---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/04/02: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:03 AM - Re: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study (Jack Phillips) 2. 04:40 AM - Re: I'm a little bugged (John_Duprey@vmed.org) 3. 05:21 AM - Re: I'm a little bugged (Michael D Cuy) 4. 05:38 AM - DJ's web photos and Corvair pics (Michael D Cuy) 5. 06:06 AM - tail-end Charlie (Oscar Zuniga) 6. 06:34 AM - Re: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans (Ken Rickards) 7. 06:56 AM - Fw: Re: Fw: I'm a little bugged (Michael D Cuy) 8. 08:07 AM - Re: DJ's web photos and Corvair pics (DJ Vegh) 9. 12:57 PM - Re: I'm a little bugged (walter evans) 10. 04:16 PM - saving $$$ (Ed Grentzer) 11. 08:09 PM - Re: saving $$$ (ZigoDan@aol.com) 12. 08:09 PM - Re: saving $$$ (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 13. 10:56 PM - Re: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study (clif) 14. 11:15 PM - Re: weight balance (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:18 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Yet there are those current Piets whose empty weight is remarkably close to BHP's 630. Mike Cuy's weighs in at 632. Corky's new bird is very close as well (I don't remember the actual weight - I remember being alarmed when Corky's bathroom scales indicated a weight under 600 lbs and I was afraid he had forgotten his wings). Mine is still a work in progress and was heading for a weight around 630 until I learned that Raleigh is going to Class B airspace and I decided to add an electrical system and some avionics. Now it looks like mine will be around 665. That stuff does add up. I think as someone mentioned before, BHP used wood somewhat under the specified dimensions, measuring to the outside of the saw kerf so 1" x 1" lumber was actually 7/8" x 7/8". If I built another one I would do the same thing. Tailwheels and brakes add a lot. So does modern epoxy varnish and covering materials. Note that very few of the original Pietenpols from the '30's survive today, and those that do have had extensive rebuilds. I wonder what the weight was of the "Last Original" Pietenpol built with the Corvair engine. I think the key is to really watch the weight of every single item you install. I have suggested to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce and Specialty that they should include the actual weight of every item in their catalog. Often I would decide between two different items based solely on weight. Jack -----Original Message----- --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" I find it interesting that the average empty weight of these 8 Piets is 713.625 pounds. Kinda seems to me that all the weight difference between the 630 pounds that Mr Pietenpol posted as the empty weight for his planes has been added to by brakes, tailwheel maybe electrical, seat cushions, little things that "make it stronger", little extras that "really don't add any weight" etc. of our modern builders. Today we are using other woods, fir for instance that weighs about 25% more than spruce, putting on heavier finishes, using more finish to protect the wooden airframe and it all adds up. Believe me, I know cause I've been there! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:52 AM PST US From: John_Duprey@vmed.org Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged 12/04/2002 07:39:49 AM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John_Duprey@vmed.org Yes if " Picture is worth one thousand words" Why is a photo album of your years of work not a log? I would go with the fact that your photo album is a log. Good Luck with the Fed Man John Duprey In Wintery Massachusetts "Hubbard, Eugene" @matronics.com on 12/03/2002 08:19:15 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com cc: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" Walter, Think of it this way: Your photos aren't "as good as a log" they ARE a log. I'm sure you've arranged them sequentially, and put them in an album. They show what you did, and when you did it. What else can they ask for? Gene Hubbard ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:29 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Walt---My inspector here in Cleveland did not ask for a building log but I did provide him with tons of photos taken during construction, all my invoices from Wicks, Dillsburg, ASS, and such. That was as Jack P. and Webster's said "a record of perfomance". And it varies from inspector to inspector I'm sure. My guy simply got me the proper form, send me over to the FSDO office and I filled it out. The guy there mailed it to OKC and about a month later I got my repairman's ticket in the mail at home. I forwarded your e-mail Walt to my inspector in Cleve. here this AM to get his advice. Will forward that to the list when he replies. You should not have to mess around with creating an after-the-fact log since you have so many legitimate documents that are dated and show progress to even a 3rd grader. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:33 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: DJ's web photos and Corvair pics --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Group---I took some time to look over not only DJ's GN-1/Piet construction photos but the rest of his site in general. This guy is quite talented and accomplished in many areas of life for his youthful age ! What a great setup for milling the Corvair intake and head with a router and plywood !!! Super web site design, photos, builder log, helicopter, and RC construction. He has even managed to find time to get his private pilot license and be the father of an 8 year old boy. (makes me feel like a couch potato !) Anyway, if you guys get a chance check out his web site: http://www.raptoronline.com PS--DJ is right about the GN-1 being way over-designed. He's wise to be trimming things that just don't need to be there. I was kind of shocked when I saw how beefy some of the steel assemblies were on the GN-1...saw one in person being built a few years ago. (the guy thought he bought a Pietenpol.) do not archive. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:39 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail-end Charlie --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Notice the list of contributors that Matt Dralle posted. Notice the last name on the list. See what I mean about always being last? ;o) And just so this post won't be a complete waste of bandwidth, here's a Piet-related item. Ernie Moreno still has his Piet for sale up in Oregon (photos on my website, at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets.html). Let's see: Ernie and a buddy completed a Sky Pup, he is just now finishing up a Legal Eagle, has completed two WeedHoppers, is working on an Independence Flyer, and of course has his Tri-Pacer, another ultralight, and the Piet available to fly as well. Some guys have all the fun! Oscar Zuniga (do not archive) San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:16 AM PST US From: Ken Rickards Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Rickards D.J. Have you made any other weight saving changes? I am building ribs, and the only weight I have saved so far is routing out the center of the nose blocks, but a 1 1/4" dia piece of 1/2" marine plywood may add up to 1/2 lb for all the ribs. Not much, but every little bit helps. Ken -----Original Message----- From: DJ Vegh [mailto:aircamper@imagedv.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" i'm pretty much sticking to plans except for fuselage. The GN-1 is WAY overbuilt. The ply sides go from firewall to tail post. I'm doing my ply sides to just aft of the rear seat and oversized gussets from there to the tail. GN-1's are known for being tail heavy. For every pound saved at the tail you shave 4 off the total weight. I'm using a Cub gear on mine with a '65 110 Corvair. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McNarry" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" > > DJ and Matt > The best part about homebuilding and plans built aircraft is that you can > make changes. Just be sure the changes are for the better. Some one once > told me "If it isn't in the plans, toss it into the air, if it comes down > don't put it into your airplane!" Funny, but if no one changed anything, > would we be flying at all? Just make sure it is structurally a sound method > and as Graham has said "add lightness and simplicate!" > DJ, sounds about where I'm going. Are you using a moveable wing? What > engine and landing gear? > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > absolutley you can! Thats what I am doing. A GN-1 Piet hybrid. I'm going > an all GN-1 wing and a GN-1/Piet mix fuse. lots of pics on my site > www.raptoronline.com > > DJ > www.raptoronline.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mixing Piet and GN1 Plans > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" > > > > > O.K. Everyone, here's the question. I am building the "long" version of > the Piet. I plan to use a continental engine. I really like the look of the > GN1 with the Cub cowling. Looking further, I really like using "off the > shelf" cub parts . The GN1 engine mount, the fuel tank, and the cowling are > all Pure J-3. Can I "mix" plans...that is build a Plans built Piet, up to > the firewall, then build the GN-1 firewall forward ? I love the idea of > using easily obtainable Cub parts. Will the DAR have any problems with this > ? I have found Cub parts, but before I purchase, I would like the experts > out there to respond. > > > > Anyone out there have metal parts from Replicraft that they are not going > to use? I seem to have started my project just after they went T U. I > especially need wing hardware and torque tube/flight control parts. > > > > Matt Miller > > > > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by > Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more > information on an anti-virus email solution, visit > . > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:07 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy >some notes from our local feds for Walt, others....... > > AC65.23 is the guidance used for applying for a repairman certificate. >AC20-27E discussed repair application also. Unfortunately, some of the FSDO >inspectors think they have to go out and re-inspect the airplane after it >has had it airworthiness certificate issued, the Cleveland FSDO included. >The intent, for the FSDO inspector is to ensure that the applicant is the >primary and/or designated builder of the airplane. And as you stated, this >can be accomplished by many means, i.e. builders log, photographs, >receipts, etc. I have seen now the "builders log" consist of a EXCEL >spreadsheet. These guys are a bit over zealous for me though. Once the >guy signs the Eligibility Statement Amateur-Built Aircraft, FAA Form8130-12 >and has it notarized, he is stating that he built the airplane. This is a >very legal document which carries penalties, fine and prison. (Not that >that would ever happen though) The individual who certificated the >airplane can also provide substantiation as to who the builder of the >aircraft is, this