Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:37 AM - Re: weight balance (Rcaprd@aol.com)
2. 01:49 AM - Brodhead Weight & Ballance study (Rcaprd@aol.com)
3. 06:19 AM - Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans (Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta))
4. 06:57 AM - Fuel tank (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
5. 08:20 AM - Re: Fuel tank (Kent Hallsten)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans (DJ Vegh)
7. 01:45 PM - Re: weight balance (walter evans)
8. 03:42 PM - I'm a little bugged (walter evans)
9. 04:00 PM - Re: I'm a little bugged (Isablcorky@aol.com)
10. 04:42 PM - Re: I'm a little bugged (walter evans)
11. 05:20 PM - Re: I'm a little bugged (Hubbard, Eugene)
12. 06:35 PM - Re: I'm a little bugged (John Dilatush)
13. 06:56 PM - Re: I'm a little bugged (Jack Phillips)
14. 07:13 PM - Re: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study (John Dilatush)
15. 07:49 PM - Re: weight balance (Richard Navratril)
16. 08:37 PM - List of Contributors #1 - A Special Thank You... (Matt Dralle)
17. 09:16 PM - Re: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans (John McNarry)
18. 10:25 PM - Re: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans (DJ Vegh)
19. 11:48 PM - fuselage (rod wooller)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: weight balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 12/2/02 6:14:28 PM Central Standard Time,
horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
<< Does anyone have a full explanation of the complete process for a short
fuse with an A-65? >>
Dick,
This is the configuration that I am going to end up with, too...short
fuselage, Continental A65 engine. I would be very interested in hearing any
info about how others have their plane set up. I did the weight & balance on
paper, and have concluded that I have to extend the engine mount 8" longer
than the plans drawings, to maintain a safe center of gravity range with my
210 lb body in the pilot seat. Although I'm using heavier wall tubing than
the plans call for, this extension of the motor mount seems excessive to me,
and I would like to hear some input about it. I used the firewall as the
datum, then subtracted the distance the leading edge is from the firewall, to
attain the location of the C.G. on the wing chord. On my plane the leading
edge is 11" behind the firewall. The plans show 7 1/2" behind the firewall,
which puts me 3 1/2" aft of vertical cabane struts.
B.H.P. said the C.G. should not be behind 1/3 of the chord. 60" chord
divided by 3 = 20" behind the leading edge, for the aft C.G. limit. This
seems excessive to me, as I have never heard of any other plane with an aft
C.G. limit this far back. An aft C.G. is an efficient place to operate, but
gives touchy pitch control. Aft C.G. frightens me. Several times, I've seen
the results of an aft C.G. in model airplanes. The wing stalls, it enters a
spin and ya just can't get it out, and it will spin all the way to the
ground. In World War I, some pilots would wear parachutes, and if they
entered a spin, they would bail, only to see the plane recover by itself, now
that the aft C.G. no longer existed.
The weight is measured in pounds. The arm is measured in inches. Back
in the 'Old Days' they used the firewall as the datum. The problem with
this, is anything ahead of the firewall is a negative arm. These days, they
use the tip of the spinner, or even several inches ahead of the spinner, as
the datum. This keeps all arms a positive number. When you remove weight,
you also use a negative number. To get the center of gravity, multiply the
weight times the arm, then you add the weight, add the moment, then divide
total moment by the total weight. Pretty simple.
(there was 1gal fuel onbd)
ITEM WEIGHT ARM MOMENT
L. Main 332 17 5644
R. Main 342 17 5814
Tail 14 161 2254
total 688 13712
13712 / 688 = 19.93 -11" = 8.93" aft of leading edge for my Empty Weight
Center of Gravity (E.W.C.G.), with the Model A engine, and 13lb lead ballast
under the nose cone.
ITEM WEIGHT ARM MOMENT
L. Main 332 17 5644
R. Main 342 17 5814
Tail 14 161 2254
Pilot 210 64 13440
Fuel (8gal) 48 33 1584
total 946 28736
28736 / 946 = 30.37 - 11 = 19.37" aft of leading edge with Model A engine,
full fuel & 210lb pilot.
Now I remove the Model A engine & ballast, and add a Continental A65 engine:
ITEM WEIGHT ARM MOMENT
L. Main 332 17 5644
R. Main 342 17 5814
Tail 14 161 2254
Ballast -13 -23 299
Model A engine -225 -12 2700
A65 w/stock mount +175 -17 -2975
total 625 13736
13736 / 625 = 21.97 - 11 = 10.97" aft of leading edge E.W.C.G. with Cont.
A65.
Now I take these numbers, and add fuel & pilot:
total 625 13736
Pilot 210 64 13440
Fuel 48 33 1584
total 883 28760
28760 / 883 = 32.57 - 11 = 21.57" aft of leading edge, with Cont. A65, pilot
& fuel. UNACCEPTABLE
I kept adding to the arm of the A65 engine, till I got to 8" extra arm, to
attain a safe C.G. of 19.98" aft of leading edge. Still not much of a
margin of safety.
My question is this: Is an 8" addition to the plans length of the A65 engine
mount, too much? What to do? I'm ready to weld it up.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
-what to do in the Land of Oz
Message 2
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| Subject: | Brodhead Weight & Ballance study |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
I am re-printing this e-mail from a few years ago:
Subj: Pietenpol weight and balance (http://members.aol.com/gmaclaren/wb
From: mb-albany@worldnet.att.net (Michael Brusilow)
This page from the BPA newsletter may be of some interest to our members.
Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
The results are in . . .
by
Jack Broomall
22200 Heatheridge Lane
Northville, MI 48167
and
Don Verdiani
103 Lockerbie Lane
West Chester, PA 19382
Those of you who were fortunate enough to attend Brodhead '94 may know that
we were able to measure weight and center of gravity information for eight of
the aircraft attending the event.
The reason for undertaking this exercise was to provide a bank of information
that Piet builders could refer to and use in configuring their aircraft. Over
the past several years we have noticed that there are a variety of types of
Air Campers flying with different engines, at least two common fuselage
lengths, different wing positions, and different flying characteristics (if
you doubt this take a close look at the various aircraft taking off and
landing at Brodhead!). Collecting the weight and balance information on a
number of flying aircraft seemed like a good way to gain some insight in this
area.
The data table (below) summarizes the most important information which was
accumulated.
We were fortunate to be able to inspect examples of each of the three most
common powerplants (Ford, Corvair, and Continental).
In the third column we categorize the fuselage as 'short' (the original
design) or long (the so-called 'improved' air camper).
In column 4 we show the aircraft's empty weight. In each case the aircraft
was presented for weighing with some amount of fuel on board. We asked each
owner to estimate how much fuel was in the aircraft, and then corrected to an
empty weight using that estimate and the standard value of 6 lbs. per gallon
for gasoline.
While there is some degree of 'estimating' in these numbers, we are
comfortable that they are reasonably accurate.
