---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/01/03: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:19 AM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (Ken Anderson) 2. 09:05 AM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (walter evans) 3. 09:53 AM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (John Dilatush) 4. 10:14 AM - Re: questions by a new piet builder (John Dilatush) 5. 10:40 AM - Re: questions by a new piet builder (Les Schubert) 6. 10:49 AM - Re: questions by a new piet builder (Les Schubert) 7. 06:23 PM - Re: questions by a new piet builder (John Dilatush) 8. 06:25 PM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (Ken Anderson) 9. 06:53 PM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (Wizzard187@aol.com) 10. 08:18 PM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (walter evans) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:27 AM PST US From: "Ken Anderson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Anderson" ----- Original Message ----- One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? > > > When I was involved in drag racing years ago that was a problem with the wheels turning in the slicks. One solution was to screw the tire to the rim. Didn't want to put holes in the wheels. Used rubber (contact) cement on the rim and tire bead. Worked fine. Rubber cement has dosen't have great tensel strength but works great in shear. Ken ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:27 AM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Ken, Is this something you can do with the wheels/tires together? Or do you have to do a teardown? Would be nice if one could just drizzle a bead between rubber and rim. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Anderson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Anderson" > > > ----- Original Message ----- One day on landing, I spun the tire on the > tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires > spinning on tubes? or flats? > > > > > > > When I was involved in drag racing years ago that was a problem with the > wheels turning in the slicks. One solution was to screw the tire to the rim. > Didn't want to put holes in the wheels. Used rubber (contact) cement on the > rim and tire bead. Worked fine. Rubber cement has dosen't have great tensel > strength but works great in shear. > > Ken > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:49 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels ++++++++++++++++++++ Walt, I am running 3.50 x 18" wheels at 45 lbs off of a paved runway. Most every time I land, (that is if I make a decent landing) I too hear the "chirp" that you mention. Had no trouble with spinning the tire on the rim. You might consider increasing the tire pressure. John +++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404 (with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes. One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the pavement and heard a chirp. (In my high hour plane of 3.5hours on the tach) Trying to forsee problems before they come. > What pressure are you guys running in the skinny tires?? > thanks > walt > NX140DL > (north N.J.) > PS spring is right around the corner > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:12 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder +++++++++++++++++++++ Les, Dihedral or not, I understand that it really doesn't make a lot of difference in the flight characteristics of a Pietenpol. The reason that some builders put in about 1" of dihedral is only to avoid the "hangdog" appearance of a straight wing where it appears to have anhedral to the observer. Don't worry about having the elevator balanced, it will streamline itself in flight OK and if the plane is properly trimmed there are no fore and aft stick forces to contend with. If you are going to adhere to the Pietenpol plans without having a cowl tank and only having the wing tank then there is no need for trim. Both the fuel and passenger are then close to the CG and become a non-item. Mr. Pietenpol simply moved the whole wing to get the proper CG. If, however, you have a cowl tank, then as the fuel burns off, the CG of the plane will change and a trim mechanism is good to have. Both Mike Cuy and I independently came up with a similar system of springs attached to the jack shaft of the elevator control which can be biased by a lever to give you trim control. John ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things > 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a > good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. I > am sure somebody has tried it. > 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight so > you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in the > plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that hard > to add. > 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more > work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. > I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it would > seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will > educate me. > Les > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:44 AM PST US From: Les Schubert Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert Dan Thanks for the reply. It seems to me that the dihedral would also add a little stability. How much dihedral do you think I would need to avoid "droopy wings". It seems to me that a person could add the counterweight on the elevator bell crank so it shouldn't affect the c of g much. Do you have Mike Guy's email address. I would like to see/hear how he did it. I assume you have a piet project. Do you have 3 piece wings? There seems to be several designs around although the concept does not sound difficult. Kari-Ann's looks good as it seems like the attachment point is below the wing not inside as it seems like the other design is. I am curious as to how/ where people disconnect the control cables though. Any thoughts on this? regards Les At 09:31 PM 31/12/2002 -0500, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > >Les, > >#1. If I were to build the 3 piece wing I would allow for some dihedral, not >for stability but to keep the wing from looking a B-52 sitting on the ramp, >you know droopy wings. > >#2 Balances on this machine are way ahead of it's time, just needless weight. > >#3 A trim tab would be in my opinion a worth while device to have, Mike Cuy >developed a trim system that works good. > >Dan > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:16 AM PST US From: Les Schubert Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert John thanks for the reply. I would be interested in a sketch of your trim design. I don't know if I will need it as I plan to use the wing tank and only build it as a 1 place plane as I am 6' 4" tall and weigh 230# so it seems that with a Ford engine I will be marginally powered anyway. Again this seems to be more of a go up and just fly around plane and not a real cross country type. If you could snail mail me a sketch of the trim design I would appreciate it. It also would seem that a person could add a counterweight to the bell crank for the elevator balance if they wanted it. Les At 11:12 AM 01/01/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Les Schubert" >To: >Subject: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder >+++++++++++++++++++++ >Les, > >Dihedral or not, I understand that it really doesn't make a lot of >difference in the flight characteristics of a Pietenpol. >The reason that some builders put in about 1" of dihedral is only to avoid >the "hangdog" appearance of a straight wing where it