Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:15 AM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (morrisons5)
2. 12:12 PM - Corvair College P.S. (Oscar Zuniga)
3. 01:44 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Graham Hansen)
4. 02:50 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Hubbard, Eugene)
5. 03:26 PM - Pietenpol Propeller (Tim Williams)
6. 03:33 PM - Re: Pietenpol Propeller (Jack Phillips)
7. 03:54 PM - Re: Pietenpol Propeller (Christian Bobka)
8. 03:56 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (walter evans)
9. 03:59 PM - Re: Pietenpol Propeller (Christian Bobka)
10. 04:03 PM - Re: Pietenpol Propeller (walter evans)
11. 06:32 PM - engine choices (Janis Nielsen)
12. 06:50 PM - Re: engine choices (Christian Bobka)
13. 07:27 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Ted Brousseau)
14. 07:30 PM - wow. notice the FAA said it was OK (Christian Bobka)
15. 08:08 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (John McNarry)
16. 08:10 PM - Re: engine choices (Kip & Beth Gardner)
17. 08:11 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Graham Hansen)
18. 08:48 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Christian Bobka)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "morrisons5" <morrisons5@adelphia.net>
Ted,
I think that the cross straps may serve another function, other than
reinforcing the landing gear. I think that they connect the left and right
lift struts. The lift struts want to pull away from the fuselage as the
wings lift the weight of the airplane. Without the cross strap, you are
relying on a bracket bolted wood to take up this force, without the bolts
pulling out through the edges of the wood. Granted, the wood is a 1" piece
of Ash, but steel does much better in tensile strength.
Malcolm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau"
<nfn00979@naples.net>
>
> Gene,
>
> Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you or
> others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the
> fuselage between the landing gear attach points?
>
> Ted
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
> >
> > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces across
> the
> > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This
> only
> > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing gear.
> You
> > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the
> > plans.
> >
> > Gene Rambo
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Corvair College P.S. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Oops; I forgot to mention one request that William has made regarding the
Corvair College coming up on Jan. 18. He asks that if you are going to
build an engine at the College, that you have purchased one of his
conversion manuals (or purchase one at the time of the College; he will be
bringing some to sell). This is only fair, since you wouldn't expect him to
give away the conversion info at the College to folks who haven't shared in
the investment he made to develop the techniques. Not only that, but the
labor and knowledge saved by having William's expertise on-site will easily
repay you the cost of a manual. (And no, there won't be anybody at the door
checking to see if you have your manual).
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Ted,
As designed, the Pietenpol had a one-piece wing which made
the use of steel reinforcing straps between the lift strut/landing
gear fittings optional.
With a three piece wing, the lift loads through the struts will be
higher than with the one-piece setup, and using these straps
is advisable. The ash crosspiece between the fittings is good
for resisting compression, but not too reliable for tensile loads
because the attaching bolts concentrate them in the wood.
For this reason, I chose to include the straps on my Pietenpol
between both front and rear strut fittings. In addition, I welded
(edges only) the fittings to the tie straps (my term) so that the
the whole assembly could be bolted to the fuselage as a unit.
This is one area where I decided to not try to save weight, wish-
ing to ensure reliability and durability. In any case, I doubt I ad-
ded more than a couple of pounds and the setup has proven
itself during literally thousands of takeoffs and landings from
rough fields.
Cheers,
Graham
Message 4
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| Subject: | Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com>
The one-piece wing isn't stiff enough to change the tension on the bottom of
the fuselage. Besides, if you work out the stresses, it appears that the
only force the center section is seeing is compression.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Hansen [mailto:grhans@cable-lynx.net]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen"
<grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Ted,
As designed, the Pietenpol had a one-piece wing which made
the use of steel reinforcing straps between the lift strut/landing
gear fittings optional.
With a three piece wing, the lift loads through the struts will be
higher than with the one-piece setup, and using these straps
is advisable. The ash crosspiece between the fittings is good
for resisting compression, but not too reliable for tensile loads
because the attaching bolts concentrate them in the wood.