In the fifth column, we show the empty aircraft's center of gravity location
with respect to the wing leading edge. We chose the wing leading edge as a
datum because it was the best way to normalize the data to a large variety of
aircraft and also because that's what Mr. Pietenpol used!
For comparative purposes there is a published weight and balance summary,
done in 1965, showing a Corvair powered Air Camper with an empty C.G. 8.71
inches aft of datum. Very few of us fly airplanes empty, with no passengers!
Fortunatly, using the data we collected, we are able to calculate center of
gravity location for any loading condition.
In the sixth column, we show the calculated C.G. location when the aircraft
was loaded with an FAA standard 170 pound pilot in the back seat, and 7
gallons of fuel in the 'main' fuel tank. This might represent a 'typical'
loading for pilot only. Since we weighed some aircraft with both wing tanks
and fueslage tanks we elected to (mathematically) put the 7 gallons of fuel
in whichever tank was bigger. Again a comparison is available.
The previously mentioned weight and balance chart included a C.G. calculation
for that aircraft with 7 gallons of fuel and a 166 pound pilot on board (Did
BHP weigh 166 pounds?). His example aircraft has a C.G. 9.51" aft of datum in
that loading condition.
As a final set of calculations we've shown aircraft weight and C.G. location
when each aircraft is loaded with a 170 pilot, a 170 pound passenger, and
it's fuel tank(s) full. These weights are shown in column G and the C.G.
location is in column H. We found these weights interesting in that some of
the aircraft have surprisingly high gross weights. Also, there are several
aircraft which, in one loading condition or another, seem to violate BHP's
recommendation to never exceed 20" aft of datum C.G. (also shown in the 1965
weight and balance sheet).
Because of the conditions under which all of our information was collected
and because there was no chance to double check any measurements there is
some real chance that there may be errors in our analysis. However, there is
enough consistency in the data to feel fairly confident about it's accuracy.
We would like to thank all the fine folks at Brodhead for helping us with
this project. And special thanks are due to the eight aircraft owners who
donated their aircraft as well as their time and help. We'd like to think
this activity has produced information of real value to the community of
Pietenpol builders and pilots! Anyone who has any questions can feel free to
contact either of us at the addresses above.
DATAM IS THE LEADING EDGE
TAIL # ENGINE FUSE MT WT. EWCG w/ 170lb Gross CG Gross
N444MH Ford 'A' Short 648 7.49 17.72 1048
18.83
NX13691 Ford 'A' Short 676 11.83 21.04 1088
22.02
NX4662T Ford 'A' Short 671 13.69 20.45 1071
20.7
NX5228 Ford 'A' Long 684 6.69 16.16 1084
17.33
C FCMG 0-200 Long 774 15.25 20.42 1208
19.43
N 396S C-85 Long 820 15.2 18.61
1256 16.57
N 687MB 0-200 Long 705 5.59 14.57 1143
15.79
N 778DD Corvair Long 731 9.08 15.93 1191
14.98
Message 3
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| Subject: | Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
O.K. Everyone, here's the question. I am building the "long" version of the Piet.
I plan to use a continental engine. I really like the look of the GN1 with
the Cub cowling. Looking further, I really like using "off the shelf" cub parts
. The GN1 engine mount, the fuel tank, and the cowling are all Pure J-3. Can
I "mix" plans...that is build a Plans built Piet, up to the firewall, then build
the GN-1 firewall forward ? I love the idea of using easily obtainable Cub
parts. Will the DAR have any problems with this ? I have found Cub parts, but
before I purchase, I would like the experts out there to respond.
Anyone out there have metal parts from Replicraft that they are not going to use?
I seem to have started my project just after they went T U. I especially need
wing hardware and torque tube/flight control parts.
Matt Miller
Message 4
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Hi Kip: I'm not sure exactly what the tank capacity is. I'll have to
look at his adds in some of the old issue's of the news letter. I
really wasn't concerned about extra capacity, (although it's more then
the stock Piet. tank.) I bought all of Prices plans and the tank looked
good so I went with it. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I still
need to test it for leaks. I plan to use an accurate gallon measure to
find the true capacity.
Bert C. wrote: "Man I'll be glad when I'm threw with this stupid
airplane.".......I hear you brother, but be careful about bad mouthing
our "stupid" airplane. I just got a butt chewing from Corky for bad
mouthing the sorry plans. I made most of my mistakes before learning
about this web sight and had no one around to ask questions to. I took
it on blind faith that after 50 years of building airplanes Mr. Piet.
was selling cleaned up debugged plans. 5 years ago I bought a set of
plans for Don Sauser's 82% P6-E Hawk. I don't know if I'll ever build
it, but up until he died last year I got a constant stream of updates
and corrections to those plans. Some where out there, there are Piet
builders who don't know about this sight. They are relying solely on the
plans and making the same mistakes over, and over, and over..... . Leon
S. Taking Corky's butt chewing in good spirits.
Message 5
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
Hey Leon,
Wouldn't it be something if Don or Andrew Pietenpol updated the plans?
Or at least gave someone permission to update. What Bernie used 70 years ago
isn't around today. It would be nice to see this plane with CAD blueprints,
and all the funky stuff cleaned up, like that spar splice on the one-piece wing.
How about those old turnbuckle designations? The wing strut tubing, etc.
and we could go on and on. I still think it's cool to see the old prints, but
you are right. Some guy is wasting his time trying to build it to the print.
I could not build this plane without this web list and all the people who have
"been there, done that ".
Thanks everyone,
Kent in cold, windy, snowy OKC
-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Stefan [mailto:lshutks@webtv.net]
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tank
... mouthing the sorry plans. I made most of my mistakes before learning
about this web sight and had no one around to ask questions to. I took
it on blind faith that after 50 years of building airplanes Mr. Piet.
was selling cleaned up debugged plans. 5 years ago I bought a set of
plans for Don Sauser's 82% P6-E Hawk. I don't know if I'll ever build
it, but up until he died last year I got a constant stream of updates
and corrections to those plans. Some where out there, there are Piet
builders who don't know about this sight. They are relying solely on the
plans and making the same mistakes over, and over, and over..... . Leon
S. Taking Corky's butt chewing in good spirits.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
absolutley you can! Thats what I am doing. A GN-1 Piet hybrid. I'm going
an all GN-1 wing and a GN-1/Piet mix fuse. lots of pics on my site
www.raptoronline.com
DJ
www.raptoronline.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
<Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
> O.K. Everyone, here's the question. I am building the "long" version of
the Piet. I plan to use a continental engine. I really like the look of the
GN1 with the Cub cowling. Looking further, I really like using "off the
shelf" cub parts . The GN1 engine mount, the fuel tank, and the cowling are
all Pure J-3. Can I "mix" plans...that is build a Plans built Piet, up to
the firewall, then build the GN-1 firewall forward ? I love the idea of
using easily obtainable Cub parts. Will the DAR have any problems with this
? I have found Cub parts, but before I purchase, I would like the experts
out there to respond.
>
> Anyone out there have metal parts from Replicraft that they are not going
to use? I seem to have started my project just after they went T U. I
especially need wing hardware and torque tube/flight control parts.
>
> Matt Miller
>
>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: weight balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
Dick,
I sent it as an attachment but guess it got booted.
Oh well. What I did was to to all my figuring on the excell program (
four different sceneros<sp>, pilot and pass w/full fuel all the way to pilot
only with low fuel in nose tank)
Then put the data on a sheet based on what Corky posted. The DAR said it
was fine and sent it along.
What I didn't like about the excell was, although it was great to figure on
and instantanious in the results, It seemed kind of overwhelming to read at
first glance. Afterall it is supposed to be in the plane so a pilot can see
if he's in the window at a glance.
The final document I put on WORD and I'll send it to you directly.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weight balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril"
<horzpool@goldengate.net>
>
> Walt Thanks for the response. I have a handle on the basics, I should
have
> been more specific. I need to know what the FAA is going to want to see
for
> a w/b worksheet in my operation manual. Also I was interested in the work
> sheets to do it.
> Did you send an attachment or a site, if so it didn't come through. I
have
> exel at work, I can forward it on.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weight balance
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans"
> <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> > If you are looking for a program to do it with, this one was the best (
> > supplied by someone on this group) Here is the program that I used for
> > maxed out gross. You can plug any numbers in that you want. ( hopefully
> you
> > have windows EXCEL)
> > If you are looking for a basic explanation of how to do W&B, let us
know.
> > Me or others can explain. When you hear it , it seems like Greek, but
> when
> > you really do it, it's really easy.
> > Let us know.
> > walt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: weight balance
> >
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril"
> > <horzpool@goldengate.net>
> > >
> > > I am ready to start the weight balance process. I know that this has
> been
> > discussed many times. I have been in the archives searching for the
info
> > but no luck yet. Does anyone have a full explaination of the complete
> > process for a short fuse with an A-65?
> > > Dick
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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"Fishnet" <Fishnet@topica.com>
| Subject: | I'm a little bugged |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
Now that my plane is licenced, I'm going thru the motions to get the repairmans
certificate. The FAA guy I got is in NJ, and a very nice guy, but he was the
first to admit that he's never done one of these before. He does inspections
on the "heavy metal 767's" . Again he's a nice guy and can only go by the
book that says (or thinks it says "needs a building log") I was always under
the impression that photos were as good as a building log, that's why I never
made one. Besides, I didn't want to be reminded of how many hours I spent working
on the plane. It's like saying "keep a log of how many hours you fish,
and how many fish you catch" kind of takes the fun out of it.
Is the log to prove that you built it? or what?
What can I offer to give him instead of the log, without stepping on those large
Federal toes?
Did all you other flying guys have a log?
walt
NX140DL
(north N.J.)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: I'm a little bugged |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Walt,
I worried over the same thing for months on end. I had 3 large binders of
pics, e-mails for years etc. Would you believe it, he never mentioned a log.
Had me fill out a form and sign it which he sent to the Fed office for them
to issue the Repairman's Certificate directly to me. I did get a call from
the Fed one morning asking me my exact age which I readily gave him. He
laughed and told me I had entered my birth year as 02 and they were
questioning my ability as a 100 yr old mechanic. We got that fixed and a few
days later I received my Certificate. BUT, they are all different.
Corky in La with his bride home with him.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: I'm a little bugged |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
Corky,
This is the type of things that bugg me. Now I'm expected to "create" a log
over the next few weeks, only to have the FAA man glance at it and say "OK,
this looks good, you can keep this log". but I don't want this log. It
only represents two weeks out of my life to create a bogus record.
Got to find a way to smooth things over and have him accept something else.
Thanks Corky. Best wishes to your Bride. Before you guys know it, the
sport thing will be history , and you two will be cruising over that flat
pancake terraine called Looooosianna.
Did a job for Sea-Land about 10 years ago. Repaired a 1000 HP bow thruster
on a container ship. We started in Jacksonville FLA. and after many
Islands, finished up in New Orleans. Quite a long "manuvering watch". Went
for miles where jettes marking the channel just appeared on the sides, and
drilling rigs appeared on the horizon, that looked like dinosaurs. After
many Nautical miles, we came to port.
It's a different world.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
>
> Walt,
> I worried over the same thing for months on end. I had 3 large binders of
> pics, e-mails for years etc. Would you believe it, he never mentioned a
log.
> Had me fill out a form and sign it which he sent to the Fed office for
them
> to issue the Repairman's Certificate directly to me. I did get a call from
> the Fed one morning asking me my exact age which I readily gave him. He
> laughed and told me I had entered my birth year as 02 and they were
> questioning my ability as a 100 yr old mechanic. We got that fixed and a
few
> days later I received my Certificate. BUT, they are all different.
> Corky in La with his bride home with him.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | I'm a little bugged |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com>
Walter,
Think of it this way: Your photos aren't "as good as a log" they ARE a log.
I'm sure you've arranged them sequentially, and put them in an album. They
show what you did, and when you did it. What else can they ask for?
Gene Hubbard
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: I'm a little bugged |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
<Fishnet@topica.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged
++++++++++++++++++
Walt,
I didn't keep a log as such, just a shoebox of photos that showed me working
on the plane, and another box of receipts. I'm with you, didn't want to
know how many hours I spent on the plane, (and also didn't want my wife to
know how much I spent).
I would suggest that you simply gather up all your receipts and photos along
with all of our e-mails where we didn't have to have a "formal log" and show
them to the DAR. I'll bet he will change his mind. After all, my DAR said
it was simply to prove that I built the plane and for no other purpose!.
John
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans"
<wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
>
> Now that my plane is licenced, I'm going thru the motions to get the
repairmans certificate. The FAA guy I got is in NJ, and a very nice guy,
but he was the first to admit that he's never done one of these before. He
does inspections on the "heavy metal 767's" . Again he's a nice guy and
can only go by the book that says (or thinks it says "needs a building log")
I was always under the impression that photos were as good as a building
log, that's why I never made one. Besides, I didn't want to be reminded of
how many hours I spent working on the plane. It's like saying "keep a log
of how many hours you fish, and how many fish you catch" kind of takes the
fun out of it.
> Is the log to prove that you built it? or what?
> What can I offer to give him instead of the log, without stepping on those
large Federal toes?
> Did all you other flying guys have a log?
> walt
> NX140DL
> (north N.J.)
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | I'm a little bugged |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net>
I agree with Gene, Walt. You can probably dig a bunch of your emails up
from this list, too. That would at least show that you were at this thing
for a period of several years. After all, the regs don't specify what
constitutes a "log". Webster defines a log as "any record of performance".
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hubbard,
Eugene
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com>
Walter,
Think of it this way: Your photos aren't "as good as a log" they ARE a log.
I'm sure you've arranged them sequentially, and put them in an album. They
show what you did, and when you did it. What else can they ask for?
