---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/30/02: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:41 PM - planning your panel layout (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 12:49 PM - engine primer (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 01:00 PM - Re: engine primer (D. Engelkenjohn) 4. 01:26 PM - Re: engine primer (Dave and Connie) 5. 01:45 PM - Primer (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 6. 01:51 PM - Engine Primer (Barry Davis) 7. 02:02 PM - Re: engine primer (Carl Loar) 8. 02:06 PM - Re: engine primer (Carl Loar) 9. 02:07 PM - Re: engine primer (Alan Swanson) 10. 02:13 PM - Re: Primer (Carl Loar) 11. 02:16 PM - Re: planning your panel layout (Isablcorky@aol.com) 12. 03:21 PM - Pietenpol Model Kits (MAGEEHUM@aol.com) 13. 03:43 PM - Re: Pietenpol Model Kits (mark deacon) 14. 03:43 PM - Re: Pietenpol Model Kits (Gdascomb@aol.com) 15. 03:45 PM - Re: Pietenpol Model Kits (DJ Vegh) 16. 03:45 PM - Re: Pietenpol Model Kits (Christian Bobka) 17. 03:53 PM - Re: Pietenpol Model Kits (Dave and Connie) 18. 04:50 PM - Re: Pietenpol Model Kits (TWINBOOM) 19. 04:59 PM - Re: engine primer (Doyle Combs) 20. 06:39 PM - Re: engine primer (Wayne McIntosh) 21. 08:11 PM - DXF drawings (Larry Groulx) 22. 08:58 PM - Re: engine primer (javier cruz) 23. 09:19 PM - Re: Primer (Gary Gower) 24. 09:28 PM - Re: DXF drawings (ZigoDan@aol.com) 25. 09:33 PM - Re: engine primer (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:45 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: planning your panel layout --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" With as large a panel as the Pietenpol has, and as complicated as the typical Pietenpol panel is, I'm surprised that no one has taken the time to play with the panel planner at http://www.epanelbuilder.com/ . You go down the page to "Click here to start building your panel", then on the next page you pull down the prototype to start building by dragging and dropping things onto the panel. But no one's yet started a Piet panel. Actually, the Loehle 5151 is probably pretty close (22" wide, 12" tall), as are the Skybolt and Pitts. Maybe I'll send them a CAD outline of a typical Piet panel... (or maybe DJ already has one?) Of course I'm joking about the complexity of the typical Piet panel, but most folks do try a little dreaming about how to fit everything they'd like to have on the panel. In our case (Piet), we have the added factor of having to miss those crossed cables behind the panel, but it's still easier to do on paper than in metal or wood... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*. http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:37 PM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my question. Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most expensive things in the panel. Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishere_3mf ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:16 PM PST US From: "D. Engelkenjohn" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D. Engelkenjohn" Oscar Zuniga wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > >Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > >Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? > Have you tried an aircraft salvage yard yet? All aircraft have them in some fashion and I am sure there is not near as much demand for used ones as there are used ones available. Surely they are available for less than that. Dennis the cheapskate, still gasping over that price! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:57 PM PST US From: Dave and Connie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dave and Connie Oscar, Why bother with a primer? I have an A-65 in my Taylorcraft and do not use the primer. When I first got it I tried the primer and agfter fighting with it to get it to lock again gave up on it. I just flip the prop over a few times with the throttle closed and mags off listening to the sounds coming from the carb. Then mags on and flip once. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 At 02:48 PM 12/30/02 -0600, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > >Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > >Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike >the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my >question. > >Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my >Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that >goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most >expensive things in the panel. > >Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:09 PM PST US From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Oscar: I don't know how this will work, but the ultra light folks use a squeeze bulb primer. it has a check valve and is under 10 bucks. For the price, I'm going to order one on my nest AS&S order. If it don't work, I'm not out much. Leon S. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:00 PM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine Primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" I never use mine on the 150's or the 172. just one stroke of the throttle and away she goes. My brushes on the older 150 went out and I didn't have time to change them for a week or so, so I hand propped it. Used the tail tiedown and one wheel chock (drivers side). Pulled the engine over 4 blades with the throttle closed and mixture rich (mag switches OFF) then cracked the throttle 1/4 inch (about 1000 rpm. and flipped it over. always cranks on the first flip. Stand beside or sit and make sure the engine is warmed up enough to run at slow idle. Then, at slow idle, untie the tail. Then I put one foot on the brake and with the other foot kicked out the wheel chock. Looked kinda funny, but at no time was the plane "free" to move. Still flew every day till the brushes came in. Barry ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:05 PM PST US From: "Carl Loar" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" Oscar, I got mine out of a ultralight magazine. It doesn't lock but they work great and they are cheap. I think around 25 to 30 bucks if I remember correctly. I bought the kind for twin carbs. Input from the top of the gasolator to the primer, two tubes out going to each side of my manifold where the vacuum lines were on the corvair. One note for what it's worth. I found I have to prop it about 6 or 7 times before hitting the switch on as the fuel shot in and went to the back of the manifold with the incline of the engine. After a few props, she fires right up which is good as the rebuilt corvairs are kinda tight at first. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike > the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my > question. > > Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my > Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that > goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most > expensive things in the panel. > > Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishe re_3mf > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:02 PM PST US From: "Carl Loar" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" ps Oscar,,, the one I have is panel mounted with a flat knob. I mounted it on my passenger panel. I don't think the bulb type would work well in a piet. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike > the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my > question. > > Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my > Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that > goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most > expensive things in the panel. > > Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishe re_3mf > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:25 PM PST US From: "Alan Swanson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alan Swanson" Oscar, Try Wentworth Aircraft in Minneapolis MN. Seems to me they had them at Oshkosh for about 35 bucks. They are at www.wentworthaircraft.com and the phone is 1-800-4wentworth Al -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my question. Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most expensive things in the panel. (Snip) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:04 PM PST US From: "Carl Loar" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" Leon,,, The bulb type primers are used mostly with carbs that have enricheners on them such as Bing carbs. They are usually inline on the primary fuel line and force the fuel into the bowl and enrichener. You might want to consider a secondary line that primes the manifold. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Stefan" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Primer > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > > Oscar: I don't know how this will work, but the ultra light folks use a > squeeze bulb primer. it has a check valve and is under 10 bucks. For the > price, I'm going to order one on my nest AS&S order. If it don't work, > I'm not out much. Leon S. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:28 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: planning your panel layout --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Oscar, If you are serious about needing a primer why didn't you say so. I've got them coming out the ole yanx, yanx. Tell me what type you want; for flair fitting or ball fitting. Price will be the same as for those items I received from you. Corky, owner of 41CC w/ 19 hours of trouble free flying ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:09 PM PST US From: MAGEEHUM@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: MAGEEHUM@aol.com About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? Bob Humbert Battle Creek, MI N491RH ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:34 PM PST US From: mark deacon Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: mark deacon Check em out at http://www.peck-polymers.com/ under their Peanut scale line. I don't know of any larger kits but there are a lot of plans out there, up to 1/4 scale if I'm not mistaken. Mark Deacon Detroit, Mi --- MAGEEHUM@aol.com wrote: > About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick > and paper, rubber band > powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't > remember who the manufacturer > was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. > Does anyone know if > there is anything like that currently available, and > if so, where? > > Bob Humbert > Battle Creek, MI > N491RH > > > > Click on the > this > generous > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:53 PM PST US From: Gdascomb@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gdascomb@aol.com Tower Hobbies has a 36" wingspan RC model. $49.99. It is for electric power, but you could probably make it rubber powered. George ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits From: DJ Vegh --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: DJ Vegh I believe there is a rubber power kit by Peck-Polymer I also have drawn plans for and built a 1/8 scale RC Piet for speed 400 electric power. you can see it at: http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/06-12-02.htm DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.raptoronline.com On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:19:51 EST, wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: MAGEEHUM@aol.com > > About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber > band powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the > manufacturer was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does > anyone know if there is anything like that currently available, and if > so, where? > > Bob Humbert Battle Creek, MI > N491RH > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:34 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Peck Polymers. They should atill be in business. http://www.peck-polymers.com/ chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of MAGEEHUM@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: MAGEEHUM@aol.com About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? Bob Humbert Battle Creek, MI N491RH ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:59 PM PST US From: Dave and Connie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dave and Connie Peck-Polymers Stock No. PP-1 according to the one that I have here. I bought it at the Geneseo Flying Aces meet. You can probably find one in a really good hobby shop or send a note to Sandy Peck at: Peck-Polymers P.O. Box 710399 Santee, CA 92072-0399 Dave At 06:19 PM 12/30/02 -0500, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: MAGEEHUM@aol.com > >About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band >powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer >was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if >there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? > >Bob Humbert >Battle Creek, MI >N491RH > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:22 PM PST US From: "TWINBOOM" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "TWINBOOM" Bob, If you send me your snail mail. I will send you one. I bought it a while back, and have decided not to put the time in it, but rather build some ribs for the real one. Drop me a private email, and it will be in the mail on Thursday. N/C Doug B. Doug/Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California Inland Slope Rebels, Riverside Ca. http://inlandsloperebels.