For this reason, I chose to include the straps on my Pietenpol
between both front and rear strut fittings. In addition, I welded
(edges only) the fittings to the tie straps (my term) so that the
the whole assembly could be bolted to the fuselage as a unit.
This is one area where I decided to not try to save weight, wish-
ing to ensure reliability and durability. In any case, I doubt I ad-
ded more than a couple of pounds and the setup has proven
itself during literally thousands of takeoffs and landings from
rough fields.
Cheers,
Graham
Message 5
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| Subject: | Pietenpol Propeller |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tim Williams" <williams@acun.com>
I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine and
a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I contacted
Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone out there
had any experience with this combination.
Thanks,
Tim
Sarasota FL.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Pietenpol Propeller |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net>
Tim,
Before changing from a metal prop to a wooden one, be sure that the change
won't mess up your weight and balance. Piets are notoriously tail heavy. A
wooden prop might weigh as much as 20 lbs less than a metal one. Just be
sure this isn't going to put you into a tail heavy condition.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Williams
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tim Williams" <williams@acun.com>
I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine
and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I
contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone
out there had any experience with this combination.
Thanks,
Tim
Sarasota FL.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Pietenpol Propeller |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
Most metal props for the small continentals are about 22 lbs and most wood
props are around 11 lbs.
Don't forget that you will need new bolts and the 3991 squash plate....
chris bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips"
<jackphillips@earthlink.net>
Tim,
Before changing from a metal prop to a wooden one, be sure that the change
won't mess up your weight and balance. Piets are notoriously tail heavy. A
wooden prop might weigh as much as 20 lbs less than a metal one. Just be
sure this isn't going to put you into a tail heavy condition.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Williams
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tim Williams" <williams@acun.com>
I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine
and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I
contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone
out there had any experience with this combination.
Thanks,
Tim
Sarasota FL.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
I put them on mine. My mentor just seemed to point to it on the plans,
early on ,and said "make sure you put those on".
Didn't seem that hard to do. after the gear was on , and the fuse was
upside down anyway, just lay the straps accross and mark out the holes. ( I
didn't have straps long enough so I welded two shorter pieces together, so I
have a "lump" in the center.) You'll have to grind out strange shapes on
both ends of the front straps due to the tabs that are put on for the bungee
tubes. But when you're done you'll have a continous steel structure down
one wing strut, accross the bottom, and up the other wing strut. (Comforting
when you're doing steep turns at 3000 ft. and your cheeks are pulling down
to your neck.)
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
>
> I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't
> have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it
> was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put
it
> in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice
> for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the
spreader
> bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank
> Pavliga-style fittings.
>
>
> Gene
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ted Brousseau <nfn00979@naples.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau"
> <nfn00979@naples.net>
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > Thanks. I have the ash cross pieces. But, I am wondering whether you
or
> > others are putting the "optional" 2" wide steel cross member under the
> > fuselage between the landing gear attach points?
> >
> > Ted
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane attach points
> >
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
> > >
> > > Also, keep in mind that the F&G plans do not have the ash pieces
across
> > the
> > > floorboard between the gear attach points, but only a 1x1 piece. This
> > only
> > > matters if you are building the spreader-bar "Jenny" type landing
gear.
> > You
> > > have to use onlt the 1x1 if you are going to build the fittings to the
> > > plans.
> > >
> > > Gene Rambo
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Pietenpol Propeller |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
I was curious about the GK in the prop designator. I am used to seeing a CK
for the small Continentals so I looked to find out the difference. It
appears that the CK props are for the 65 and lower hp engines and the GK is
for the 75 to 100 hp engines.
That means, Tim, that a prop with a CK in the designator will NOT do the job
even though it will fit the crank's flange.
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tim
Williams
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tim Williams" <williams@acun.com>
I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine
and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I
contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone
out there had any experience with this combination.