Gene Hubbard
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rcaprd@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I find it interesting that the average empty weight of these 8 Piets is
713.625 pounds. Kinda seems to me that all the weight difference between
the 630 pounds that Mr Pietenpol posted as the empty weight for his planes
has been added to by brakes, tailwheel maybe electrical, seat cushions,
little things that "make it stronger", little extras that "really don't add
any weight" etc. of our modern builders. Today we are using other woods, fir
for instance that weighs about 25% more than spruce, putting on heavier
finishes, using more finish to protect the wooden airframe and it all adds
up. Believe me, I know cause I've been there!
Or could it be like gas mileage, we always tell our friends that we get 30
mpg when really it's only 25 mpg?
It might also be noted that when one of the original planes, I can't
remember which one, but it was published in BPN newsletter some time ago,
was discovered that the plane that Mr. Pietenpol had built had hardly any
varnish at all to protect the woodwork under the fabric!
Oh well, I guess that it's simply as we (or the design) ages, we get fatter!
John, NX114D
Salida, CO
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
>
> I am re-printing this e-mail from a few years ago:
>
> Subj: Pietenpol weight and balance (http://members.aol.com/gmaclaren/wb
> Date: 9/7/99 8:46:41 AM Central Daylight Time
> From: mb-albany@worldnet.att.net (Michael Brusilow)
> To: piet@byu.edu (Pietenpol Discussion)
>
> This page from the BPA newsletter may be of some interest to our members.
>
> Mike B Piet N687MB ( Mr Sam )
>
> The results are in . . .
> by
> Jack Broomall
> 22200 Heatheridge Lane
> Northville, MI 48167
> and
> Don Verdiani
> 103 Lockerbie Lane
> West Chester, PA 19382
>
> Those of you who were fortunate enough to attend Brodhead '94 may know
that
> we were able to measure weight and center of gravity information for eight
of
> the aircraft attending the event.
>
> The reason for undertaking this exercise was to provide a bank of
information
> that Piet builders could refer to and use in configuring their aircraft.
Over
> the past several years we have noticed that there are a variety of types
of
> Air Campers flying with different engines, at least two common fuselage
> lengths, different wing positions, and different flying characteristics
(if
> you doubt this take a close look at the various aircraft taking off and
> landing at Brodhead!). Collecting the weight and balance information on a
> number of flying aircraft seemed like a good way to gain some insight in
this
> area.
>
> The data table (below) summarizes the most important information which was
> accumulated.
>
> We were fortunate to be able to inspect examples of each of the three most
> common powerplants (Ford, Corvair, and Continental).
>
> In the third column we categorize the fuselage as 'short' (the original
> design) or long (the so-called 'improved' air camper).
>
> In column 4 we show the aircraft's empty weight. In each case the aircraft
> was presented for weighing with some amount of fuel on board. We asked
each
> owner to estimate how much fuel was in the aircraft, and then corrected to
an
> empty weight using that estimate and the standard value of 6 lbs. per
gallon
> for gasoline.
>
> While there is some degree of 'estimating' in these numbers, we are
> comfortable that they are reasonably accurate.
>
> In the fifth column, we show the empty aircraft's center of gravity
location
> with respect to the wing leading edge. We chose the wing leading edge as a
> datum because it was the best way to normalize the data to a large variety
of
> aircraft and also because that's what Mr. Pietenpol used!
>
> For comparative purposes there is a published weight and balance summary,
> done in 1965, showing a Corvair powered Air Camper with an empty C.G. 8.71
> inches aft of datum. Very few of us fly airplanes empty, with no
passengers!
> Fortunatly, using the data we collected, we are able to calculate center
of
> gravity location for any loading condition.
>
> In the sixth column, we show the calculated C.G. location when the
aircraft
> was loaded with an FAA standard 170 pound pilot in the back seat, and 7
> gallons of fuel in the 'main' fuel tank. This might represent a 'typical'
> loading for pilot only. Since we weighed some aircraft with both wing
tanks
> and fueslage tanks we elected to (mathematically) put the 7 gallons of
fuel
> in whichever tank was bigger. Again a comparison is available.
>
> The previously mentioned weight and balance chart included a C.G.
calculation
> for that aircraft with 7 gallons of fuel and a 166 pound pilot on board
(Did
> BHP weigh 166 pounds?). His example aircraft has a C.G. 9.51" aft of datum
in
> that loading condition.
>
> As a final set of calculations we've shown aircraft weight and C.G.
location
> when each aircraft is loaded with a 170 pilot, a 170 pound passenger, and
> it's fuel tank(s) full. These weights are shown in column G and the C.G.
> location is in column H. We found these weights interesting in that some
of
> the aircraft have surprisingly high gross weights. Also, there are several
> aircraft which, in one loading condition or another, seem to violate BHP's
> recommendation to never exceed 20" aft of datum C.G. (also shown in the
1965
> weight and balance sheet).
>
> Because of the conditions under which all of our information was collected
> and because there was no chance to double check any measurements there is
> some real chance that there may be errors in our analysis. However, there
is
> enough consistency in the data to feel fairly confident about it's
accuracy.
>
> We would like to thank all the fine folks at Brodhead for helping us with
> this project. And special thanks are due to the eight aircraft owners who
> donated their aircraft as well as their time and help. We'd like to think
> this activity has produced information of real value to the community of
> Pietenpol builders and pilots! Anyone who has any questions can feel free
to
> contact either of us at the addresses above.
>
> DATAM IS THE LEADING EDGE
> TAIL # ENGINE FUSE MT WT. EWCG w/ 170lb Gross CG
Gross
> N444MH Ford 'A' Short 648 7.49 17.72 1048
> 18.83
> NX13691 Ford 'A' Short 676 11.83 21.04
1088
> 22.02
> NX4662T Ford 'A' Short 671 13.69 20.45
1071
> 20.7
> NX5228 Ford 'A' Long 684 6.69 16.16
1084
> 17.33
> C FCMG 0-200 Long 774 15.25 20.42
1208
> 19.43
> N 396S C-85 Long 820 15.2 18.61
> 1256 16.57
> N 687MB 0-200 Long 705 5.59 14.57
1143
> 15.79
> N 778DD Corvair Long 731 9.08 15.93
1191
> 14.98
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: weight balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Chuck
I think I see your problem. It appears that when you did your second set of
calculations that you subtracted the weight of the Model A and added the
A-65 but your figures for the three weight points did not change. I don't
think that you can assume that.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rcaprd@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weight balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 12/2/02 6:14:28 PM Central Standard Time,
> horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
>
> << Does anyone have a full explanation of the complete process for a short
> fuse with an A-65? >>
>
> Dick,
> This is the configuration that I am going to end up with, too...short
> fuselage, Continental A65 engine. I would be very interested in hearing
any
> info about how others have their plane set up. I did the weight & balance
on
> paper, and have concluded that I have to extend the engine mount 8" longer
> than the plans drawings, to maintain a safe center of gravity range with
my
> 210 lb body in the pilot seat. Although I'm using heavier wall tubing
than
> the plans call for, this extension of the motor mount seems excessive to
me,
> and I would like to hear some input about it. I used the firewall as the
> datum, then subtracted the distance the leading edge is from the firewall,
to
> attain the location of the C.G. on the wing chord. On my plane the
leading
> edge is 11" behind the firewall. The plans show 7 1/2" behind the
firewall,
> which puts me 3 1/2" aft of vertical cabane struts.