appears to have >anhedral to the observer. > >Don't worry about having the elevator balanced, it will streamline itself in >flight OK and if the plane is properly trimmed there are no fore and aft >stick forces to contend with. > >If you are going to adhere to the Pietenpol plans without having a cowl tank >and only having the wing tank then there is no need for trim. Both the fuel >and passenger are then close to the CG and become a non-item. Mr. >Pietenpol simply moved the whole wing to get the proper CG. > >If, however, you have a cowl tank, then as the fuel burns off, the CG of the >plane will change and a trim mechanism is good to have. Both Mike Cuy and I >independently came up with a similar system of springs attached to the jack >shaft of the elevator control which can be biased by a lever to give you >trim control. > >John >++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > > > I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things > > 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a > > good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. >I > > am sure somebody has tried it. > > 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight >so > > you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in >the > > plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that >hard > > to add. > > 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more > > work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. > > I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it >would > > seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will > > educate me. > > Les > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:55 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder +++++++++++++++++++++++ Les, Need to have your mailing address. John +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > John > thanks for the reply. I would be interested in a sketch of your trim design. > I don't know if I will need it as I plan to use the wing tank and only build it > as a 1 place plane as I am 6' 4" tall and weigh 230# so it seems that with a > Ford engine I will be marginally powered anyway. Again this seems to be > more of a go up and just fly around plane and not a real cross country type. > If you could snail mail me a sketch of the trim design I would appreciate it. > It also would seem that a person could add a counterweight to the bell > crank for the elevator balance if they wanted it. > Les > > At 11:12 AM 01/01/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Les Schubert" > >To: > >Subject: Pietenpol-List: questions by a new piet builder > >+++++++++++++++++++++ > >Les, > > > >Dihedral or not, I understand that it really doesn't make a lot of > >difference in the flight characteristics of a Pietenpol. > >The reason that some builders put in about 1" of dihedral is only to avoid > >the "hangdog" appearance of a straight wing where it appears to have > >anhedral to the observer. > > > >Don't worry about having the elevator balanced, it will streamline itself in > >flight OK and if the plane is properly trimmed there are no fore and aft > >stick forces to contend with. > > > >If you are going to adhere to the Pietenpol plans without having a cowl tank > >and only having the wing tank then there is no need for trim. Both the fuel > >and passenger are then close to the CG and become a non-item. Mr. > >Pietenpol simply moved the whole wing to get the proper CG. > > > >If, however, you have a cowl tank, then as the fuel burns off, the CG of the > >plane will change and a trim mechanism is good to have. Both Mike Cuy and I > >independently came up with a similar system of springs attached to the jack > >shaft of the elevator control which can be biased by a lever to give you > >trim control. > > > >John > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > > > > > I am just getting started on my piet and I am wondering about some things > > > 1. I see the piet does not have dihedral on the wing. It would seem like a > > > good idea and with a 3 piece wing it would seem to be easy to accomplish. > >I > > > am sure somebody has tried it. > > > 2. It seems like most other planes have a elevator counterbalance weight > >so > > > you can get a more neutral stick when you are flying. Or maybe it is in > >the > > > plans and i haven't spotted it yet. Again i can't see it as being that > >hard > > > to add. > > > 3. In the same line how about elevator trim. This would take a little more > > > work and maybe with a elevator counterbalance you wouldn't need it. > > > I guess I have read about some of the first flights on the net and it > >would > > > seem like these changes might work well, then again maybe someone will > > > educate me. > > > Les > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:55 PM PST US From: "Ken Anderson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Anderson" You just need to seperate the bead from the rim but do not need to dismount the tire from the rim. Put the rubber cement on both surface when dry inflate tire to seat the bead. Done Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > Ken, > Is this something you can do with the wheels/tires together? Or do you have > to do a teardown? Would be nice if one could just drizzle a bead between > rubber and rim. > walt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Anderson" > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Anderson" > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- One day on landing, I spun the tire on the > > tube and got a flat cause it tore the stem. > > > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires > > spinning on tubes? or flats? > > > > > > > > > > > When I was involved in drag racing years ago that was a problem with the > > wheels turning in the slicks. One solution was to screw the tire to the > rim. > > Didn't want to put holes in the wheels. Used rubber (contact) cement on > the > > rim and tire bead. Worked fine. Rubber cement has dosen't have great > tensel > > strength but works great in shear. > > > > Ken > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:24 PM PST US From: Wizzard187@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Wizzard187@aol.com Walt Evans, In one of your message some time ago you mentioned that you moved you wing back 3 inches to get the weight and balance right. I just ran a quick wt and bal and have the same problem. If you can remember, at what percent of the wing cord did you end up with and how does it fly? In Iowa with no snow Ken Conrad ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:40 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Ken, Was just snoozing on the couch, and a little groggy. But here goes,,,my weight and bal came out about 2 3/4" too far aft. Moved the wing back, and just got it in. got thru DAR inspection and now flying with about 3.5 hours on it. I had moved the engine mount about 1 3/4" fwd with an A-65, and I weigh 210/220#,,,,,,,,,With almost full nose tank, flies hands off/ a little fwd stick with half nose tank. remind me tomorrow and I'll send you the final results in EXCEL on what the #'s were. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: question for the guys with skinny wheels > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Wizzard187@aol.com > > Walt Evans, In one of your message some time ago you mentioned that you > moved you wing back 3 inches to get the weight and balance right. I just > ran a quick wt and bal and have the same problem. If you can remember, > at what percent of the wing cord did you end up with and how does it fly? > In Iowa with no snow Ken Conrad > >