---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/05/02: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:04 AM - Re: saving $$$ (flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.)) 2. 06:47 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Greg Cardinal) 3. 07:01 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Michael D Cuy) 4. 07:19 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Kent Hallsten) 5. 07:27 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Greg Cardinal) 6. 07:55 AM - Re: saving $$$ (kirk) 7. 08:19 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Ken Rickards) 8. 08:22 AM - Re: saving $$$ (Christian Bobka) 9. 08:29 AM - Re: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study (Hubbard, Eugene) 10. 05:04 PM - Re: saving $$$ (Kip & Beth Gardner) 11. 05:06 PM - Wood landing gear (The Huizenga's) 12. 06:26 PM - center section fuel tank (Oscar Zuniga) 13. 06:44 PM - 65 HP climb rate (Oscar Zuniga) 14. 07:20 PM - Wheels-Tires (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 15. 07:31 PM - Sirius Aviation, in Masquite TX Has anyone used them for supplies (ZigoDan@aol.com) 16. 08:25 PM - Re: New, NEW List Digest Format... (steamlaunch@softhome.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:36 AM PST US From: flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.) "The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works" Charles Vogelsong 114 Sawmill rd. Dillsburg, Pa 17019 ( 717 ) 432-4589 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:32 AM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Cardinal" I, too, give Dillsburg high remarks for price and service. In 6 six years of dealing with them I have only had one item on back-order and their pricing on steel can't be beat. Your order is shipped the day you call it in. And for those of you who are scratching your heads over gage-to-decimal conversions here is my list: Gage to decimal conversion for TUBING 11 ga .120 12 ga N/A 13 ga .095 14 ga .083 16 ga .065 17 ga .058 18 ga .049 20 ga .035 22 ga .028 Gage to decimal conversion for SHEET 11 ga .125 12 ga .100 13 ga .090 14 ga .080 16 ga .063 18 ga .050 20 ga .040 22 ga .032 or .025 Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis >>> flyboy_120@webtv.net 12/05/02 05:03AM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: flyboy_120@webtv.net (Ed G.) "The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works" Charles Vogelsong 114 Sawmill rd. Dillsburg, Pa 17019 ( 717 ) 432-4589 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:15 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Dillsburg is great. Fast shipping, accurate, high-quality AN hardware, cables, steel, sheet alum. Virtually every single AN part, cable, lift strut, sheet steel, nicopress fittings, etc. etc. etc. even cowling alum. and firewall (made mine of dead soft stainless steel) came from Dillsburg. nothing fancy about them though--which was fine for me. I can't believe that Charlie Vogellsong broke down and now takes credit cards !!!! That was a smart move. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ From: "Kent Hallsten" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" Does Dillsburg have a catalog? Kent ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:49 AM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Cardinal" Send him 3 or 4 stamps and you will receive a price list. Greg C. >>> KHallsten@governair.com 12/05/02 09:18AM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" Does Dillsburg have a catalog? Kent ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:59 AM PST US From: kirk Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested Kirk >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" > > >Does Dillsburg have a catalog? > >Kent > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:07 AM PST US From: Ken Rickards Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Rickards Yes! How can I get a copy. Ken -----Original Message----- From: kirk [mailto:kirkh@unique-software.com] Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested Kirk >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" > > >Does Dillsburg have a catalog? > >Kent > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:23 AM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Send it along. bobka@charter.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kirk Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested Kirk >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" > > >Does Dillsburg have a catalog? > >Kent > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:04 AM PST US From: "Hubbard, Eugene" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" Is that edge of wood to center (= 15/16") or center of cut to center of cut (= 7/8")? I don't remember seeing that reference--does anyone remember where it came from? You also wonder just which pieces he measured that way--for the longerons it seems pretty reasonable, but the spars are drawn at 1 inch true dimension, and the rib caps would be getting pretty light. As far as plans go, I (sort of) agree. I might even buy them if I hadn't already finished most of my woodwork. In any case, a set of redrawn plans wouldn't be "the" Air Camper, it would just be the "2002 plans" as opposed to the "1927 plans" or the "1934 plans". Nobody is going to risk the liability of showing the #7 wood screws holding on the tail, and as we all know, without those, it can't be a "real" Pietenpol! Gene Hubbard in San Diego trying to figure out how to stuff a C75 into a narrow cowling. -----Original Message----- From: clif [mailto:cdawson5854@shaw.ca] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif OK, so if Bernards plane weighed 630 and the stated wt of the model A is 244 lbs in the Flying and Glider manual, then the complete airframe, including radiator weighed 386 lb. The next point is that Mike et al are using much lighter AC engines and the weight is essentialy the same. Hmmmmm. It looks like Corky's airframe must be a lot closer to Bernards. On Bernards cutting and measuring practices, my understanding was that he measured to the center of the cut, making 1"= 15/16. A quibble, I know but points out the differences in info we each work from even though building the same plane from the same plans. But then that's why our list is so active, isn't it. Pity those folks with their $300 absolutely complete and accurate plans, takes all the fun away! ( sorry, I couldn't help myself. haha!) One more thing and I'll go away. Since the strength of fir corresponds to its higher wt/sq. inch, aren't you fir guys cutting your parts to correspondingly smaller dimensions?