> B.H.P. said the C.G. should not be behind 1/3 of the chord. 60" chord
> divided by 3 = 20" behind the leading edge, for the aft C.G. limit. This
> seems excessive to me, as I have never heard of any other plane with an
aft
> C.G. limit this far back. An aft C.G. is an efficient place to operate,
but
> gives touchy pitch control. Aft C.G. frightens me. Several times, I've
seen
> the results of an aft C.G. in model airplanes. The wing stalls, it enters
a
> spin and ya just can't get it out, and it will spin all the way to the
> ground. In World War I, some pilots would wear parachutes, and if they
> entered a spin, they would bail, only to see the plane recover by itself,
now
> that the aft C.G. no longer existed.
> The weight is measured in pounds. The arm is measured in inches.
Back
> in the 'Old Days' they used the firewall as the datum. The problem with
> this, is anything ahead of the firewall is a negative arm. These days,
they
> use the tip of the spinner, or even several inches ahead of the spinner,
as
> the datum. This keeps all arms a positive number. When you remove
weight,
> you also use a negative number. To get the center of gravity, multiply
the
> weight times the arm, then you add the weight, add the moment, then divide
> total moment by the total weight. Pretty simple.
> (there was 1gal fuel onbd)
>
> ITEM WEIGHT ARM MOMENT
> L. Main 332 17 5644
> R. Main 342 17 5814
> Tail 14 161 2254
> total 688 13712
>
> 13712 / 688 = 19.93 -11" = 8.93" aft of leading edge for my Empty Weight
> Center of Gravity (E.W.C.G.), with the Model A engine, and 13lb lead
ballast
> under the nose cone.
>
> ITEM WEIGHT ARM MOMENT
> L. Main 332 17 5644
> R. Main 342 17 5814
> Tail 14 161 2254
> Pilot 210 64 13440
> Fuel (8gal) 48 33 1584
> total 946 28736
> 28736 / 946 = 30.37 - 11 = 19.37" aft of leading edge with Model A engine,
> full fuel & 210lb pilot.
>
>
> Now I remove the Model A engine & ballast, and add a Continental A65
engine:
> ITEM WEIGHT ARM MOMENT
> L. Main 332 17 5644
> R. Main 342 17 5814
> Tail 14 161 2254
> Ballast -13 -23 299
> Model A engine -225 -12 2700
> A65 w/stock mount +175 -17 -2975
> total 625 13736
> 13736 / 625 = 21.97 - 11 = 10.97" aft of leading edge E.W.C.G. with Cont.
> A65.
>
> Now I take these numbers, and add fuel & pilot:
> total 625 13736
> Pilot 210 64
13440
> Fuel 48 33 1584
> total 883 28760
> 28760 / 883 = 32.57 - 11 = 21.57" aft of leading edge, with Cont. A65,
pilot
> & fuel. UNACCEPTABLE
>
> I kept adding to the arm of the A65 engine, till I got to 8" extra arm, to
> attain a safe C.G. of 19.98" aft of leading edge. Still not much of a
> margin of safety.
>
> My question is this: Is an 8" addition to the plans length of the A65
engine
> mount, too much? What to do? I'm ready to weld it up.
>
> Chuck Gantzer
> NX770CG
> -what to do in the Land of Oz
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | List of Contributors #1 - A Special Thank You... |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
First let me say Thank You to everyone that made a Contribution in support
of the Lists this year! I was particularly touched by all of the wonderful
comments people made regarding the Lists and how much they mean to
them. As I have said many times before, running these Lists and creating
the many new features is truly a labor of love. This is why your comments
of support and appreciation have particular meaning for me. Your
generosity during this time of List support only underscores the delightful
sentiments people have made regarding the Lists.
The money raised during this year's Fund Raiser will go directly into
supporting the continued operation of the Lists as well as some much needed
upgrades. For example, I have just ordered three new UPS systems to
replaced the currently failing and out-of-warranty older units. These new
units will provide well over 3 hours of backup protection during an outage
and assure that the computer systems will be shutdown in a safe and orderly
fashion. I have also ordered a new backup system that will provide 60 days
of on line, daily backups for all of systems supporting the List
services. This regular backup capability serves to rigorously protect
against the inevitable system disk failure or the (not-so) "unlikely"
errant event of the rogue "rm *" command...(!) Last year, using resources
generated by the Fund Raiser, I was able to upgrade the Web server
platform, greatly enhancing the performance of the many services such as
the Archive Search Engine, as well as increasing the system reliability
through newer equipment. During the upcoming year, using Contributions
from this year's Fund Raiser, I hope to upgrade the Email System in a
similar fashion, providing Listers with substantial increases in
performance and availability. Know that all of these enhancements are
remotely feasible ONLY because of your generosity during the List Fund
Raiser. For this, both I, and the rest of the List population thank you!
I would also once again like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore
( http://www.buildersbooks.com ) who so generously supported this year's
Fund Raiser with both free and substantially discounted merchandise!! Andy
is truly one of a kind, and a superb businessman, and I cannot thank him
enough for all that he's done! If you have any aircraft media needs in the
near future, I would ask that you please give his great web site a
look. Thanks again Andy, for all your support!
And finally, below you will find the 2002 List of Contributors current as
of 12/3/02! Have a look at the list of names there as these are the people
that make all of the services here possible! I can't thank you all enough
for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser! THANK YOU!
I will post a follow up List of Contributors at the end of the month to
catch any straggles or people who mailed in checks. There are still a few
of the various Free Gifts left, so please feel free to yet make your
Contribution and get a great Free Gift to-boot! Once again, the URL for
the Contributions web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I will be shipping out the CDROM-Only orders later this week. The
remaining Flight Bag-Only and all of the Flight Bag & CDROM orders will
ship out as soon as I receive the second shipment of flight bags. The A&P
Book orders will go out later this month. I will post again regarding the
actual shipment of the various items.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
------------------- 2002 List of Contributors #1 -----------------
Adams, Brian
Adams, Robert
Addington, James
Alber, John
Alexander, Don
Alexander, George
Allen, George
Altenhein, Gary
Amundsen, Blair
Amundson, John
Andrepont, Dirk
Andrews, Myles
Applefeld, Gerald
Armstrong, Christopher
Aronson, David
Ashton, Kent
Aspegren, Roger
Atkinson, Harold
Austin, David
Awad, Ihab
Babb, Tony
Bahrns, Stan
Baker, Jim
Baker, Owen
Ballenger, Jim
Barnes, Thomas
Bartrim, S.Todd
Basiliere, Rick
Bassette, Richard
Bataller, Gary
Batte, W.Granville
Bean, James
Bean, Robert
Beard, Harley
Bell, Bruce
Benham, Dallas
Benjamin, Hal
Benson, Lonnie
Bergeron, Daniel
Bergner, Lee
Bernard, William
Bernier, Jim
Bertelli, John
Bertrand, Carl
Beusch, Andre
Bidle, Jerry
Bieber, Michael
Bieberdorf, Roger
Billing, Ernie
Binzer, Robert
Bird, Carroll
Blahnick, Drew
Blake, J.I.