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Model Kits > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: MAGEEHUM@aol.com > > About 15 years ago at Oshkosh I say some balsa stick and paper, rubber band > powered Pietenpol model kits for sale. I don't remember who the manufacturer > was but the boxes were orange and white as I recall. Does anyone know if > there is anything like that currently available, and if so, where? > > Bob Humbert > Battle Creek, MI > N491RH > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:57 PM PST US From: "Doyle Combs" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Doyle Combs" I just noticed a primer on parts (aviation) and the price was in the $30's. It was surplus that had never been installed. Doyle Combs ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Engelkenjohn" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D. Engelkenjohn" > > > Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > >Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > > >Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? > > > Have you tried an aircraft salvage yard yet? All aircraft have them > in some fashion and I am sure there is not near as much demand for used > ones as there are used ones available. Surely they are available for > less than that. > Dennis the cheapskate, still gasping over that price! > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:14 PM PST US From: "Wayne McIntosh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Wayne McIntosh" Oscar, I asked some A&P's why airplanes have primers instead of chokes. After all every other type of gas engine has a choke except airplanes. The answer was that not having a choke eliminated the parts of the choke falling off and getting sucked into the engine. I have fixed cars for over 30 years and not seen any part of a choke get sucked into an engine, they stake the little brass screws so they will not fall out. I am looking into using a Zenith updraft carb from a 60's Allis Chalmers on my Corvair engine. I have not gotten the carb yet and the biggest venturi they list is 30mm so I am not sure it would be big enough. Most Zenith carbs have adjustable main jets. But if this works out I would be able to eliminate the primer (weight, source of a fuel leak) and be able to start my engine in Indiana in the winter. If it does not work I will need to get the rest of the tractor. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette,IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine primer > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Hello again, low 'n' slow fliers; > > Since this group seems to be pretty "creative" yet still practical (unlike > the Fisherman, who was an unsafe scrounger at any speed), here's my > question. > > Do engine primers *really* have to cost $150? I just looked at one in my > Wicks catalog and was shocked! I realize their importance and the care that > goes into their fabrication, etc. etc., but- that would be one of the most > expensive things in the panel. > > Any ideas on a different source for a primer, or-? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishe re_3mf > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:52 PM PST US From: Larry Groulx Subject: Pietenpol-List: DXF drawings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Groulx Happy New Year Looking for 3 view dxf drawing. Has anyone used 1\4 X 1\4 capstrips on ribs? I'm following the plans as laid out. Christavia builder saw ribs, said overbuilt. Thanks Larry ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:37 PM PST US From: javier cruz Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: javier cruz Hi Oscar Hi friends I was running my engine today, just for check the little Nissan starter, it works very fine, it have in a reduction that turns the Corvair engine fast, it start very fast.. About the primer, my engine doesn't have it, the Marvell carburator works fine, when the engine is cold, before turn the key to start, i move the throtle one time to high rpm's and let it on idle (800 rpm's), and the engine start on the first or second turn, whit the engine warm it doesn't need the extra fuel, the engine start very quikly.. Saludos Javier Cruz ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:36 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower They do work, I have used them in my ultralights and light planes for years (both in 2 and 4 cycle engines), no one has broken yet... The spare I have is 4 years old in the box. Never used, ready for the next project. Is better than the "choke" botton in the Rotax engines... Saludos Gary Gower --- Leon Stefan wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > > Oscar: I don't know how this will work, but the ultra light folks use > a > squeeze bulb primer. it has a check valve and is under 10 bucks. For > the > price, I'm going to order one on my nest AS&S order. If it don't > work, > I'm not out much. Leon S. > > > > _-> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:20 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DXF drawings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com Larry, Yes, the ribs are overbuilt. Early Cub, and Chief ribs were 1/4 x 1/4. In fact the Grega GN1 can be built with either 1/4 x 1/4 or 1/4 x 1/2. But if you use 1/4 x1/4 it will not be 100% Pietenpol. Also realize that Pietenpol cut on the center cut making his ribs slightly less than 1/4 x 1/2. Dan ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:19 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine primer --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower FELICIDADES JAVIER! Saludos Gary Gower Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico Do not Archive. --- javier cruz wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: javier cruz > > Hi Oscar > Hi friends > > I was running my engine today, just for check the > little Nissan starter, it works very fine, it have in > a reduction that turns the Corvair engine fast, it > start very fast.. > About the primer, my engine doesn't have it, the > Marvell carburator works fine, when the engine is > cold, before turn the key to start, i move the throtle > one time to high rpm's and let it on idle (800 rpm's), > and the engine start on the first or second turn, whit > the engine warm it doesn't need the extra fuel, the > engine start very quikly.. > > Saludos > > Javier Cruz > > > > _-> > > > > > >