Thanks,
Tim
Sarasota FL.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Propeller |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
Tim,
Don't know that combo.....But can tell you how good a wood prop looks on a
Piet. I got a Sensenich prop from my AP at a fair price and on the A-65 it
looks great.
Let me know and I'll send you a great pic of my DAR and me with my Sensenich
prop.
walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Williams" <williams@acun.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Propeller
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tim Williams" <williams@acun.com>
>
> I recently purchased a very nice Pietenpol with a Continental 0-200 engine
and a metal prop. I definitely like the looks of a wood prop. much better. I
contacted Sensenich and they suggested their W72GK-46 propeller. Has anyone
out there had any experience with this combination.
> Thanks,
> Tim
> Sarasota FL.
>
>
Message 11
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Janis Nielsen <nielsen5052@yahoo.com>
I'm new on the discussion group. I just got my plans
yesterday. I am debating what engine to plan for. I
see a lot of you are using the corvair, while some are
using continentals. I've seen a few corvairs on the
net and on eBay ranging anywhere from $70 to $1500.
What should one expect to pay? Also about how much
does it cost to convert (approximately) especially if
you have to hire someone to do it? How about Lycoming
experience in the Pietenpol? If that is a good choice,
does anyone have any drawings for a lycoming engine
mount? I may be jumping the gun, but like I told my
wife, I need an engine to build an airplane around.
Bruce Nielsen
Spanish Fork, UT
Message 12
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
Bruce,
The design does best with a slow turning engine, lots of torque and a big
propeller. If it is the Lycoming O-145 you mean, the continental A-65 will
do better.
Chris Bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Janis
Nielsen
Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine choices
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Janis Nielsen <nielsen5052@yahoo.com>
I'm new on the discussion group. I just got my plans
yesterday. I am debating what engine to plan for. I
see a lot of you are using the corvair, while some are
using continentals. I've seen a few corvairs on the
net and on eBay ranging anywhere from $70 to $1500.
What should one expect to pay? Also about how much
does it cost to convert (approximately) especially if
you have to hire someone to do it? How about Lycoming
experience in the Pietenpol? If that is a good choice,
does anyone have any drawings for a lycoming engine
mount? I may be jumping the gun, but like I told my
wife, I need an engine to build an airplane around.
Bruce Nielsen
Spanish Fork, UT
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net>
Thanks Malcolm, Walt and Graham. I kept thinking about the forces from the
landing gear. Never considered the lift struts. They are probably the most
important part on the plane. So, I will definitely be using the strap. The
members of this list are the greatest people on earth.
Happy holidays.
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "morrisons5" <morrisons5@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "morrisons5"
<morrisons5@adelphia.net>
>
> Ted,
>
> I think that the cross straps may serve another function, other than
> reinforcing the landing gear. I think that they connect the left and
right
> lift struts. The lift struts want to pull away from the fuselage as the
> wings lift the weight of the airplane. Without the cross strap, you are
> relying on a bracket bolted wood to take up this force, without the bolts
> pulling out through the edges of the wood. Granted, the wood is a 1"
piece
> of Ash, but steel does much better in tensile strength.
>
> Malcolm
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | wow. notice the FAA said it was OK |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
"Contributing to the accident were (1) Alaska Airlines'
extended lubrication interval, and the FAA's approval of that
extension, which increased the likelihood that an unperformed
or inadequate lubrication would result in excessive wear of the
acme nut threads; and (2) Alaska Airlines' extended end play
check interval, and the FAA's approval of that extension,
which allowed the excessive wear of the acme nut threads to
progress to failure without the opportunity for detection."
Message 15
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| Subject: | Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
one more question: The spreader bar gear as viewed from the front in the F/G
Page 7
shows the landing gear cross bracing cables in line with the lift struts. Is
it right that
this would carry the lift strut tension loads through to the spreader bar
and the in compression
across to the opposite side? Seems like the spreader bar gear would add
strength and the fuse bottom
would not be subjected to as great a load.
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't
have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it
was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it
in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice
for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader
bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank
Pavliga-style fittings.
