---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/16/02: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:35 AM - Re: Landing gear reinforcement straps (Hubbard, Eugene) 2. 02:04 PM - refueling from cans (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 02:22 PM - Re: PIET: Buying wood (walter evans) 4. 03:04 PM - Re: refueling from cans (D.Dale Johnson) 5. 04:42 PM - Re: refueling from cans (John McNarry) 6. 05:11 PM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 12/15/02 (ANNCARLEK@aol.com) 7. 05:27 PM - Re: refueling from cans (Gary Gower) 8. 06:24 PM - Re: refueling from cans (Ken) 9. 06:35 PM - Re: refueling from cans (DJ Vegh) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:18 AM PST US From: "Hubbard, Eugene" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear reinforcement straps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" Chris, I don't see that the one-piece wing can possibly be stiff enough to affect the cabane and lift strut loading ratios. My reasoning is that I have no doubt that I could, with hand pressure, flex the one-piece wing with the cabane struts removed such that the distance between atatch points changes measurably. This is really a crude way of establishing a Young's modulus of maybe a few hundred to a thousand pounds per inch of displacement. Similarly, I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, changing the length of the cabane struts in a similar way. This strongly suggests that any force on the cabane attach points will be taken up by the struts long before the stiffness of the wing itself becomes a factor, and that attach point stresses should be nearly identical between one and three-piece wings. I totally agree with your other comments though, that the bottom of the fuselage is always in tension, and that force on the cabanes, whether tension or compression, is minimal. Gene Hubbard San Diego ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:46 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple of days ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable containers in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While filling the last container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. There was no mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was plastic jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low humidity, and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the risk might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on the concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn center here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is in great hands. This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto gas and portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a non-conductive container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that could ignite fuel vapors. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:00 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PIET: Buying wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Just a tidbit on wood. Seems that one big industry for aircraft grade spruce was to make organ pipes for the old pipe organs of the old churches. remember when I was a teen, my neighbor was a contractor for a large construction firm. and he showed me a pile of wood in his basement that came from an old pipe organ that they had dismantled. Didn't know it at the time, but what I saw could have made many Piets. Wonder where that wood is now??? I guess if kept dry, the spruce should be ok? anybody know? Guess my point is,,,don't be afraid to look around, and ask questions, you never know what might turn up. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PIET: Buying wood > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam > > Barry > you could look at sailboat wood suppliers for spruce. > there is one in madison wi called mccormicks lumber. > but you might have one closer. wood is about $9.00 bd > ft. but it is of aircraft quality, and much lighter > than fir. > Del > > --- Barry Davis wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" > > > > > > We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I > > looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board > > foot. I know there are other options and I need > > help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? > > Are most using Spruce or Fir? > > Thanks > > Barry Davis > > > > > > > > Click on the > > this > > generous > > _-> > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > latest messages. > > List members. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans From: "D.Dale Johnson" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D.Dale Johnson" My two cents I have found that metal gas cans sitting on a plastic truck bed liner can store a big charge. So don't be lazy take that gas can out of the truck and set it on the ground . Dale ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:05 PM PST US From: "John McNarry" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" Here in Canada at least in Manitoba it is illegal to fill a container while it is in a vehicle. Place it on the ground. Touch the can and a metal part of the nozzle with your hand before touching the nozzle to the can. It is also a good idea to touch the vehicle with your hand before picking up the cans. How many times have you seen or felt that charge as you touch the door handle? More importantly clipping the ground lead to the exhaust stack or metal parts of your airframe doesn't bond the tank mounted up there in the wood wing. Some wooden aircraft have bonding or grounding plugs installed near the tank and braided copper ribbons fitted into the non conductive tank. Our PT 19 Cornell (wood wing) has this arrangement. Just out of curiosity I checked continuity between the tank and engine and found it to be in effect an open. Therefore the bonding socket. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of D.Dale Johnson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D.Dale Johnson" My two cents I have found that metal gas cans sitting on a plastic truck bed liner can store a big charge. So don't be lazy take that gas can out of the truck and set it on the ground . Dale ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:32 PM PST US From: ANNCARLEK@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 12/15/02 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ANNCARLEK@aol.com In a message dated 12/15/02 11:57:26 PM, pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com writes: << --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" We are quickly approaching the Buying Wood stage. I looked at Douglas Fir in Atlanta for $7 per board foot. I know there are other options and I need help. Where is wood being bought and for how much? Are most using Spruce or Fir? >> I bought my Fir from the local lumber yard, and I am still pleased with the gereral quality. VG DF is a little less than a buck a foot for 1 x 4s, double that for 1 x 6s. I used a lot of 2 x 6s to cut longerons, etc. I've spent about 400 dollars for wood so far, and my Fuse is done, along with the tail