Blake, Peter
Blomgren, Jack
Boardman, Don
Bockelman, David
Boede, Jon
Bolduc, Richard
Bona, Skip
Bonesteel, Wayne
Bookout, Ralph
Booze, Greg
Borduas, Eric
Boucher, Michel
Bourne, Larry
Bowen, Larry
Bowman, John
Boyter, Wayne
Brame, Charles
Brandon, John
Branstrom, Dan
Brasch, Glenn
Brick, John
Bridges, Glenn
Bridgham, David
Briggs, Tracy
Brocious, Bob
Bromka, Alan
Bronson, Tim
Brooks, Chris
Brooks, John
Brooks, Kenyon
Brooks, William
Broomell, Glenn
Brown, Robert
Buchanan, Sam
Buchmann, Kenneth
Buess, Alfred
Bulot, Larry
Burg, H.R.
Burks, Terrell
Burton, Charlie
Burton, James
Bush, Jerome
Butcher, Ronald
Butler, Francis
Calhoun, Ron
Calloway, Terry
Calvert, Jerry
Cameron, Todd
Cann, Tony
Cantrell, Jimmy
Capen, Ralph
Capestany, Phillip
Carey, Christopher
Carillon, John
CarillonSr., Paul
Carlisle, O.
Carroll, Randy
Carter, Ron
Casey, Jeremy
Challgren, Stanley
Champaign, Philip
Chandler, Charles
Chapman, Tom
Chapple, Glen
Checkoway, Dan
Chesterman, Dave
Christie, Bill
Clark, James
Clark, John
Clinchy, David
Cochran, Stewart
Coffey, John
Cohen, Philip
Coldenhoff, Tim
Cole, Gary
Coley, Howard
Collins, Leland
Colucci, Tony
Comfort, Gordon
Compton, Scott
Condon, Philip
Connell, Joseph
Cook, Craig
Cooper, James
Corbalis, Leo
Corbett, Corky&Isabelle
Corder, Michael
Corriveau, Grant
Cotton, David
Coulter, Annette
Coulter, Carl
Counselman, William
Coursey, William
Cox, Ronald
Craig, John
Cretsinger, Will
Crisp, Steve
Croke, Jon
Crosby, Harry
Crosley, Richard
Cruikshank, Bruce
Cullen, Chuck
Cummings, Tom
Currie, Robert
Dalstrom, Douglas
Dalziel, Donald
Danclovic, Paul
Daniels, Jim
Dascomb, George
Daudt, Larry
Davidson, Jeff
Davis, Jared
Davis, John
Davis, Joseph
Davis, Mark
Davis, Terry
Dawson, Clif
Dawson, William
Day, Jack
Desimone, D.A., Dr
Desimone, David
Desmond, Richard
Devaney, Robert
Diehl, Donald
Dilatush, John
Dionne, Bruno
Dobson, Russell
Dodge, Larry
Donald, Woods
Dondlinger, Leo
Douglas, Lyle
Dresden, Robert
Driscoll, Patrick
Driver, Stuart
Dudley, Richard
Dupon, William
Dupuis, Real
Durr, Wendell
DuVe, Chris
Eagleston, Ron
Eaves, Donald
Eberhart, Steven
Ebsen, Kevin
Eckel, John
Eckenroth, Paul
Edwards, Bruce
Elder, William
Elia, Pete
Ellenberger, Mike
Ellis, Dale
Ervin, Thomas
Erwin, Chip
Escobar, Luis
Esterhuizen, Deon
Evans, Marion
Evans, Walt
Faatz, Mitch
Fackler, Ken
Fair, William
Faris, Kevin
Farley, David
Fasching, John
Fay, John
Feldmann, Stephen
Ferguson, Jay
Finley, John
Fishe, James
Fitzpatrick, Robert
Flamini, Dennis
Foerster, James
Fondevila, Gabriel
Fox, Byron
Fraser, Angus
Fray, Jerry
Frazier, Ford
Freeman, James
Fricke, Walt
Frisby, James
Fromm, John
Frost, George
Fry, John
Frye, Dwight
Frymire, Terry
Fulgham, Bill
Fulmer, Joseph
Fung, Sean
Gardner, Albert
Garner, John
Garrou, Douglas
Gassmann, Andrew
Gates, Leo
Genzlinger, Reade
George, William
German, Mark
Gherkins, Tim
Gibbons, Chip
Gilbert, Mark
Gillespie, R.L.
Gillies, Patty
Glasgow, Steve
Glass, Roy
Goble, Loren
Golden, Dennis
Gonzalez, Manuel
Good, Chris
Gordon, Keith
Gott, Shelby
Goudinoff, Peter
Grabb, Gary
Graham, W.Doyce
Grajek, Al
Graumlich, Thomas
Graumlich, Tom
Grebe, David
Green, Roger
Green, Steven
Greene, Tim
Grentzer, Edward
Griffin, Bill
Griffin, Robert
Guidroz, Thomas
Gummo, Thomas
Gustafson, Aaron
Guthrie, Mark
Haertlein, Frank
Hallsten, Keith
Hallsten, Kent
Hamer, Steve
Hancock, Barry
Hand, Chris
Hankins, Roger
Hanrahan, Jamie
Hansen, Richard
Hanson, Kevin
Hardaway, Mike
Harding, Scott
Hargis, Merle
Harman, Richard
Harmon, John
Harmon, Loren
Harrill, Ken
Harris, John
Harris, Richard
Hart, Daniel
Hart, Jack
Hartl, Paul
Hartselle, Richard
Hartson, Wesley
Hartwig, Richard
Harvey, Dale
Hasper, Jim
Hatch, Pat
Hatcher, Clive
Hatfield, Cecil
Hauck, John
Hawkins, Harry
Hawkins, Larry
Hebb, Loman
Hegler, Freddie
Heisey, Adriel
Henderson, Neil
Herminghaus, John
Herren, William
Herrick, David
Hibbing, William
Hickman, Robert
Hill, Jeff
Hill, Kenneth
Hill, Stanley
Himes, Joe
Himsl, Vincent
Hinrichsen, James
Hodge, Jack
Hodgson, Bob
Hoffman, Allan
Hoffman, Carl
Hoffman, Curtis
Hoffmann, Thomas
Holifield, Stephen
Hooper, Randy
Hoover, Ralph
Hornick, Paul
Horton, Dan
Horton, Kevin
Hubbard, Eugene
Huft, John
Hughes, Robert
Hulen, Fred
Humbert, Robert
Hunger, Norman
Hunsicker, Greg
Hunt, Jim
Hunt, Robin
Hurlbut, Steve
Hutchinson, Harold
Hutchison, Tom
Iii, Henry,
Inman, George
Isaacs, Robert
Isler, Jerry
Jackson, Scott
Jamieson, Richard
Jan, Dejong
Jannakos, Gregory
Jenkins, John
Jensen, Marinus
Jessen, John
Jewell, Jim
Johannsson, Johann
Johnson, Bob
Johnson, Brian
Johnson, Delbert
Johnson, Kerry
Johnson, Lance
Johnson, Murray
Johnson, Richard
Johnson, Steve
Jones, Alvin
Jones, Kevin
Joosten, Craig
Jordan, Don
Jordan, John
Jory, Rick
Jungjr, Johnr
Kahn, Steve
Kaluza, Charles
Karmy, Andrew
Karpinski, Arthur
Kayner, Dennis
Kelley, Jim
Kelley, Patrick
Kellum, Mark
Kempthorne, Hal
Kent, John
Kirby, David
Kleen, Chris & Indira
Knoepflein, Shannon
Knoll, Bruce
Kohn, Carl
Koonce, R.L.
