---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/27/02: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:35 AM - Re: Blast it questions...... (Christian Bobka) 2. 09:11 AM - Re: struts, headsets, Wright bros, Flitzer plans (Hubbard, Eugene) 3. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: Blast it questions...... (Michael Conkling) 4. 06:28 PM - Re: engine choices (Alex Sloan) 5. 06:38 PM - Re: Re: Blast it questions...... (Richard Navratril) 6. 09:00 PM - Re: Re: Blast it questions...... (clif) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:48 AM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Jim, I am looking at your video and the box. Just need to get to the PO. I bought my sand at Northern but up here where their HQ is. You probably went to the one in Richardson on Arapaho. You need to go to a place called Clemtex, Inc. last known address to me is 4770 Gretna, Dallas TX 75207 214 631 0584. They are at the Motor Street exit south off of I35E near Industrial Blvd./Irving Blvd. Look in your Mapsco. You get #5 sand, remember by five fingers on your hand! They might be reluctant to sell it to you if you say you are sandblasting so if they ask, say it is for the ashtrays in the office building where you work. It is the same stuff. It should be 5 or 6 bucks for 50 lbs and get two bags or so. They have all sorts of other stuff. If you are not derusting and descaling, you might consider glass beads for more money. You will also need to get your "gun" there. As a matter of fact, I might have you be my go between as I can't find a source up here. I might have you pick some up for others on the piet list that need them, prepaid of course. The gun you want is stock number 10107. Gun Ass'y Complete is what it says on my receipt from 4/2/93. Can't make out the manufacturer but looks like CIGWK. Price was 54.50 plus tax. I will send a picture later today of it so you can walk in with the picture. You want to get the right gun. It is expensive because it has a CARBIDE venturi but mine has been in good use for 9 years now and shows no wear. It is imperative you have this gun. No ceramics here. If you use the wrong gun, it just won't work right after an hours use. I will measure the orifice size of my gun and send youthat when I send a photo. You do not want a bigger orifice, same size is ok, but smaller is probably better. Better to retain your pressure and cover a little less ground. As far as the vacuum, you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. It will be so cloudy after a minute that you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If no vacuum then it will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will contract silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the vacuum. Better yet, use an extra lung vacuum hose and put the vacuum outside as even the filter on the vauum won't trap all the fines. You must use a vacuum. I hope you took pictures that we can share with everybody. I would not mind having some to post on the EAA website. chris -----Original Message----- From: jim_markle@mindspring.com [mailto:jim_markle@mindspring.com] Subject: Blast it questions...... You said in one of the Chapter 25 articles that sand was cheap. I think it was in reference to the fact that your vac was sucking too much sand out... 1. What do you mean cheap? I looked at Northern Tools and a gallon of that stuff is $18. Are you using ordinary fine/clean sand found at Home Depot etc? 2. What purpose does the vac actually serve? Is it there just to keep the air clean whle the sand is being recycled in the "close to" airtight chamber? Looks that way to me....maybe some dust is generated in the process? (Maybe if I had ever done this before I would understand these things.....) Thanks! Jim in Plano.......the box is done, the hopper is done...all I need to to is bend the conduit and cut the round and rectangular holes in the box and attach legs......this is a VERY cool project!!! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:24 AM PST US From: "Hubbard, Eugene" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: struts, headsets, Wright bros, Flitzer plans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" Larry, The lift struts will also keep the outer panels of the wing from twisting during flight. Now let's see if we we're really willing to tighten the wires enough to make this true. Assume a gross weight of 1000 lb, lift strut angle of 30 degrees with respect to the wing, all of the force on the forward spar, and 4 g loading. All reasonable numbers for the Piet. If we prestress the cables to keep the struts in compression, the cables need to have TWO TONS of preload EACH. That's 500 lb load to a side, times 4g, divided by sin(30)= 0.5 to get the resultant of the vertical load and the spanwise force that we have to live with. As I remember, the nominal load capacity of a 1/8 inch cable is about 2000 lb, but I don't have my AS&S book here. At any rate, it sure sounds like we'll be depending on some tension strength from the lift struts, at least at the high end of the design load. If we back off and only ask that the struts be in tension during "normal" flight--bank angle < 60 degrees, we're down to "only" 2000 lb preload. Level flight is 1000 lb. My suspicion is that anyone who tightens the wires until they "feel right" isn't going to put anywhere near that much tension on them, and that the struts are going to carry most of the load during all flight phases. Gene Hubbard San Diego -----Original Message----- From: LAWRENCE WILLIAMS [mailto:lnawms@msn.com] Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts, headsets, Wright bros, Flitzer plans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" Just three quick things that I have gleaned from scanning the entries from the past several days: 1. The lift struts on the Piet don't (or shouldn't) do anything during flight other than create drag. It's the crossed wires that carry the load, the struts just keep the wings from moving DOWNWARD during landings or other negative G load activities. 