Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:04 AM - Re: saving $$$ (flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.))
2. 06:47 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Greg Cardinal)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Michael D Cuy)
4. 07:19 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Kent Hallsten)
5. 07:27 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Greg Cardinal)
6. 07:55 AM - Re: saving $$$ (kirk)
7. 08:19 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Ken Rickards)
8. 08:22 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Christian Bobka)
9. 08:29 AM - Re: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study (Hubbard, Eugene)
10. 05:04 PM - Re: saving $$$ (Kip & Beth Gardner)
11. 05:06 PM - Wood landing gear (The Huizenga's)
12. 06:26 PM - center section fuel tank (Oscar Zuniga)
13. 06:44 PM - 65 HP climb rate (Oscar Zuniga)
14. 07:20 PM - Wheels-Tires (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
15. 07:31 PM - Sirius Aviation, in Masquite TX Has anyone used them for supplies (ZigoDan@aol.com)
16. 08:25 PM - Re: New, NEW List Digest Format... (steamlaunch@softhome.net)
Message 1
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.)
"The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works"
Charles Vogelsong
114 Sawmill rd.
Dillsburg, Pa 17019
( 717 ) 432-4589
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal@startribune.com>
I, too, give Dillsburg high remarks for price and service.
In 6 six years of dealing with them I have only had one item on
back-order and their pricing on steel can't be beat.
Your order is shipped the day you call it in.
And for those of you who are scratching your heads over gage-to-decimal
conversions here is my list:
Gage to decimal conversion for TUBING
11 ga .120
12 ga N/A
13 ga .095
14 ga .083
16 ga .065
17 ga .058
18 ga .049
20 ga .035
22 ga .028
Gage to decimal conversion for SHEET
11 ga .125
12 ga .100
13 ga .090
14 ga .080
16 ga .063
18 ga .050
20 ga .040
22 ga .032 or .025
Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis
>>> flyboy_120@webtv.net 12/05/02 05:03AM >>>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.)
"The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works"
Charles Vogelsong
114 Sawmill rd.
Dillsburg, Pa 17019
( 717 ) 432-4589
Message 3
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Dillsburg is great. Fast shipping, accurate, high-quality AN hardware,
cables, steel, sheet alum. Virtually every single AN part, cable, lift
strut, sheet steel, nicopress fittings, etc. etc. etc. even cowling alum.
and firewall (made mine of dead soft stainless steel) came from Dillsburg.
nothing fancy about them though--which was fine for me. I can't believe
that Charlie Vogellsong broke down and now takes credit cards !!!! That
was a smart move.
Mike C.
Message 4
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
Does Dillsburg have a catalog?
Kent
Message 5
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal@startribune.com>
Send him 3 or 4 stamps and you will receive a price list.
Greg C.
>>> KHallsten@governair.com 12/05/02 09:18AM >>>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
<KHallsten@Governair.com>
Does Dillsburg have a catalog?
Kent
Message 6
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested
Kirk
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
><KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>Does Dillsburg have a catalog?
>
>Kent
>
>
Message 7
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Rickards <krickards@cvci.com>
Yes! How can I get a copy.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: kirk [mailto:kirkh@unique-software.com]
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested
Kirk
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
><KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>Does Dillsburg have a catalog?
>
>Kent
>
>
Message 8
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
Send it along.
bobka@charter.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kirk
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested
Kirk
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten"
><KHallsten@Governair.com>
>
>Does Dillsburg have a catalog?
>
>Kent
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Brodhead Weight & Ballance study |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com>
Is that edge of wood to center (= 15/16") or center of cut to center of cut
(= 7/8")? I don't remember seeing that reference--does anyone remember
where it came from? You also wonder just which pieces he measured that
way--for the longerons it seems pretty reasonable, but the spars are drawn
at 1 inch true dimension, and the rib caps would be getting pretty light.
As far as plans go, I (sort of) agree. I might even buy them if I hadn't
already finished most of my woodwork. In any case, a set of redrawn plans
wouldn't be "the" Air Camper, it would just be the "2002 plans" as opposed
to the "1927 plans" or the "1934 plans". Nobody is going to risk the
liability of showing the #7 wood screws holding on the tail, and as we all
know, without those, it can't be a "real" Pietenpol!
Gene Hubbard
in San Diego trying to figure out how to stuff a C75 into a narrow cowling.
-----Original Message-----
From: clif [mailto:cdawson5854@shaw.ca]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
OK, so if Bernards plane weighed 630 and the
stated wt of the model A is 244 lbs in the Flying
and Glider manual, then the complete airframe,
including radiator weighed 386 lb.
The next point is that Mike et al are using much
lighter AC engines and the weight is essentialy the
same. Hmmmmm.
It looks like Corky's airframe must be a lot closer to
Bernards.