Kovac, Harold
Kowalski, Bruce
Kramer, Ed
Kritzman, Alan
Krok, Peter
Kuntz, Paul
Kuss, Charles
Kwitek, Marty
Kyle, Fegus
Lackwitz, Ray
Laird, Dave
Laird, David
Lamb, Billie
Lamb, Billy
Landmann, Doug
Lannon, Walter
Larsen, Gene
Larson, Joe
Lasecki, Robert
Lassen, Finn
Latimer, Jerry
Laurie, Kip
Lawliss, James
Lawson, John
Ledbetter, Gene
Ledoux, Paul
Lee, Terry
Lefler, Fabian
Lekven, Carl
Lenarz, Michael(mike)
Lenton, Dennis
Lerohl, Gaylen Terminaltown
Lervold, Randy
Lewis, Rufus
Lewis, Terry
Lewis, Tim
Licking, Lawrence
Lifer, Craig
Liming, Gary
Linebaugh, Jeffrey
Linse, Michael
Lloyd, Brian
Loar, Carl
Long, Charles
Long, Eugene
Long, Jim
Longcrier, Thurman
Longino, Dana
Loubert, Gary
Lundborg, Craig
Lundin, Richard
Lundquist, David
Lutgring, Thomas
Lynch, Charles
Macchiaverna, Andrew
Macdonald, Dave
Macdonald, Larry
Mack, Don
Mackay, Alex
Madden, Peter
Mains, Ralph
Malczynski, Francis
Malich, Gunter
Markle, Jim
Markwell, Cleone
Marlow, Sam
Marshall, F.Robert
Marshall, Nigel
Martin, Bryan
Martin, Jay
Martin, Richard
Mason, Ron
Massari, Steve
Mattson, Doug
Maziarz, Dpnald
Mcbride, Duncan
Mccallister, Don
Mccallum, Robert
Mccracken, Ted
Mcfarland, Larry
Mcfarlane, Lloyd
Mcgehee, Tom
Mcgregor, Bruce
Mcintosh, Wayne
Mcintyre, Jay
Mckelvey, David
Mckenna, Mike
Mcleod, Neil
Medeiros, Joel
Medema, Doug
Meiste, Kelly
Mekeel, Donald
Mensink, Will
Merchant, Dean
Messinger, Paul
Metz, Lowell
Meyers, Jess
Meyers, John
Meyn, Wolfgang
Michel, Paul
Milgrom, Mark
Miller, David
Miller, Jim&dondi
Mills, Bill
Minewiser, Jim
Mitchell, Bill
Mitchell, Duane
Mitchell, Graham
Moak, Ken
Montagne, Raymond
Montoure, Ken
Morehead, Cj
Morelli, William
Morgan, Mark
Morin, Mauri
Morison, James
Morley, Harold
Morphis, George
Morrow, Dan
Mosier, Colby
Moulin, Roger
Moyle, John
Mrotzek, Dan
Mucker, Matthew
Mudge, Ronald
Muegge, James
Mueller, Mike
Mulherin, Harold
Murray, Glenn
Murray, Ronald
Murrill, Bob
Myers, John
Natho, Paul
Navratil, Richard
Neilsen, Richard
Neitzel, Richard
Nellis, Mike
Newkirk, Bill
Nicely, Vincent
Nicholas, Kim
Nickless, Jim
Nickson, Dennis
Norman, Jim
North, Wheeler
Noyer, Robert
Nuckolls, Robert
Nystrom, John
O'Brien, Bill
O'Brien, Dan
O'Brien, William
O'Donnell, David
Oberst, James
Ochsner, Doug
Oconnor, Edward
Ohlinger, Judith
Okeefe, Larry
Okeefe, Lawrence
Okrent, Mike
Oldford, David
Orear, Jeff
Orsborn, Thomas
Owens, Don
Owens, Phillip
Packard, Tom
Pardue, Larry
Parham, Bernard
Park, Gene
Parker, Ray
Patsey, Kevin
Patterson, Tim
Payne, Craig
Payne, Ron
Pedersen, Wayne
Pekin, J
Pelletier, Daniel
Perez, M.Domenic
Peterson, Alex
Peterson, David
Petri, David
Petty, Paul
Pflimlin, Paul
Pfundt, Jan
Phillips, Jack
Phillips, Mark
Pickrell, Jim
Pieper, William
Pike, Richard
Pilling, Kevin
Pinneo, George
Pinzon, Pedro
Plecenik, Michael
Point, Jeff
Polits, Dick
Pollard, Jim
Polstra, Philip
Pote, Barry
Powell, Ken
Prather, Matthew
Preston, Douglas
Pribble, Marv
Puckett, Greg
Rabaut, Chuck
Raby, Ronald
Radford, Joe
Ramotowski, Joe
Randolph, George
Ray, Rick
Ray, Rob
Reeck, Arthur
Reed, Gary
Reed, Joel
Reeves, Dan
Render, James
Reuterskiold, John
Rice, Mike
Richard, J.
