Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:49 AM - Re: mocycle tire pressure (Michael D Cuy)
2. 06:58 AM - Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (Robert Haines)
3. 07:14 AM - Alamo City Corvair College (Oscar Zuniga)
4. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: question for the guys with skinny wheels (Gadd, Skip)
5. 09:11 AM - Fw: [CorvAIRCRAFT] Alamo City Corvair College (del magsam)
6. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: question for the guys with skinny (Les Schubert)
7. 09:53 AM - Re: Wood landing gear (Mpj01@aol.com)
8. 10:57 AM - Pietenpol engineering (Oscar Zuniga)
9. 01:12 PM - Re: Pietenpol engineering (Mike)
10. 01:37 PM - List of Contributors #2 - Thank You... (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: mocycle tire pressure |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>Mike,
>I run 45 lbs of pressure in my 3.5 x 18" tires. Is this the reason that
>most of my landings are hard? ( I am looking for any excuse)
>John ++++++++++++++++++++
John, that is TOO funny ! Actually I stack all the odds in my favor. Low
tire pressure, a grass strip, worn-out bungee chords, and a marshmallow
seat cushion to make my landings seem better than they are:)
Do not archive
Message 2
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Subject: | RE: question for the guys with skinny wheels |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
Ahhh, an engineering question. :)
Skip, I tip my hat to your eyeball engineering skills and let me
respectively add additional information to this topic (I don't mean to sound
like a smart ass, I just have an engineering degree sitting on a shelf
collecting dust and like to think I didn't waste my money, so forgive me
please).
The point at which the tire will spin on a rim at touchdown is when the
friction between the tire and rim is less than the force required to
accelerate just the rim AND the acceleration rate of the tire and rim due to
the friction between the tire and ground is greater than the previously
stated rate. What I mean to say is that if the tire sticks to the ground
really well and tries to spin the wheel really fast at touchdown AND the
wheel rim is heavy enough and resists the high acceleration it will break
free of the tire if the friction between the two isn't great enough. (I'm
going to stop now before I get into leverage and moment of inertia, whew.)
This is not a problem in grass because there isn't enough friction between
the tire and ground. Also, this not a problem on any surface with our big
spoke wheels because they have a lot of rim/tire friction area (due to the
increased diameter) and the rims are relatively light. Also, the skinnier
the wheel the better since rim/tire friction area is the same while the
tire/ground friction area is decreased. But as stated earlier, make sure
you have adequate tire pressure to keep an decent amount of friction between
the tire and rim.
Finally, think about this... a motorcycle rider is zipping down the highway
at 60mph and has to stop immediately. He pulls the brakes and stops as fast
as he can. Do the tires spin on the rims?
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
-----Original Message-----
Walt,
The eyeball engineer in me says you should not have the spun tire problem
with large rims, here is my thinking.
A 21" rim has 2 beads of 65.97" so over 130" of friction between rubber and
rim.
The distance between the rim and pavement in my 21" tires is 5", so you have
a 5" lever trying to rotate the tire on the rim and 130" of friction trying
to stop the rotation.
A 4" Cub tire has 2 beads 12.56" so less than 26" of friction and the lever
is about 8" long.
Seems to me the spun tire problem would be much less with the large rims
with small tires on them.
Skip, Still turning my aluminum hubs.
> For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404
(with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes.
One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore
the stem.
> My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires
spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the
pavement and heard a chirp.
>walt
Message 3
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sqrlnet@yahoogroups.com, STOL@onelist.com
Subject: | Alamo City Corvair College |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Howdy, Vairheads;
I got a call from William Wynne last night. As I suspected, he had left for
New Jersey just before Christmas so when he got back to Florida his email
account was jammed, his phone answering machine was full, and who knows what
he had waiting for him at the post office box. But... we're looking good
for the upcoming College and folks who called or wrote to him for parts
should be getting action pretty quickly.
An important correction to note. William prepared and mailed the most
recent Corvair Flyer (his printed newsletter) late at night so he got the
dates for the College wrong. If you see something about Jan. 16-17 don't
despair... it is still set for Saturday, Jan. 18. William will be arriving
sometime around noon on Friday to get set up, but the main workday is
Saturday with details and mop-up on Sunday if anyone is still around and
wants to do anything further. William will be bringing manuals, prop hubs,
oil pans, hybrid studs, and other items that he sells. We will also have a
press (for piston pins and crank hubs), compressed air and tools, jigs for
holding case halves and cylinders, and assembly
lube/form-a-gasket/lubriplate type stuff.