may be a FAA inspector or DAR. They also have to verify >who the builder is. But sometimes these FSDO inspectors are very >suspicious of someone's else's work and don't trust anyone, again Cleveland >FSDO included. Are you beginning to see a pattern here. I have >encountered the same situation in our area as this guy has run in to. You >also run into the inspectors who have a one track mind, "builders log" >means only one thing. It better say builders log on the cover or it can't >be a builders log. This guy will just have to make his case to the >inspector that he indeed built the airplane and has the necessary skills to >perform the condition inspection. One thing also to remember, the >repairman certificate is just to accomplish the condition inspection. It >has nothing to do with performing any maintenance on the airplane. The >builder can do all kinds of maintenance, repairs, modifications, but can't >do the condition inspection unless he has the repairman certificate. This >inspector doesn't have a clue on the "big picture" of amateur built >aircraft. Enough of my soapbox, some of this may be helpful. One last >thing, the applicant can speak to this inspectors supervisor and request to >have a more knowledgeable inspector issue the certificate. > >This is a the web address to the FSDO inspector handbook which he uses to >issue repairmen's certificates. >http://www2.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8300/8300_vol2/2_025_00.pdf ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:42 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DJ's web photos and Corvair pics --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" wow Mike! thanks for the kind words! I feel do feel so lucky to have what I have and be where I'm at for only 28 yrs old. I had a rough childhood at times so I think God/Karma has thrown in a little to make up for it .... hehehe I need to update the aircamper log. I've done about 30 hours of work that I havent put up there yet. Got the rear instrument panel installed and combing done. Now to the front panel. My dad says it's finally starting to look like a plane. HA! Also... regarding my RC stuff ....anyone on this list can get my 1/8 scale Pietenpol RC plane plans for free :-) email me for details. ps - I have to give Pat Panzera credit for the sweet idea on the Corvair head milling jig. I saw one on his site and knew that I'd have to do mine the same way..... if anyone needs thier head milled let me know. DJ Vegh www.raptoronline.com do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Pietenpol-List: DJ's web photos and Corvair pics > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > Group---I took some time to look over not only DJ's GN-1/Piet construction > photos but the rest of his site in general. This guy is quite talented and > accomplished in many areas of life for his youthful age ! What a great > setup for milling the Corvair intake and head with a router and plywood > !!! Super web site design, photos, builder log, helicopter, and RC > construction. He has even managed to find time to get his private pilot > license and be the father of an 8 year old boy. (makes me feel like a > couch potato !) Anyway, if you guys get a chance check out his web > site: http://www.raptoronline.com > > PS--DJ is right about the GN-1 being way over-designed. He's wise to be > trimming things that just don't need to be there. I was kind of shocked > when I saw how beefy some of the steel assemblies were on the GN-1...saw > one in person being built a few years ago. (the guy thought he bought a > Pietenpol.) > > do not archive. > > Mike C. > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:08 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Thanks to all who replied, I guess it is the idea that I have a log, and he told me in so many words to go and make one. Seemed more interested in building hours. Again he admits that he had not done one these before. Guess that's how it is in Gov't. This way when his superior asks him if he saw a building log, he can say yes. Said it didn't have to be fancy. Flying to Fl. to see Mom tomorrow, and I hate how the two flights mean sitting for hours in the two different airports waiting for interconnecting flights. This way I'll take my notes, My new spiral bound "log to be" and start making four years worth of entries. Come Monday P.M. on the rebound, I'll have a log. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. Funny that I'll have about 10 times the hours in the log as getting it inspected by the DAR walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I'm a little bugged > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > Walt---My inspector here in Cleveland did not ask for a building log but I > did provide him with > tons of photos taken during construction, all my invoices from Wicks, > Dillsburg, ASS, and such. > That was as Jack P. and Webster's said "a record of perfomance". And it > varies from inspector to > inspector I'm sure. My guy simply got me the proper form, send me over > to the FSDO office and I > filled it out. The guy there mailed it to OKC and about a month later I > got my repairman's ticket in the mail > at home. > > I forwarded your e-mail Walt to my inspector in Cleve. here this AM to get > his advice. Will forward that to > the list when he replies. You should not have to mess around with > creating an after-the-fact log since you have > so many legitimate documents that are dated and show progress to even a 3rd > grader. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:11 PM PST US From: "Ed Grentzer" Subject: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed Grentzer" A while back Doc Mosher wrote a note to the list about saving money on tubing by dealing with Dillsburg Aeroplane works ( I think that's the proper full name )in Pennsylvania. I've dealt with them before but for those non-belivers ( if there are any ) I ordered my cabane strut streamlined tubing this morning. I called Dillsburg useing the dimensions from the ACS cataloge, ACS's price is $17.60 per foot. Dillsburg quoted me $9.00 per foot for exactly the same tubing and also had it in several different wall thicknesses which ACS doesn't. When I seemed surprized that they had different wall thicknesses the fellow at Dillsburg said that they have "the most complete inventory of tubing in the world". That's real close to half price!!! I saved $69.00 on the eight feet that I ordered!!!! Like Doc I have no business interest with Dillsburg but to buy streamlined tubing from the aircraft cataloges is like throwing money away. They took my credit card # and shipped it today. Ed G. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:08 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com What's the number to them, or how can I contact them? Dan ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:38 PM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com Please send the Contact phone # or email address to Dillsburg. Thanks. T.Bowden ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:14 PM PST US From: clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif OK, so if Bernards plane weighed 630 and the stated wt of the model A is 244 lbs in the Flying and Glider manual, then the complete airframe, including radiator weighed 386 lb. The next point is that Mike et al are using much lighter AC engines and the weight is essentialy the same. Hmmmmm. It looks like Corky's airframe must be a lot closer to Bernards. On Bernards cutting and measuring practices, my understanding was that he measured to the center of the cut, making 1"= 15/16. A quibble, I know but points out the differences in info we each work from even though building the same plane from the same plans. But then that's why our list is so active, isn't it. Pity those folks with their $300 absolutely complete and accurate plans, takes all the fun away! ( sorry, I couldn't help myself. haha!) One more thing and I'll go away. Since the strength of fir corresponds to its higher wt/sq. inch, aren't you fir guys cutting your parts to correspondingly smaller dimensions?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Yet there are those current Piets whose empty weight is remarkably close to > BHP's 630. Mike Cuy's weighs in at 632. Corky's new bird is very close as > well (I don't remember the actual weight - I remember being alarmed when > Corky's bathroom scales indicated a weight under 600 lbs and I was afraid he > had forgotten his wings). Mine is still a work in progress and was heading > for a weight around 630 until I learned that Raleigh is going to Class B > airspace and I decided to add an electrical system and some avionics. Now > it looks like mine will be around 665. That stuff does add up. > > I think as someone mentioned before, BHP used wood somewhat under the > specified dimensions, measuring to the outside of the saw kerf so 1" x 1" > lumber was actually 7/8" x 7/8". If I built another one I would do the same > thing. Tailwheels and brakes add a lot. So does modern epoxy varnish and > covering materials. Note that very few of the original Pietenpols from the > '30's survive today, and those that do have had extensive rebuilds. I > wonder what the weight was of the "Last Original" Pietenpol built with the > Corvair engine. > > I think the key is to really watch the weight of every single item you > install. I have suggested to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce and Specialty that > they should include the actual weight of every item in their catalog. Often > I would decide between two different items based solely on weight. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" > > > I find it interesting that the average empty weight of these 8 Piets is > 713.625 pounds. Kinda seems to me that all the weight difference between > the 630 pounds that Mr Pietenpol posted as the empty weight for his planes > has been added to by brakes, tailwheel maybe electrical, seat cushions, > little things that "make it stronger", little extras that "really don't add > any weight" etc. of our modern builders. Today we are using other woods, fir > for instance that weighs about 25% more than spruce, putting on heavier > finishes, using more finish to protect the wooden airframe and it all adds > up. Believe me, I know cause I've been there! > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:44 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weight balance --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 12/3/02 9:50:38 PM Central Standard Time, horzpool@goldengate.net writes: << It appears that when you did your second set of calculations that you subtracted the weight of the Model A and added the A-65 but your figures for the three weight points did not change. I don't think that you can assume that. >> In doing weight and ballance, the initial total weight is attained by adding the numbers on the scale (less tare weight). The reference is the center of gravity. The datam was the firewall, where the measurements were taken from. When you subtract or add weight (on paper), the total weight changes, as does the C.G. The total weight did not stay the same, as the numbers indicate. Chuck G.