Richards, Stephen
Risch, Bob
Robert, Larry
Robinson, James
Rodebush, James
Roebuck, Warren
Roehl, Tim
Rogers, Ken
Rohling, William
Romine, Chris
Ron, Dewees
Rosenberg, Ran
Rowe, Dennis
Rozendaal, Doug
Russell, Jack
Sa, Carlos
Safford, Brad
Salter, Phillip
Salzman, Mike
Sapp, Doug
Sargent, Thomas
Sax, Samuel
Schiff, Nathan
Schneider, Werner
Schnurr, Jack
Schoenberger, H.Robert
Schrimmer, Mark
Schroeder, John
Schultz, Davidh
Scott, Clive
Scroggs, Ross
Seal, Boyd
Sears, Jim
Seel, Norman
Selby, Jim
Shackelford, Orie
Shafer, James
Shank, Bill
Shannon, Kevin
Shearing, Garth
Sheets, Doug
Shelton, Kevin
Shepherd, Dallas
Shipley, Rob
Siegfried, Bob
Silva, Oswaldo
Simmons, Ken
Simpson, Randy
Singleton, Graham
Sink, Donald
Sipp, Richard
Slatt, Gary
Small, Jeff
Smith, David
Smith, Gene
Smith, Kirk
Smith, Ronald
Smith, Zed
Sobel, Martin
Sohn, Daniel
Solecki, John
Sower, Jim
Sparks, Timothy
Spence, Stephen
Spencer, Scott
Sprayberry, JR
Sprunger, Gary
Staal, Stephen
Stagg, Lynwood
Staley, Dick
Starn, Jack
Steuber, Edward
Stewart, Don
Stoffers, Larry
Stone, Chris
Strawn, David
Stroberg, David
Strong, Gary
Stuart, Clay
Sullivan, Stan
Sutterfield, Stan
Swaney, Mark
Swanson, Roger
Swanson, Ronald
Swartzendruber, David
Swenson, Guy
Swinford, George
Tasker, Richard
Tauchen, Bryan
Tellet, David
Textor, Jack
Therrien, Michel
Thistlethwaite, Geoff
Thomas, Lee
Thomas, Stephen
Thomason, Michael
Thompson, David
Thorne, Jim
Thwing, Randy
Todd, John
Tompkins, Jeff
Tower, John
Towner, Melvin
Trojan, David
Truitt, Jim
Trumpfheller, Robert
Tupper, Kirby
Turnbull, Tom
Tuton, Beauford
Uniform, Sirs!
Utterback, Tom
Van Laak, Jim
Vanbladeren, Ronald
Vandenbroek, Martin
VanDerSanden, Gert
Vangrunsven, Stanley
Vanwinkle, Alden
Vargas, Javier
Vaughan, Cye
Vervoort-woestenburg, Jef
Voelker, Leonard
Voss, Richard
Wagner, James
Wagoner, Richard
Waldal, ArtB.
Walker, Beau
Walker, Weston
Wall, Chris
Wallen, Arden
Wampler, Jim
Washburn, Oliver
Watson, Richard
Watson, Terry
Weaver, Erich
Weaver, Fred
Webb, Randol
Weiler, Doug
Weiss, Gary
Werner, Russ
Weyant, Chuck
Wheatley, Malcolm
Whelan, Thomas
White, Charles
Whiteside, Eric
Whitman, Timothy
Whittier, Bucky
Whittington, Dewitt
Wilcox, Gary
Williams, Eugene
Williams, Gene
Williams, Laurence
Williams, Terry
Willig, Louis
Willis, Raymond
Wilson, Billy
Wilson, Kelly
Winberry, Bryan
Winne, Edward
Winnings, James
Wittman, James
Woods, Harold
Wotring, Dale
Wright, Roy
Wymer, Gerald
Yamokoski, William
Young, Rollin
Zecherle, John
Zheng, Andrew
Zilik, Gary
Zirges, Malcolm
Zollinger, Duane
Zuniga, Oscar
------------------- 2002 List of Contributors #1 -----------------
DNA: do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
DJ and Matt
The best part about homebuilding and plans built aircraft is that you can
make changes. Just be sure the changes are for the better. Some one once
told me "If it isn't in the plans, toss it into the air, if it comes down
don't put it into your airplane!" Funny, but if no one changed anything,
would we be flying at all? Just make sure it is structurally a sound method
and as Graham has said "add lightness and simplicate!"
DJ, sounds about where I'm going. Are you using a moveable wing? What
engine and landing gear?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
absolutley you can! Thats what I am doing. A GN-1 Piet hybrid. I'm going
an all GN-1 wing and a GN-1/Piet mix fuse. lots of pics on my site
www.raptoronline.com
DJ
www.raptoronline.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
<Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
> O.K. Everyone, here's the question. I am building the "long" version of
the Piet. I plan to use a continental engine. I really like the look of the
GN1 with the Cub cowling. Looking further, I really like using "off the
shelf" cub parts . The GN1 engine mount, the fuel tank, and the cowling are
all Pure J-3. Can I "mix" plans...that is build a Plans built Piet, up to
the firewall, then build the GN-1 firewall forward ? I love the idea of
using easily obtainable Cub parts. Will the DAR have any problems with this
? I have found Cub parts, but before I purchase, I would like the experts
out there to respond.
>
> Anyone out there have metal parts from Replicraft that they are not going
to use? I seem to have started my project just after they went T U. I
especially need wing hardware and torque tube/flight control parts.
>
> Matt Miller
>
>
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
i'm pretty much sticking to plans except for fuselage. The GN-1 is WAY
overbuilt. The ply sides go from firewall to tail post. I'm doing my ply
sides to just aft of the rear seat and oversized gussets from there to the
tail. GN-1's are known for being tail heavy. For every pound saved at the
tail you shave 4 off the total weight.
I'm using a Cub gear on mine with a '65 110 Corvair.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
>
> DJ and Matt
> The best part about homebuilding and plans built aircraft is that
you can
> make changes. Just be sure the changes are for the better. Some one once
> told me "If it isn't in the plans, toss it into the air, if it comes down
> don't put it into your airplane!" Funny, but if no one changed anything,
> would we be flying at all? Just make sure it is structurally a sound
method
> and as Graham has said "add lightness and simplicate!"
> DJ, sounds about where I'm going. Are you using a moveable wing?
What
> engine and landing gear?
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
>
> absolutley you can! Thats what I am doing. A GN-1 Piet hybrid. I'm
going
> an all GN-1 wing and a GN-1/Piet mix fuse. lots of pics on my site
> www.raptoronline.com
>
> DJ
> www.raptoronline.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
> <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> >
> > O.K. Everyone, here's the question. I am building the "long" version of
> the Piet. I plan to use a continental engine. I really like the look of
the
> GN1 with the Cub cowling. Looking further, I really like using "off the
> shelf" cub parts . The GN1 engine mount, the fuel tank, and the cowling
are
> all Pure J-3. Can I "mix" plans...that is build a Plans built Piet, up to
> the firewall, then build the GN-1 firewall forward ? I love the idea of
> using easily obtainable Cub parts. Will the DAR have any problems with
this
> ? I have found Cub parts, but before I purchase, I would like the experts
> out there to respond.
> >
> > Anyone out there have metal parts from Replicraft that they are not
going
> to use? I seem to have started my project just after they went T U. I
> especially need wing hardware and torque tube/flight control parts.
> >
> > Matt Miller
> >
> >
>
>
> This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by
> Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more
> information on an anti-virus email solution, visit
> <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.
>
>
This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half
Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information
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Message 19
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" <rodwooller@hotmail.com>
Thanks Ian, Jack, Del, Chris for your replies. It seems I may have been
over-concerned about the access to the interior with the side ply on. Those
of you who did it this way appear to have had no big problems, so as it will
be less work I'll put the sides on first.
I made my ribs as Chris did, gluing on the gussets after the rib was built
and was pleased with the result, but wondering now if the extra effort was
worth it.
Thanks again,
Rod Wooller
Chidlow
Australia
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