2. Ted B. take a look at the Panther Electronics website if you feel you just absolutely can't fly your Piet without radio communications. 3. Try to get a copy of "History By Contract" to find out how the Wright Bros made sure they were credited as being the "first". 4. I have a set of Flitzer plans (I thought this was a Pietenpol site?) that I would GLADLY part with. There are so many different revisions for so many of the parts that it's absolutely baffling to try to make any sense out of. Mr. Williams would be well served IMHO to take out all the wordiness and minute details of the various evolutions and just print up some simple plans that one could build an airplane from. And no, it's not at all built like a Piet. I would guess the parts count is at least three times as great. HO-HO-HO Larry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:44 AM PST US From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Michael Conkling" You could check out your local "Harbor Freight" store -- I remember seeing boxes of sand there by their blast cabinets -- don't remember the price 'cause I wasn't looking for more sand -- I get mine from the "Sand Dune" exhibit we have at our museum -- it gets changed periodically after it starts to look gray from the Alum. fan blades wearing away!! (it's a sealed box with a fan to provide the "wind" to drift the sand) Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > Jim, > > I am looking at your video and the box. Just need to get to the PO. > > I bought my sand at Northern but up here where their HQ is. You probably > went to the one in Richardson on Arapaho. You need to go to a place called > Clemtex, Inc. last known address to me is 4770 Gretna, Dallas TX 75207 214 > 631 0584. They are at the Motor Street exit south off of I35E near > Industrial Blvd./Irving Blvd. Look in your Mapsco. > > You get #5 sand, remember by five fingers on your hand! They might be > reluctant to sell it to you if you say you are sandblasting so if they ask, > say it is for the ashtrays in the office building where you work. It is the > same stuff. It should be 5 or 6 bucks for 50 lbs and get two bags or so. > They have all sorts of other stuff. If you are not derusting and descaling, > you might consider glass beads for more money. > > You will also need to get your "gun" there. As a matter of fact, I might > have you be my go between as I can't find a source up here. I might have > you pick some up for others on the piet list that need them, prepaid of > course. > > The gun you want is stock number 10107. Gun Ass'y Complete is what it says > on my receipt from 4/2/93. Can't make out the manufacturer but looks like > CIGWK. Price was 54.50 plus tax. I will send a picture later today of it > so you can walk in with the picture. > > You want to get the right gun. It is expensive because it has a CARBIDE > venturi but mine has been in good use for 9 years now and shows no wear. It > is imperative you have this gun. No ceramics here. If you use the wrong > gun, it just won't work right after an hours use. I will measure the > orifice size of my gun and send youthat when I send a photo. You do not > want a bigger orifice, same size is ok, but smaller is probably better. > Better to retain your pressure and cover a little less ground. > > As far as the vacuum, you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. > It will be so cloudy after a minute that you won't be able to see your hand > in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at > 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If no vacuum > then it will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage > and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will contract > silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative > pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the > vacuum. Better yet, use an extra lung vacuum hose and put the vacuum > outside as even the filter on the vauum won't trap all the fines. > > You must use a vacuum. > > I hope you took pictures that we can share with everybody. I would not mind > having some to post on the EAA website. > > chris > -----Original Message----- > From: jim_markle@mindspring.com [mailto:jim_markle@mindspring.com] > To: bobka@charter.net > Subject: Blast it questions...... > > > You said in one of the Chapter 25 articles that sand was cheap. I think it > was in reference to the fact that your vac was sucking too much sand out... > > 1. What do you mean cheap? I looked at Northern Tools and a gallon of that > stuff is $18. Are you using ordinary fine/clean sand found at Home Depot > etc? > > 2. What purpose does the vac actually serve? Is it there just to keep the > air clean whle the sand is being recycled in the "close to" airtight > chamber? Looks that way to me....maybe some dust is generated in the > process? (Maybe if I had ever done this before I would understand these > things.....) > > Thanks! > > Jim in Plano.......the box is done, the hopper is done...all I need to to is > bend the conduit and cut the round and rectangular holes in the box and > attach legs......this is a VERY cool project!!! > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:39 PM PST US From: "Alex Sloan" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alex Sloan" Del, I for one would attend if it were the first of the week of Brodhead. I would not attend it if it coincided with Brodhead. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine choices > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam > > > There is always a 'Corvair College' every Memorial > > Day weekend at William's > > hangar near Daytona Beach - a little far for those > > of you in the western > > half of the country, I know, but it is an option. I > > hope to be there this > > year or next. > > I am hoping to put one together in the wisconsin area > around the time of oshkosh and brodhead get togethers. > would anybody be interested in having at brodhead > during the pietenpol flyin? If the people that host > the brodhead flyin and william are willing. > Del > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:02 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratril" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" You could also try a larger swimming pool dealer. I carry Red Flint Granite sand in my shop.