the hinge service bulletin?
They used to send those out free - it all came with the stuff to fix the
outboard wing rear spar aileron hinge bracket too.
Scott
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:52 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures
I'm working on my horizontal stab. I've looked at a couple of design
options for making a provision for the attachment of sea fins to the h-stab
tip rib.
My first question is in the below picture. I'm concerned if I put a .032
doubler and then later install the actual sea fin (out of .040 ?) whether
I'll have enough clearance for elevator travel.
My next question involves a the fact that my main stabilizer tip rib is an
older version, and I don't have the factory stabilizer hinge doubler. What
I propose to do is to in stall 3 channel-type brackets that would each pick
up 3 rivets on the top and bottom of the stringers--each as wide as the
space between the coke-bottle indentations in my stabilizer tip rib and be
flush riveted to the rib. A set of nut plates would also be installed in
each of these channel brackets (blue & black in the below picture) for the
sea fin attachment.
Then, to reinforce the front and rear tip rib attachment points to the main
and rear spar, I'm going to put in short .040 angles like the one big blue
area on the right of the picture (I know, graphics isn't my strong suit).
Opinions please?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures |
I have pretty much what you describe to back up the nut plates - of course
un-tested as my floats are not on. Some of my doublers did cover those
indentations - I just put rivets where it was flush though.
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: MurphyMoose-List: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2
pictures
The problem is those coke-can indentations. They effectively prevent me
from putting a doubler running the full length of the rib on the inside of
the rib. Based on your clearance comments, and my doubler issue above,
guess I better get the updated tip ribs from Murphy...along with the stab
hinge doubler. Darn... have to set the h-stab aside then.
What about the sturdiness of my sea fin attach channels idea?
Thank you,
Ted
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Aldrich
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: MurphyMoose-List: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2
pictures
Ted, off the top of my head I would say No, not enough room for a doubler on
the outside of the stab rib. The seafins are a lot thicker than .040 and
they barely clear the elevator balance arms, any doublers would have to go
inside - in my opinion.
The angle front and back sound like a good idea.
Not sure what you mean by not having the stabilizer hinge doubler - is that
the stainless steel angle that MAM sent out for the hinge service bulletin?
They used to send those out free - it all came with the stuff to fix the
outboard wing rear spar aileron hinge bracket too.
Scott
_____
From: owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-murphymoose-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 7:52 PM
Subject: MurphyMoose-List: Moose Sea Fin design...2 questions & 2 pictures
I'm working on my horizontal stab. I've looked at a couple of design
options for making a provision for the attachment of sea fins to the h-stab
tip rib.
My first question is in the below picture. I'm concerned if I put a .032
doubler and then later install the actual sea fin (out of .040 ?) whether
I'll have enough clearance for elevator travel.
My next question involves a the fact that my main stabilizer tip rib is an
older version, and I don't have the factory stabilizer hinge doubler. What
I propose to do is to in stall 3 channel-type brackets that would each pick
up 3 rivets on the top and bottom of the stringers--each as wide as the
space between the coke-bottle indentations in my stabilizer tip rib and be
flush riveted to the rib. A set of nut plates would also be installed in
each of these channel brackets (blue & black in the below picture) for the
sea fin attachment.
Then, to reinforce the front and rear tip rib attachment points to the main
and rear spar, I'm going to put in short .040 angles like the one big blue
area on the right of the picture (I know, graphics isn't my strong suit).
Opinions please?
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