On Bernards cutting and measuring practices, my
understanding was that he measured to the center
of the cut, making 1"= 15/16. A quibble, I know
but points out the differences in info we each work
from even though building the same plane from the
same plans. But then that's why our list is so active,
isn't it. Pity those folks with their $300 absolutely
complete and accurate plans, takes all the fun
away! ( sorry, I couldn't help myself. haha!)
One more thing and I'll go away. Since the strength
of fir corresponds to its higher wt/sq. inch, aren't
you fir guys cutting your parts to correspondingly
smaller dimensions??
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips"
<jackphillips@earthlink.net>
>
> Yet there are those current Piets whose empty weight is remarkably close
to
> BHP's 630. Mike Cuy's weighs in at 632. Corky's new bird is very close
as
> well (I don't remember the actual weight - I remember being alarmed when
> Corky's bathroom scales indicated a weight under 600 lbs and I was afraid
he
> had forgotten his wings). Mine is still a work in progress and was
heading
> for a weight around 630 until I learned that Raleigh is going to Class B
> airspace and I decided to add an electrical system and some avionics. Now
> it looks like mine will be around 665. That stuff does add up.
>
> I think as someone mentioned before, BHP used wood somewhat under the
> specified dimensions, measuring to the outside of the saw kerf so 1" x 1"
> lumber was actually 7/8" x 7/8". If I built another one I would do the
same
> thing. Tailwheels and brakes add a lot. So does modern epoxy varnish and
> covering materials. Note that very few of the original Pietenpols from
the
> '30's survive today, and those that do have had extensive rebuilds. I
> wonder what the weight was of the "Last Original" Pietenpol built with the
> Corvair engine.
>
> I think the key is to really watch the weight of every single item you
> install. I have suggested to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce and Specialty that
> they should include the actual weight of every item in their catalog.
Often
> I would decide between two different items based solely on weight.
>
> Jack
>
> -----Original Message-----
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
>
>
> I find it interesting that the average empty weight of these 8 Piets is
> 713.625 pounds. Kinda seems to me that all the weight difference between
> the 630 pounds that Mr Pietenpol posted as the empty weight for his planes
> has been added to by brakes, tailwheel maybe electrical, seat cushions,
> little things that "make it stronger", little extras that "really don't
add
> any weight" etc. of our modern builders. Today we are using other woods,
fir
> for instance that weighs about 25% more than spruce, putting on heavier
> finishes, using more finish to protect the wooden airframe and it all adds
> up. Believe me, I know cause I've been there!
>
>
Message 10
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
At 10:54 AM -0500 12/05/02, kirk wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
>
>I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested
>
>Kirk
Kirk,
Yes, please me a copy at:
gardner.698@osu.edu
Thanks!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
Message 11
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| Subject: | Wood landing gear |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "The Huizenga's" <kirkh@unique-software.com>
I'm looking for helpful hints in figuring out the cuts for wood
landing gear. I am certain that some of you have come up with some
clever ways to get everything straight and the angles figured out.
I have pine blanks cut to test it out and most certainly will need to
cut more by the time I'm ready for the Ash. I'm working off the
Flying and Glider Manual plans.
At Brodhead I overheard someone talking about using string to figure
out the angles and such, but I'd love to hear any others.
Thanks
Kirk
--
Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery
Message 12
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| Subject: | center section fuel tank |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Howdy, folks;
Just talked with William Wynne and I thought to ask him about his "wet
center section" fuel tank since someone asked about it a few days ago. As
some of you may know, William is quite experienced in composite work so he
glassed in the center section bay on his plane to create an integral fuel
tank. It held 17 U.S. gallons and he says every bit was usable. As we
suspected, the tank placement kept the CG fairly stable no matter the fuel
load.
William's fuel tank remained completely intact after the crash (spun in from
about 80' AGL after a carb ice engine stoppage, then burned), and he has no
reservations about his approach to carrying fuel there. The problem had to
do with the aluminum fuel lines at the forward and aft ends of the tank,
which led down the cabanes. These lines broke or sheared off when the wing
was shifted violently to one side in the crash, and the fuel leaked from
them. William says they make a crashworthy fitting with a check ball
arrangement that stops the flow of fuel if the tank fitting is broken off.
It is some sort of AN-pattern fitting, but I haven't looked for it to see
what he's talking about.