feathers. Flat Grain DF is available for less, and should be ok for most everything. I'm going to make my spars out of FG DF. I used just a few pieces of Poplar and it was easy to use and light in weight. We have a good store near here that sells Basswood - same price as my Fir. If I built another Fuse I would use some Basswood in those non-structural parts. But my Fuse and tail is not heavy(yet!) Carl Lekven, Compton Airport, Los Angeles ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:54 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Oscar, I will like to know what happened and/or how to prevent this from happening. We have used the red plastic containers refuel method for more than 10 years... Never had a problem, but I dont want to take chances. From the gas station hose, to the red plastic containers, to the truck (or car trunk) and drive to the airstrip; then add oil, shake well then pour it to the gas tank of the ultralight or light plane (912's without oil of course). Just like that, no special care, the red container plastic and most of the gas tanks of the ultralights are also plastic (white like the ones used in the Quicksilver Ultralights). Where is the danger point? What special handling procedure is recommended? No fuel pump in the airstrip, so we have to take our oun fuel each week end to be able to fly. We will appreciate any advice, more than 30 ultralights refuel this way every week end in our club... Once I read about it in one list some years ago, but was not shure if it was true... is dificult to believe. But is the second time I read about it. I do not want to take chances, I am the Security Comisioner in my Club, so is important for me. Is a first hand info you got? Thank you (and all) in advance. Saludos Gary Gower --- Oscar Zuniga wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple > of > days ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable > > containers in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While > filling > the last container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. > There was > no mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was > plastic > jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low > humidity, > and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the > risk > might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on > the > concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn > center > here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is in > great > hands. > > This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto > gas and > portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a > non-conductive > container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that could > ignite fuel > vapors. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:08 PM PST US From: "Ken" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken" It is called static electricity. The same thing you get from walking across the carpet. All of the gas stations around here have signs stating that you are to sent the cans on the ground before filling. As an added precaution I put one hand on a metal part of the pump and touch each can I am going to fill. Just remember one in a million isn't much unless you are the one. Ken av8or@citizen.infi.net kring@mountainviewdogs.com kring@irisweb.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Oscar, I will like to know what happened and/or how to prevent this from happening. We have used the red plastic containers refuel method for more than 10 years... Never had a problem, but I dont want to take chances. From the gas station hose, to the red plastic containers, to the truck (or car trunk) and drive to the airstrip; then add oil, shake well then pour it to the gas tank of the ultralight or light plane (912's without oil of course). Just like that, no special care, the red container plastic and most of the gas tanks of the ultralights are also plastic (white like the ones used in the Quicksilver Ultralights). Where is the danger point? What special handling procedure is recommended? No fuel pump in the airstrip, so we have to take our oun fuel each week end to be able to fly. We will appreciate any advice, more than 30 ultralights refuel this way every week end in our club... Once I read about it in one list some years ago, but was not shure if it was true... is dificult to believe. But is the second time I read about it. I do not want to take chances, I am the Security Comisioner in my Club, so is important for me. Is a first hand info you got? Thank you (and all) in advance. Saludos Gary Gower --- Oscar Zuniga wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple > of > days ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable > > containers in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While > filling > the last container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. > There was > no mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was > plastic > jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low > humidity, > and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the > risk > might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on > the > concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn > center > here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is in > great > hands. > > This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto > gas and > portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a > non-conductive > container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that could > ignite fuel > vapors. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: refueling from cans From: DJ Vegh --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: DJ Vegh Just this weekend we had a guy catch fire here in Phoenix while filling a gas can. a string of these going on lately! DJ On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:58:55 -0600, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > Just to add another incident/accident to the knowledge base: a couple of days > ago a man was burned just south of here while filling 7 portable containers > in the back of his truck, on his way to the farm. While filling the last > container a flash ignited the vapors and off she went. There was no > mention of the type of container, but my suspicion is that it was plastic > jugs. We have had some cooler, drier weather with attendant low humidity, > and static electricity is suspected. The article did say that the risk > might have been reduced if the man had placed the containers down on the > concrete before refueling. Fortunately, we have a world-class burn > center here (U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research) so the victim is > in great hands. > > This subject has come up before in connection with the use of auto gas > and portable containers, but some folks don't understand how a non- > conductive container (like plastic) could possibly cause a spark that > could ignite fuel vapors. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > -- DJ Vegh This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit .