---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/12/02: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:40 AM - Status... (Matt Dralle) 2. 06:22 AM - batteries (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 11:36 AM - Re: batteries (Richard Navratril) 4. 03:05 PM - test (walter evans) 5. 07:52 PM - Landing gear reinforcement straps (Ted Brousseau) 6. 08:12 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Gene Rambo) 7. 09:17 PM - Re: Airfoil (Christian Bobka) 8. 10:15 PM - Piet GN-1 for sale (Gary McNeel, Jr.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:29 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Status... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, As promised, here's an update on this year's List Support Gift shipping status! Wednesday 12/11 all of the CDROM-Only and all but 12 of the CDROM+Flight Bag Gifts were shipped out via US Parcel Post. Maximum delivery will be 8 days to the most remote areas. For those receiving a CDROM+Flight Bag, note that the CDROM is tucked inside one of the pouches in the Flight Bag so don't miss it!! The remaining Flight-Bag+CDROM, Flight Bag-Only and A&P Book Sets will go out as soon as the next shipments arrive, hopefully in the next few days. Once again, I want to thank everyone that made a Contribution to this year's Email List Fund Raiser! The email and web systems are now running on brand new APC 2.2kva UPS systems thanks to the support of List members this year. Additionally, the Email System will be upgraded later this month with a new, Dual Processor 2.8Ghz Linux system due to arrive any day! Your generosity has made these upgrades possible and nothing else! Thank you so much! Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft DNA: do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:16 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: batteries --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Dick Navratil writes- >With this weight I might consider installing a 35 amp battery in the >nose (35 lb.) for a transponder and radio. Do you want to consider some weight savings? Here's a snip from Mark Langford's KR website that relates his investigation on batteries. Much of what Mark was investigating relates to the requirement for cold cranking amps for a starter, so keep that in mind if you don't need starter juice: ==================================== I'm always looking to save weight, and was quite intesrested in the Black Panther batteries in the Wicks catalog. They list one that has 600 CCA (cold cranking amps) that I later discovered is a 16Ah (at 10 hours) battery, for $113. I looked at Gills, Bells, Interstates, etc, and finally came full circle to the actual manufacturer of the Black Panther, which is Hawker Energy Products. The standard aircraft batteries are typically 25 or 35 Ah. The AGM technology used in the Hawker Genesis batteries makes them very reliable and with an amazingly high CCA value for cranking things like large 6 cylinder Corvair engines. They are also permanently sealed (by definition) and can be mounted in any orientation. My KR2S electrical system is going to be very current miserly. My radio and transponder are Terra (less than 2A combined), strobes are Kuntzlemann (less than 2A draw), ignition is coil and points (1A per 1000 rpm, according to William) totaling 3A at cruise, and my nav lights are super bright LEDs (Stefan Belatchev's idea) that draw less than .1A. All of this can be turned off so that only the engine's coil and fuel pump are running, which totals 3.7 amps. My ignition switch will control ignition coil and fuel pump without a breaker inline (if either quits, you're going down anyway), but all other electrical items will be separate and will have breaker/switches. The G12V16EP battery that I chose will run this "minimum load" for 4 hours! And if my Corvair runs anything like the rest of my cars, it'll start in 1 or 2 seconds, mininizing starting drain. My EIS (Engine Information System) has programmable alarms, and the voltage trigger level can be set to something like 13 volts so that if my alternator quits charging, the EIS will immediately notify me and I'll have something like 2 hours to find a landing spot even without bothering to switch off the radio and transponder! For ME, that's a good enough margin. And it is very compact, with a height of only 3 inches, perfect for the upper firewall shelf of a KR. Best of all, it weighs 13.5 pounds, half the weight of a 35Ah Gill! The icing on the cake is that I ordered it for $64 from one of Hawker's suppliers, Battery Specialties, Inc (1-800-854-5759). That's half what Wicks charges. Battery Specialties is the third place I called, and they just happen to have a bunch of these on order, and they'll be getting them in 4 weeks. More typical is a 6 month waiting list! There must be a reason why these things are in such high demand. Yes, I'll do the testing to make sure that my electrical system has a sufficient margin of safety (after all, my wife's going to be flying this thing, along with my kids, someday), and if I need to, I can add another 13Ah battery (11 pounds) for a backup battery. These two batteries COMBINED weigh less than a Gill, and have almost the same reserve current capacity, but far more cranking power. If you're not inclined to live on the edge like me, you could always buy the G12V26EP for $98 and have one FINE 26Ah battery, with 800 CCA and the potential to mount in any orientation. I also discovered the Interstate U1-33AGM, a 33Ah battery that you should be able to get at your local Interstate dealer for about $85. It uses the same AGM technology and is also permanently sealed like the others I've mentioned. =========================== Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:40 AM PST US From: "Richard Navratril" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: batteries --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" Thanks Oscar The load info is very helpful. My concern is not saving weight at this point as much as moving weight forward. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: batteries > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Dick Navratil writes- > >With this weight I might consider installing a 35 amp battery in the > >nose (35 lb.) for a transponder and radio. > > Do you want to consider some weight savings? Here's a snip from Mark > Langford's KR website that relates his investigation on batteries. Much of > what Mark was investigating relates to the requirement for cold cranking > amps for a starter, so keep that in mind if you don't need starter juice: > ==================================== > I'm always looking to save weight, and was quite intesrested in the Black > Panther batteries in the Wicks catalog. They list one that has 600 CCA (cold > cranking amps) that I later discovered is a 16Ah (at 10 hours) battery, for > $113. I looked at Gills, Bells, Interstates, etc, and finally came full > circle to the actual manufacturer of the Black Panther, which is Hawker > Energy Products. The standard aircraft batteries are typically 25 or 35 Ah. > The AGM technology used in the Hawker Genesis batteries makes them very > reliable and with an amazingly high CCA value for cranking things like large > 6 cylinder Corvair engines. They are also permanently sealed (by definition) > and can be mounted in any orientation. > > My KR2S electrical system is going to be very current miserly. My radio and > transponder are Terra (less than 2A combined), strobes are Kuntzlemann (less > than 2A draw), ignition is coil and points (1A per 1000 rpm, according to > William) totaling 3A at cruise, and my nav lights are super bright LEDs > (Stefan Belatchev's idea) that draw less than .1A. All of this can be turned > off so that only the engine's coil and fuel pump are running, which totals > 3.7 amps. My ignition switch will control ignition coil and fuel pump > without a breaker inline (if either quits, you're going down anyway), but > all other electrical items will be separate and will have breaker/switches. > The G12V16EP battery that I chose will run this "minimum load" for 4 hours! > And if my Corvair runs anything like the rest of my cars, it'll start in 1 > or 2 seconds, mininizing starting drain. > > My EIS (Engine Information System) has programmable alarms, and the voltage > trigger level can be set to something like 13 volts so that if my alternator > quits charging, the EIS will immediately notify me and I'll have something > like 2 hours to find a landing spot even without bothering to switch off the > radio and transponder! For ME, that's a good enough margin. And it is very > compact, with a height of only 3 inches, perfect for the upper firewall > shelf of a KR. Best of all, it weighs 13.5 pounds, half the weight of a 35Ah > Gill! The icing on the cake is that I ordered it for $64 from one of > Hawker's suppliers, Battery Specialties, Inc (1-800-854-5759). That's half > what Wicks charges. Battery Specialties is the third place I called, and > they just happen to have a bunch of these on order, and they'll be getting > them in 4 weeks. More typical is a 6 month waiting list! There must be a > reason why these things are in such high demand. > > Yes, I'll do the testing to make sure that my electrical system has a > sufficient margin of safety (after all, my wife's going to be flying this > thing, along with my kids, someday), and if I need to, I can add another > 13Ah battery (11 pounds) for a backup battery. These two batteries COMBINED > weigh less than a Gill, and have almost the same reserve current capacity, > but far more cranking power. If you're not inclined to live on the edge like > me, you could always buy the G12V26EP for $98 and have one FINE 26Ah > battery, with 800 CCA and the potential to mount in any orientation. I also > discovered the Interstate U1-33AGM, a 33Ah battery that you should be able > to get at your local Interstate dealer for about $85. It uses the same AGM > technology and is also permanently sealed like the others I've mentioned. > =========================== > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:35 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: test --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:28 PM PST US From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" Gene, Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the fuselage between the landing gear attach points? Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across the > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This only > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear. You > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the > plans. > > Gene Rambo ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:10 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank Pavliga-style fittings. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Brousseau Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > Gene, > > Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or > others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the > fuselage between the landing gear attach points? > > Ted > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Rambo" > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" > > > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across > the > > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This > only > > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear. > You > > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the > > plans. > > > > Gene Rambo > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:09 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" THANK YOU KEVIN!!!! Your website has the only known picture of my friends Monocoupe 90 in its original Stanavo paint scheme. I have been looking for a picture of this NC11753 for the last twelve years. Restoration has been on hold for a while now until a picture turned up AND YOU HAVE IT!! Astronaut Buzz Aldrin's old man was a corporate pilot for Stanavo and undoubtedly flew this ship. Might you have the original photo or know the source of this or others? Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Holcomb Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kevin Holcomb" The Pietenpol airfoil as several others mentioned is something that Pietenpol came up with himself. I was curious how it compared to other airfoils so I worked up a set of coordinates based on the published plans (and smoothed, as shown in the plans leaves a bit to be desired mathematically as measurements closer than 1/32 for plans are not very practical.) I then fed the coordinates to XFOIL, a rather nice CFD airfoil analysis program with a neat viscous flow solver. Also, I had to guess a bit at what the shape was at the leading edge as the plans are not very detailed in that region. The data and coordinates are on the Air Camper page within my personal web page which can be found at: http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ It is a high lift/high drag airfoil as one would expect from a low and slow flier. Kevin Holcomb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Chris > > Does anyone know what Airfoil the Air camper uses and have the data for > it? > > -- > Chris Woodhouse > 3147 SW 127th St. > Oklahoma City, OK 73170 > 405-691-5206 (home) > chrisw@programmer.net > N35 20.492' > W97 34.342' > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:31 PM PST US From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet GN-1 for sale --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr." http://www.geocities.com/nuttydan_1013 Regards, Gary P. McNeel, Jr. MyKitPlane.com EAA Chapter 12, Houston gmcneel@mykitplane.com gmcneel@simdesk.com http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=43 http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID=68 "What's the hurry? Are you afraid I won't come back?" Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron,' last recorded words, in reply to a request for an autograph as he was climbing into the cockpit of his plane.