---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/14/02: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:01 AM - Re: engine choices (The Huizenga's) 2. 07:08 AM - Re: engine choices (The Huizenga's) 3. 07:10 AM - Alaska Airlines/Jack screw (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 4. 07:33 AM - Raised instrument panel? (Ted Brousseau) 5. 07:56 AM - Re: engine choices (Carl Loar) 6. 09:14 AM - Re: Raised instrument panel? (Michael D Cuy) 7. 01:17 PM - Re: engine choices (Kip & Beth Gardner) 8. 04:16 PM - Re: Raised instrument panel? (Ted Brousseau) 9. 05:37 PM - Re: Airfoil (Kevin Holcomb) 10. 10:39 PM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (John McNarry) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:48 AM PST US From: "The Huizenga's" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "The Huizenga's" Bruce, Welcome to the list. You can, with a little effort, probably find a suitable engine from free to the $200 range. You won't want a $1500 rebuilt engine because you will certainly tear it apart anyway and make changes to it. Rebuild cost will be around $1200 and lots of fun. I would suggest you get on the Corvaircraft (mailto:corvaircraft-subscribe@mailinglists.org ) list also - lots of people with lots of experience and lots of ideas. Also you will want William Wynne's conversion manual - check out www.flycorvair.com. The corvaircraft archives are at: http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/index.jsp and a don't miss site is http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIRCRAFT/index.html Hope this helps Kirk St Paul -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:41 AM PST US From: "The Huizenga's" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "The Huizenga's" > >I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary >tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims >you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. > 2-3k is pretty high I think. That would be replacing everything and definitely adding a starter. Thinking about it, I'd say the $1200 I said earlier might be a little low, but not too much if you do most of the work yourself. If you start farming out a lot of work and add things like roller rockers the price will jump substantially. My guess with the 2-3K is also including the intake and exhaust set-up and engine mount. Of course, maybe I just don't look at my receipts often enough out of fear. Kirk -- Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:28 AM PST US From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Airlines/Jack screw --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) ".....the FAA approved it." We can all bet this will make the FAA even more skiddish when it comes to future approvals. I've heard the FAA wants to eliminate all 337's. (I'll bet the reason is fear of law suits) This has all of the Alaskan pilots in an uproar. 337's are the main way those guys remake their airplanes to fit their needs. This fear will hit certified airplanes especially hard, but will probably slop over onto experimentals as well. Leon S. Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:25 AM PST US From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Raised instrument panel? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" Mike Cuy, I thought I remembered you saying you made your instrument panel and front cowling supports taller than the 9" called for in the plans. I have read all your emails I have saved and can't find it. My question is how much taller did you (or anyone else) make it? Would you make it the same again? Thanks, Ted Brousseau Naples, FL Band saw running and 1/8" plywood in hand ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:45 AM PST US From: "Carl Loar" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" The beauty of this aircraft is you have a wide variety of choices on it. Originally, I was going to go with the Model A engine, but after checking out the corvair, I had to go that route. I was on a tight budget thru the whole project, and the corvair gives cheap and power. Just the engine gives you many options. It can be built to be a rocket or just a good powerplant that will get you in the sky. I found the corvair to be very enjoyable to work on. ( the rod bolts are another story) Parts are reasonable and obtainable thru places like Clark's and Corvair Underground. JC Whitney's is a good source also. And whatever way you plan to go, the knowledge here on this list is invaluable. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Huizenga's" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "The Huizenga's" > > > > >I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary > >tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims > >you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. > > > > 2-3k is pretty high I think. That would be replacing everything and > definitely adding a starter. Thinking about it, I'd say the $1200 I > said earlier might be a little low, but not too much if you do most > of the work yourself. If you start farming out a lot of work and add > things like roller rockers the price will jump substantially. My > guess with the 2-3K is also including the intake and exhaust set-up > and engine mount. > > Of course, maybe I just don't look at my receipts often enough out of fear. > Kirk > -- > Kirk Huizenga and Bryan Eastep's Aircamper and Corvair Project > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList.cfm?Menu=PhotoGallery > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:19 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Raised instrument panel? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Ted---I raised the height of both instrument panels by one inch plus the turtle deck height by one inch to give 1) more space for instruments 2) raises the windshields for more wind protection, and 3) I like the more rounded look of the turtledeck. To me the original dimensions make the deck look a bit too flat. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:27 PM PST US From: Kip & Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner At 10:07 AM -0500 12/14/02, The Huizenga's wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "The Huizenga's" > > >> >>I have not started work on mine yet, except for a little preliminary >>tinkering, so I can't tell you what it's really going to cost. Wm. claims >>you can do it for 2-3K to do a complete conversion/overhaul. >> > >2-3k is pretty high I think. That would be replacing everything and >definitely adding a starter. Thinking about it, I'd say the $1200 I >said earlier might be a little low, but not too much if you do most >of the work yourself. If you start farming out a lot of work and add >things like roller rockers the price will jump substantially. My >guess with the 2-3K is also including the intake and exhaust set-up >and engine mount. > >Of course, maybe I just don't look at my receipts often enough out of fear. >Kirk Hi Kirk, As I said, that wasn't an authoritative answer, but I think Wm. does mean 2-3k for the entire installation. I think he bassically says that you can easily do a good job for 2k & for 3k you can get a lot of bells & whistles on the engine. I also think he has said that it would be difficult/foolish to spend 4k on it, unless you just had a hankering to burn up money! I also think the lowest figure he mentions on his web site is someone who was flying for $1500, engine & installation, but he refered to him as a great scrounger. Any way you look at it, it's still a great deal compared to the cost of a comparably-overhauled A-65 or C-85/90. Cheers! Kip Gardner 426 Schneider St. SE North Canton, OH 44720 (330) 494-1775 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:01 PM PST US From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Raised instrument panel? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" Thanks Mike. I thought it was you who raised it. The band saw is now cutting.... Happy holidays Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Raised instrument panel? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > Ted---I raised the height of both instrument panels by one inch plus the > turtle deck height by one inch to give > 1) more space for instruments 2) raises the windshields for more wind > protection, and 3) I like the more rounded look of > the turtledeck. To me the original dimensions make the deck look a bit > too flat. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:19 PM PST US From: "Kevin Holcomb" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kevin Holcomb" Thanks a lot. I know where I found most of my photos however the ones that are labeled "unknown" are just that. I wish I had kept better records long ago when I started my collection. I give photo credit whenever I know how to credit it. By the way, I am still looking for photos and information on early Pietenpol's (pre ww2 only). Any tips on where to look would be appreciated. Don't bother mention the EAA library, 1. their fee structure is extreamly steep (I dont mind paying reasonable research/reproduction fees but there is clearly far beyond 'cost'), 2. Even if I could spend the money for a photo or two they do not want their photos used on the internet (and when used in books they want royalties). I mistakingly wrote them for assistance thinking that they might be interested in the documentation/distribution of the history of early "homebuilt airplanes." I find it notable when an orgainization with 'education' in their stated goals treats their collections as 'assets' rather than libraries. Kevin Holcomb http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > THANK YOU KEVIN!!!! > > Your website has the only known picture of my friends Monocoupe 90 in its > original Stanavo paint scheme. I have been looking for a picture of this > NC11753 for the last twelve years. Restoration has been on hold for a while > now until a picture turned up AND YOU HAVE IT!! > > Astronaut Buzz Aldrin's old man was a corporate pilot for Stanavo and > undoubtedly flew this ship. > > Might you have the original photo or know the source of this or others? > > Chris Bobka > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin > Holcomb > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kevin Holcomb" > > > The Pietenpol airfoil as several others mentioned is something that > Pietenpol came up with himself. I was curious how it compared to other > airfoils so I worked up a set of coordinates based on the published plans > (and smoothed, as shown in the plans leaves a bit to be desired > mathematically as measurements closer than 1/32 for plans are not very > practical.) I then fed the coordinates to XFOIL, a rather nice CFD airfoil > analysis program with a neat viscous flow solver. Also, I had to guess a > bit at what the shape was at the leading edge as the plans are not very > detailed in that region. The data and coordinates are on the Air Camper > page within my personal web page which can be found at: > http://www.angelfire.com/va2/aerodrome/ > > It is a high lift/high drag airfoil as one would expect from a low and slow > flier. > > Kevin Holcomb > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris" > To: > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Chris > > > > Does anyone know what Airfoil the Air camper uses and have the data for > > it? > > > > -- > > Chris Woodhouse > > 3147 SW 127th St. > > Oklahoma City, OK 73170 > > 405-691-5206 (home) > > chrisw@programmer.net > > N35 20.492' > > W97 34.342' > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:25 PM PST US From: "John McNarry" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" Thanks for your input Chris. I'm sure I will put the strips in. Peace of mind as well as good engineering. by the way I'm glad "fisherman" didn't chase you away permanently. I value your input to this list. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Christian Bobka Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" I see your point John but the spreader bars would be kind of weak in compression due to their small cross section...Euler's formula...20:1 length to diameter ratio exceeded, etc... when the gear is under normal landing loads, the spreader is in tension and that is the type load it was designed for. With a one piece wing, lift loads, due to the center portion of the wing area, in the cabane struts is minimal in tension. With a two piece wing, due to its hinge like pin(s), the tension loads in the cabane go up due to lift loads. Yet if the wing tips are trying to fold up, with either a one or multiple piece wing, the fuselage box and the cabane struts are trying to hold the strut attach point on the fuselage a fixed distance from the wing making this load a compression load. As a result, the multiple piece wing could get by with less material becuase the loads would counter each other and cancel one or the other out completely. Either way, there is a definite tensile load on the fuselage between the lift strut attach points. I would think it a good idea to take a liitle of the wood away and let some steel carry the load. It would not have to be much. A rough calculation that can be refined by our expert engineers: Figure 1100 lb gross wieght at 6 gs including the safety factor split evenly more or less into one forward and one aft is 3300lb tensile load per strap. 4130 is at 90000 psi tensile strength so you need about .04 square inches of material. So a .090" thick by .5 " wide would give you .045 square inches. You could embed it in epoxy in the crosspiece/plywood floor between the wing strut attach fittings and nobody would ever no it was there....but you. chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John McNarry Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" one more question: The spreader bar gear as viewed from the front in the F/G Page 7 shows the landing gear cross bracing cables in line with the lift struts. Is it right that this would carry the lift strut tension loads through to the spreader bar and the in compression across to the opposite side? Seems like the spreader bar gear would add strength and the fuse bottom would not be subjected to as great a load. John Mc -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" I wasn't aware that the steel reinforcement was that wide (2") but don't have the plans in fromt of me. I wouldn't make it that wide, I thought it was something like 1/2". In fact, I'm not sure whether I am going to put it in at all, given that I too have the ash cross pieces which should suffice for any strength across that area. With this set up, and using the spreader bar type gear, you have to use modified fittings like the Frank Pavliga-style fittings. Gene