Gene
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: engine choices |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
At 9:32 PM -0500 12/13/02, Janis Nielsen wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Janis Nielsen <nielsen5052@yahoo.com>
>
>I'm new on the discussion group. I just got my plans
>yesterday. I am debating what engine to plan for. I
>see a lot of you are using the corvair, while some are
>using continentals. I've seen a few corvairs on the
>net and on eBay ranging anywhere from $70 to $1500.
>What should one expect to pay? Also about how much
>does it cost to convert (approximately) especially if
>you have to hire someone to do it? How about Lycoming
>experience in the Pietenpol? If that is a good choice,
>does anyone have any drawings for a lycoming engine
>mount? I may be jumping the gun, but like I told my
>wife, I need an engine to build an airplane around.
>
>Bruce Nielsen
>Spanish Fork, UT
Hi Bruce,
I wouldn't pay more than $150 for a useable Corvair engine & probably less
than that. As I've told many others on this list, the best way to find one
is to contact your closest CORSA Chapter & ask them to put you in touch
with one of their members who has several engines lying around (there
always is someone). I lucked out & was given an engine, but I was prepared
to pay up to $150.
You don't need an engine in runnning condition, just one that you can turn
over by hand & is complete.
If you are serious about the Corvair, buy Wm. Wynne's conversion manual
before you go looking for your engine - you'll save yourself a lot of grief.
I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary
tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims
you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul.
Welcome to the list - have fun building!
Kip Gardner
426 Schneider St. SE
North Canton, OH 44720
(330) 494-1775
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
Gene,
I never did calculate the loads in comparing the one-piece to the
three piece wing. But I suspected (incorrectly it seems) that the
one- piece wing would have enough stiffness to reduce the ten-
sile loads across the lower fuselage somewhat. With the hinged
outer panels of my three-piece wing I thought there would be zero
stiffness and made sure I installed the straps.
From your conclusions, it seems that EVERY PIETENPOL with a
wooden fuselage should have these reinforcement straps, regard-
less. Thanks for the information!
Cheers,
Graham
Message 18
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| Subject: | Landing gear reinforcement straps |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
I see your point John but the spreader bars would be kind of weak in
compression due to their small cross section...Euler's formula...20:1 length
to diameter ratio exceeded, etc...
when the gear is under normal landing loads, the spreader is in tension and
that is the type load it was designed for.
With a one piece wing, lift loads, due to the center portion of the wing
area, in the cabane struts is minimal in tension. With a two piece wing,
due to its hinge like pin(s), the tension loads in the cabane go up due to
lift loads. Yet if the wing tips are trying to fold up, with either a one
or multiple piece wing, the fuselage box and the cabane struts are trying to
hold the strut attach point on the fuselage a fixed distance from the wing
making this load a compression load. As a result, the multiple piece wing
could get by with less material becuase the loads would counter each other
and cancel one or the other out completely.
Either way, there is a definite tensile load on the fuselage between the
lift strut attach points. I would think it a good idea to take a liitle of
the wood away and let some steel carry the load. It would not have to be
much. A rough calculation that can be refined by our expert engineers:
Figure 1100 lb gross wieght at 6 gs including the safety factor split evenly
more or less into one forward and one aft is 3300lb tensile load per strap.
4130 is at 90000 psi tensile strength so you need about .04 square inches of
material. So a .090" thick by .5 " wide would give you .045 square inches.
You could embed it in epoxy in the crosspiece/plywood floor between the wing
strut attach fittings and nobody would ever no it was there....but you.
chris bobka
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
McNarry
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
one more question: The spreader bar gear as viewed from the front in the F/G
Page 7
shows the landing gear cross bracing cables in line with the lift struts. Is
it right that
this would carry the lift strut tension loads through to the spreader bar
and the in compression
across to the opposite side? Seems like the spreader bar gear would add
strength and the fuse bottom
would not be subjected to as great a load.
John Mc
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene
Rambo
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't
have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it
was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it
in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice
for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader
bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank
Pavliga-style fittings.
Gene
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