Bottom line is that the wet center section tank, properly glassed in and
fitted, is a good alternative to the preformed metal tank in the wing or
header. Gravity flow is assured, CG stays put, and capacity is good enough
for most sport flying (the Corvair will run about 3 hrs. on 17 gal., but
don't go hammering me on that because your mileage results may vary!)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
Message 13
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| Subject: | 65 HP climb rate |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers;
More from my conversation with William Wynne about his Corvair-powered Piet,
this time about climb rate. For background, William's Piet weighed 730 lbs.
empty. At Sun 'N' Fun 2000 his friend Gus gave numerous rides in the plane
and saw climb rates of at least 500 fpm, sometimes 650-700 according to
William. Gus, fitted out and ready to fly, weighs close to 300 lbs.
according to William. He flew passengers weighing up to 260 lbs., had it
topped off with fuel (17 gal.), and the temp was in the 90's at times during
SNF. So here we have a plane weighing nearly 1500 lbs., flying with high
ambient temperatures, and still climbing well. Friends, don't try this
without at least 100 honest HP! Let's say we have a 5,000' long runway
(about a mile). At a little under a mile a minute, we'll need that 500 fpm
to make it to pattern altitude before it's time to stabilize at pattern
altitude, chop power and turn base.
William made the point that a typical Piet needs about 40 HP to maintain
best climb speed of 55 MPH (don't quote me on those numbers; we're talking
comparisons only for the moment). That leaves maybe 25 HP from a 65 HP
engine as "excess" to make the plane climb. The typical "Bernie Corvair"
using a blower motor and not much internal revision in the conversion can
certainly produce 65 or 70 HP, but a clean conversion with the recommended
cam and distributor is a solid 100 HP. With a 100 HP engine, there is a
"surplus" of 60 HP available... 2.4 times as much "climb reserve" as a 65
HP. Do I sound like a Corvair salesman yet? ;o)
Oscar Ziga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 14
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
Hello Chuck Gantzer,
How's your Piet flying?
Hey I am finally getting back to work on my project. Finally found a place
to work on it here in TX. Please send me the supplier source for the wheels
and tires you used on your Piet. What did you pay? What was the assembled
weight for each?
Happy Holidays.
Terry B.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Sirius Aviation, in Masquite TX Has anyone used them for |
supplies
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com
I found this supply house called Sirius Aviation in Mesquite, TX, since I
live in Southern Oklahoma I could drive down to pick up my wood.
They sell Sitka spruce, Douglas Fir, and Hemlock. They also sell plywood and
other materials like hardware.
I just wondered if anyone could give me an idea about their service, and
quality.
I had sent a request to them for a price quote, they were very slow about
getting back with me. In fact after waiting a couple weeks I E-mailed them
and said I would have to place my order with Wicks if they did not reply. I
got my request back in a few hours. Please let me know if you have any
insight about this company.
Dan
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: New, NEW List Digest Format... |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: steamlaunch@softhome.net
Matt
How do I switch to the digest version of the Pietenpol Email service?
Matt
Matt Dralle writes:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> Okay, so I woke up this morning to an email box full of hate-mail about the
> new List Digest format. I thought it was cool, but I guess not... Still,
> it seemed like too much code to just throw out, so I've modified things a
> little and I'm hoping everyone will be happy with the new, NEW
> arrangement. Here's how it works now:
>
> o The HTML and TXT enclosures aren't sent in the Digest any longer.
>
> o URL Links to the HTML and TEXT versions of the day's Digests
> will be found at the top of the digest email.
>
> o The new Digest Index will be found at the top of the digest email
> following the URL Links.
>
> o The full digest text will then be found in the email as before.
>
> o All of the previous Digests will now be available on line. The
> URL for the main digest page is:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest
>
> From here, you can drill into the specific List Digest of interest.
>
> o Both the HTML and TXT versions of the Digests can be found here.
>
> o The List Message Trailer will contain a Link directly to the given
>
> o Right now there's only one Digest shown, but each day there will
> be another. They will be sorted with the newest at the top.
> Left-hand column is the HTML version, right-hand column the TXT
> version.
>
> A couple people also complained that some messages in the HTML version were
> just one long line that went off to the right forever and they hated
> that. Come to think of it, this is also an issue in the Search Engine,
> List Browser, and Archive Browser. Some email programs don't included hard
> Returns at regular intervals and that's what causes this. I wrote a
> program tonight that will automatically chop these long lines into 78
> characters or less and wrap the rest of the line. After tonight's Archive
> transfer, all of the Searching and Browsing tools shouldn't have the
> problem any longer either. Woo hoo!
>
> So, back to the new Digest format. What people are going to see in the
> new, NEW Digest is a bit of verbiage at the top of the email describing the
> URL links to the HTML and TXT on-line versions, followed by the Links,
> followed by the day's Index, followed by the day's messages just as
> before. Lines longer than 78 characters will also be automatically wrapped
> onto the next line.
>
> Hopefully this will be a more pleasing arrangement for everyone. Sorry to
> get everybody so stirred up over the format change!
>
> The List of Contributors is coming out tomorrow night... Still time to
> make that Contribution! http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt Dralle
> Email List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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