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Weight & Ballance study > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Yet there are those current Piets whose empty weight is remarkably close to > BHP's 630. Mike Cuy's weighs in at 632. Corky's new bird is very close as > well (I don't remember the actual weight - I remember being alarmed when > Corky's bathroom scales indicated a weight under 600 lbs and I was afraid he > had forgotten his wings). Mine is still a work in progress and was heading > for a weight around 630 until I learned that Raleigh is going to Class B > airspace and I decided to add an electrical system and some avionics. Now > it looks like mine will be around 665. That stuff does add up. > > I think as someone mentioned before, BHP used wood somewhat under the > specified dimensions, measuring to the outside of the saw kerf so 1" x 1" > lumber was actually 7/8" x 7/8". If I built another one I would do the same > thing. Tailwheels and brakes add a lot. So does modern epoxy varnish and > covering materials. Note that very few of the original Pietenpols from the > '30's survive today, and those that do have had extensive rebuilds. I > wonder what the weight was of the "Last Original" Pietenpol built with the > Corvair engine. > > I think the key is to really watch the weight of every single item you > install. I have suggested to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce and Specialty that > they should include the actual weight of every item in their catalog. Often > I would decide between two different items based solely on weight. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" > > > I find it interesting that the average empty weight of these 8 Piets is > 713.625 pounds. Kinda seems to me that all the weight difference between > the 630 pounds that Mr Pietenpol posted as the empty weight for his planes > has been added to by brakes, tailwheel maybe electrical, seat cushions, > little things that "make it stronger", little extras that "really don't add > any weight" etc. of our modern builders. Today we are using other woods, fir > for instance that weighs about 25% more than spruce, putting on heavier > finishes, using more finish to protect the wooden airframe and it all adds > up. Believe me, I know cause I've been there! > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:27 PM PST US From: Kip & Beth Gardner Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: saving $$$ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner At 10:54 AM -0500 12/05/02, kirk wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk > >I've scanned and converted the price list to .pdf if any one is interested > >Kirk Kirk, Yes, please me a copy at: gardner.698@osu.edu Thanks! Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:00 PM PST US From: "The Huizenga's" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "The Huizenga's" I'm looking for helpful hints in figuring out the cuts for wood landing gear. I am certain that some of you have come up with some clever ways to get everything straight and the angles figured out. I have pine blanks cut to test it out and most certainly will need to cut more by the time I'm ready for the Ash. I'm working off the Flying and Glider Manual plans. At Brodhead I overheard someone talking about using string to figure out the angles and such, but I'd love to hear any others. Thanks Kirk -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:03 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section fuel tank --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Howdy, folks; Just talked with William Wynne and I thought to ask him about his "wet center section" fuel tank since someone asked about it a few days ago. As some of you may know, William is quite experienced in composite work so he glassed in the center section bay on his plane to create an integral fuel tank. It held 17 U.S. gallons and he says every bit was usable. As we suspected, the tank placement kept the CG fairly stable no matter the fuel load. William's fuel tank remained completely intact after the crash (spun in from about 80' AGL after a carb ice engine stoppage, then burned), and he has no reservations about his approach to carrying fuel there. The problem had to do with the aluminum fuel lines at the forward and aft ends of the tank, which led down the cabanes. These lines broke or sheared off when the wing was shifted violently to one side in the crash, and the fuel leaked from them. William says they make a crashworthy fitting with a check ball arrangement that stops the flow of fuel if the tank fitting is broken off. It is some sort of AN-pattern fitting, but I haven't looked for it to see what he's talking about. Bottom line is that the wet center section tank, properly glassed in and fitted, is a good alternative to the preformed metal tank in the wing or header. Gravity flow is assured, CG stays put, and capacity is good enough for most sport flying (the Corvair will run about 3 hrs. on 17 gal., but don't go hammering me on that because your mileage results may vary!) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:25 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: 65 HP climb rate --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; More from my conversation with William Wynne about his Corvair-powered Piet, this time about climb rate. For background, William's Piet weighed 730 lbs. empty. At Sun 'N' Fun 2000 his friend Gus gave numerous rides in the plane and saw climb rates of at least 500 fpm, sometimes 650-700 according to William. Gus, fitted out and ready to fly, weighs close to 300 lbs. according to William. He flew passengers weighing up to 260 lbs., had it topped off with fuel (17 gal.), and the temp was in the 90's at times during SNF. So here we have a plane weighing nearly 1500 lbs., flying with high ambient temperatures, and still climbing well. Friends, don't try this without at least 100 honest HP! Let's say we have a 5,000' long runway (about a mile). At a little under a mile a minute, we'll need that 500 fpm to make it to pattern altitude before it's time to stabilize at pattern altitude, chop power and turn base. William made the point that a typical Piet needs about 40 HP to maintain best climb speed of 55 MPH (don't quote me on those numbers; we're talking comparisons only for the moment). That leaves maybe 25 HP from a 65 HP engine as "excess" to make the plane climb. The typical "Bernie Corvair" using a blower motor and not much internal revision in the conversion can certainly produce 65 or 70 HP, but a clean conversion with the recommended cam and distributor is a solid 100 HP. With a 100 HP engine, there is a "surplus" of 60 HP available... 2.4 times as much "climb reserve" as a 65 HP. Do I sound like a Corvair salesman yet? ;o) Oscar Ziga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:48 PM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wheels-Tires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com Hello Chuck Gantzer, How's your Piet flying? Hey I am finally getting back to work on my project. Finally found a place to work on it here in TX. Please send me the supplier source for the wheels and tires you used on your Piet. What did you pay? What was the assembled weight for each? Happy Holidays. Terry B. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:34 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sirius Aviation, in Masquite TX Has anyone used them for supplies --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com I found this supply house called Sirius Aviation in Mesquite, TX, since I live in Southern Oklahoma I could drive down to pick up my wood. They sell Sitka spruce, Douglas Fir, and Hemlock. They also sell plywood and other materials like hardware. I just wondered if anyone could give me an idea about their service, and quality. I had sent a request to them for a price quote, they were very slow about getting back with me. In fact after waiting a couple weeks I E-mailed them and said I would have to place my order with Wicks if they did not reply. I got my request back in a few hours. Please let me know if you have any insight about this company. Dan ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:08 PM PST US From: steamlaunch@softhome.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New, NEW List Digest Format... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: steamlaunch@softhome.net Matt How do I switch to the digest version of the Pietenpol Email service? Matt Matt Dralle writes: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle > > > Dear Listers, > > Okay, so I woke up this morning to an email box full of hate-mail about the > new List Digest format. I thought it was cool, but I guess not... Still, > it seemed like too much code to just throw out, so I've modified things a > little and I'm hoping everyone will be happy with the new, NEW > arrangement. Here's how it works now: > > o The HTML and TXT enclosures aren't sent in the Digest any longer. > > o URL Links to the HTML and TEXT versions of the day's Digests > will be found at the top of the digest email. > > o The new Digest Index will be found at the top of the digest email > following the URL Links. > > o The full digest text will then be found in the email as before. > > o All of the previous Digests will now be available on line. The > URL for the main digest page is: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest > > From here, you can drill into the specific List Digest of interest. > > o Both the HTML and TXT versions of the Digests can be found here. > > o The List Message Trailer will contain a Link directly to the given > > o Right now there's only one Digest shown, but each day there will > be another. They will be sorted with the newest at the top. > Left-hand column is the HTML version, right-hand column the TXT > version. > > A couple people also complained that some messages in the HTML version were > just one long line that went off to the right forever and they hated > that. Come to think of it, this is also an issue in the Search Engine, > List Browser, and Archive Browser. Some email programs don't included hard > Returns at regular intervals and that's what causes this. I wrote a > program tonight that will automatically chop these long lines into 78 > characters or less and wrap the rest of the line. After tonight's Archive > transfer, all of the Searching and Browsing tools shouldn't have the > problem any longer either. Woo hoo! > > So, back to the new Digest format. What people are going to see in the > new, NEW Digest is a bit of verbiage at the top of the email describing the > URL links to the HTML and TXT on-line versions, followed by the Links, > followed by the day's Index, followed by the day's messages just as > before. Lines longer than 78 characters will also be automatically wrapped > onto the next line. > > Hopefully this will be a more pleasing arrangement for everyone. Sorry to > get everybody so stirred up over the format change! > > The List of Contributors is coming out tomorrow night... Still time to > make that Contribution! http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > Best regards, > > Matt Dralle > Email List Admin. > > > > > >