(.45-.55 mm) It is rather aggresive but doesn't dust nearly as much as white silica sands. It really depends on the nozzel you are using. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Michael Conkling" > > You could check out your local "Harbor Freight" store -- I remember seeing > boxes of sand there by their blast cabinets -- don't remember the price > 'cause I wasn't looking for more sand -- I get mine from the "Sand Dune" > exhibit we have at our museum -- it gets changed periodically after it > starts to look gray from the Alum. fan blades wearing away!! (it's a sealed > box with a fan to provide the "wind" to drift the sand) > > Mike C. > Pretty Prairie, KS > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" > To: ; "pietenpol" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > > > > Jim, > > > > I am looking at your video and the box. Just need to get to the PO. > > > > I bought my sand at Northern but up here where their HQ is. You probably > > went to the one in Richardson on Arapaho. You need to go to a place > called > > Clemtex, Inc. last known address to me is 4770 Gretna, Dallas TX 75207 214 > > 631 0584. They are at the Motor Street exit south off of I35E near > > Industrial Blvd./Irving Blvd. Look in your Mapsco. > > > > You get #5 sand, remember by five fingers on your hand! They might be > > reluctant to sell it to you if you say you are sandblasting so if they > ask, > > say it is for the ashtrays in the office building where you work. It is > the > > same stuff. It should be 5 or 6 bucks for 50 lbs and get two bags or so. > > They have all sorts of other stuff. If you are not derusting and > descaling, > > you might consider glass beads for more money. > > > > You will also need to get your "gun" there. As a matter of fact, I might > > have you be my go between as I can't find a source up here. I might have > > you pick some up for others on the piet list that need them, prepaid of > > course. > > > > The gun you want is stock number 10107. Gun Ass'y Complete is what it > says > > on my receipt from 4/2/93. Can't make out the manufacturer but looks like > > CIGWK. Price was 54.50 plus tax. I will send a picture later today of it > > so you can walk in with the picture. > > > > You want to get the right gun. It is expensive because it has a CARBIDE > > venturi but mine has been in good use for 9 years now and shows no wear. > It > > is imperative you have this gun. No ceramics here. If you use the wrong > > gun, it just won't work right after an hours use. I will measure the > > orifice size of my gun and send youthat when I send a photo. You do not > > want a bigger orifice, same size is ok, but smaller is probably better. > > Better to retain your pressure and cover a little less ground. > > > > As far as the vacuum, you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. > > It will be so cloudy after a minute that you won't be able to see your > hand > > in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at > > 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If no > vacuum > > then it will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage > > and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will > contract > > silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative > > pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the > > vacuum. Better yet, use an extra lung vacuum hose and put the vacuum > > outside as even the filter on the vauum won't trap all the fines. > > > > You must use a vacuum. > > > > I hope you took pictures that we can share with everybody. I would not > mind > > having some to post on the EAA website. > > > > chris > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jim_markle@mindspring.com [mailto:jim_markle@mindspring.com] > > To: bobka@charter.net > > Subject: Blast it questions...... > > > > > > You said in one of the Chapter 25 articles that sand was cheap. I think > it > > was in reference to the fact that your vac was sucking too much sand > out... > > > > 1. What do you mean cheap? I looked at Northern Tools and a gallon of > that > > stuff is $18. Are you using ordinary fine/clean sand found at Home Depot > > etc? > > > > 2. What purpose does the vac actually serve? Is it there just to keep the > > air clean whle the sand is being recycled in the "close to" airtight > > chamber? Looks that way to me....maybe some dust is generated in the > > process? (Maybe if I had ever done this before I would understand these > > things.....) > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim in Plano.......the box is done, the hopper is done...all I need to to > is > > bend the conduit and cut the round and rectangular holes in the box and > > attach legs......this is a VERY cool project!!! > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:44 PM PST US From: clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Blast it questions...... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif Does anyone know about " green sand "? I haven't used it but I've been told that there is considerably less danger of lung damage if the dust is inhaled. After all, accidents can and do happen no matter how well you protect yourself. ----- Original Message ----- > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" > > You could also try a larger swimming pool dealer. I carry Red Flint Granite > sand in my shop.(.45-.55 mm) It is rather aggresive but doesn't dust nearly > as much as white silica sands. It really depends on the nozzel you are > using. > Dick======================================================================= > >