Things to bring if you're building an engine (or dismantling, or
converting): bring your own hand tools such as wrenches, screwdrivers, and a
big hammer ;o) also plenty of carb cleaner and degreaser if you're
dismantling or cleaning/prepping. If you have any sort of folding tables or
portable workbenches, those will be helpful too. Rags are always needed
(such as discarded Texas Aggies shirts) and coffee cans or other containers
for dismantled stuff.
The CORSA guys might be looking over our shoulders just for fun and general
interest, and the local EAA chapter members have all been invited via this
month's Chapter newsletter and email. I'll be giving the program on 1/11 to
the Chapter and of course it will be on the Corvair. My plan is to have a
table up front with the complete, disassembled, painted and prepped engine
available for show and tell, as well as the manual available for browsing.
There shouldn't be a speck of grease or grime on any of it! Thanks to Mark
Langford and Pat Panzera for setting the construction and cleanliness
standards high for the rest of us to follow.
I will post updates and more detailed directions on getting to San Geronimo
Airpark on the http://www.corvaircraft.com main webpage (thanks, Pat!)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 4
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Subject: | RE: question for the guys with skinny wheels |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
Robert,
Thanks, way more than I wanted to know, cool!
Skip
-----Original Message-----
Ahhh, an engineering question. :)
let me
respectively add additional information to this topic
Robert
Message 5
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Subject: | Fwd: [CorvAIRCRAFT] Alamo City Corvair College |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com>
Note: forwarded message attached.
=====
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel@rocketmail.com"
by mta404.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 03 Jan 2003 08:44:03 -0800 (PST)
by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jan 2003 16:44:00 -0000
by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2003 16:44:00 -0000
by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net
(iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.6 (built Oct 18 2002))
03 Jan 2003 10:43:44 -0600 (CST)
Dragonflylist <Dragonflylist@egroups.com>, Q-List <q-list@egroups.com>,
Smith Miniplane <smithminiplane@yahoogroups.com>,
Corvaircraft <corvaircraft@mailinglists.org>,
CorvAIRCRAFT <CorvAIRCRAFT@yahoogroups.com>, corvair@yahoogroups.com,
flycorvair@yahoogroups.com, toms_dragonfly@yahoogroups.com
From: Patrick Panzera <panzera@experimental-aviation.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:CorvAIRCRAFT-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [CorvAIRCRAFT] Alamo City Corvair College
--lhJVRaA3EDtVLwHFmqs9kvatzmBy7aZdBqoVjsT
Just a reminder, the Alamo City Corvair College is coming up fast!
William Wynne will be in attendance at the event hosted by Oscar Zuniga,
Jan. 18, 2003, at San Geronimo Airpark (San Antonio), TX. 8T8 (identifier)
Click for more info:
http://www.corvaircraft.com/
Please pass this along to any other e-mail lists you might belong to...
KR, Pietenpol, etc.
Even car guys might be interested, as the local Corsa chapter will be involved!
Thanks!
Pat
--lhJVRaA3EDtVLwHFmqs9kvatzmBy7aZdBqoVjsT
<tt>
Just a reminder, the Alamo City Corvair College is coming up fast!
William Wynne will be in attendance at the event hosted by Oscar Zuniga,
Jan. 18, 2003, at San Geronimo Airpark (San Antonio), TX. 8T8 (identifier)
Click for more info:
<a href="http://www.corvaircraft.com/">http://www.corvaircraft.com/
Please pass this along to any other e-mail lists you might belong to...
KR, Pietenpol, etc.
Even car guys might be interested, as the local Corsa chapter will be involved!
Thanks!
Pat
</tt>
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Message 6
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Subject: | Re: RE: question for the guys with skinny |
wheels
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net>
If you can all stand one more posting on this question here is my observation.
I have played with really old cars for years (model T Fords and the like) and
tire slippage on these cars is a real problem with these skinny tires if
you don't run
adequate pressure . Your average old model T has 23" or 24" rims with 3" or
3 1/2"
wide tires. The desired tire pressure is 50 to 60 psi. to prevent tire
slippage on
hard acceleration or braking (don't laugh). The reason appears to be that
the bead
areas don't seem to "bite" very well to the rim. These cars also have
clincher style
tires which don't have a cable bead as you all are familiar with so the rim
wraps
in a hook fashion around the bead area so you have lots of contact area and
still
they slip if the pressure is low (30 psi is too low on a car). At 30 psi.
they will even
slip in normal driving and you will easily get a flat in 100 miles with a
torn out valve
stem.
In 1925 the balloon type tire came on the scene with a 21" or smaller rim
and 4 1/2"
wide tire and a cable bead and they JUST worked with 30 psi. I think the
real change
with modern car wheels is the safety style bead with the bead retaining
ridge on the rim
so the tire is tight to the rim after being stretched over this ridge. If
you have tried
you will observe that it is really difficult to break a new bead lose from
the rim on
modern car wheels and correspondingly they tire doesn't slip easily on the
rim even
with low pressures. You will notice that the wheels we work with don't
usually have
this ridge behind the tire bead so it is easy to dismount the tires,
The glue suggestion sounds like a good one.
ps. I have a engineering degree sitting on the shelf as well but it is just
gathering dust
now.
Regards
Les in Calgary
At 08:57 AM 03/01/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines"
><robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
>
>Ahhh, an engineering question. :)
>
>Skip, I tip my hat to your eyeball engineering skills and let me
>respectively add additional information to this topic (I don't mean to sound
>like a smart ass, I just have an engineering degree sitting on a shelf
>collecting dust and like to think I didn't waste my money, so forgive me
>please).
>
>The point at which the tire will spin on a rim at touchdown is when the
>friction between the tire and rim is less than the force required to
>accelerate just the rim AND the acceleration rate of the tire and rim due to
>the friction between the tire and ground is greater than the previously
>stated rate. What I mean to say is that if the tire sticks to the ground
>really well and tries to spin the wheel really fast at touchdown AND the
>wheel rim is heavy enough and resists the high acceleration it will break
>free of the tire if the friction between the two isn't great enough. (I'm
>going to stop now before I get into leverage and moment of inertia, whew.)
>
>This is not a problem in grass because there isn't enough friction between
>the tire and ground. Also, this not a problem on any surface with our big
>spoke wheels because they have a lot of rim/tire friction area (due to the
>increased diameter) and the rims are relatively light. Also, the skinnier
>the wheel the better since rim/tire friction area is the same while the
>tire/ground friction area is decreased. But as stated earlier, make sure
>you have adequate tire pressure to keep an decent amount of friction between
>the tire and rim.
>
>Finally, think about this... a motorcycle rider is zipping down the highway
>at 60mph and has to stop immediately. He pulls the brakes and stops as fast
>as he can. Do the tires spin on the rims?
>
>Robert Haines
>Du Quoin, Illinois
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>Walt,
>The eyeball engineer in me says you should not have the spun tire problem
>with large rims, here is my thinking.
>A 21" rim has 2 beads of 65.97" so over 130" of friction between rubber and
>rim.
>The distance between the rim and pavement in my 21" tires is 5", so you have
>a 5" lever trying to rotate the tire on the rim and 130" of friction trying
>to stop the rotation.
>
>A 4" Cub tire has 2 beads 12.56" so less than 26" of friction and the lever
>is about 8" long.
>
>Seems to me the spun tire problem would be much less with the large rims
>with small tires on them.
>Skip, Still turning my aluminum hubs.
>
>
> > For all of you flying with skinny wheels,,,,,,used to fly my Fisher 404
>(with standard small wheels) with soft tires cause I didn't have brakes.
>One day on landing, I spun the tire on the tube and got a flat cause it tore
>the stem.
> > My question is,,,has anyone with skinny wheels had problem with tires
>spinning on tubes? or flats? This came to mind once when I landed on the
>pavement and heard a chirp.
> >walt
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Wood landing gear |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mpj01@aol.com
Hi,
I've been wrestling with the wood landing gear angles. Do you still have photos
of your work?
Thanks
Mike
Message 8
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Subject: | Pietenpol engineering |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Les writes-
>ps. I have a engineering degree sitting on the shelf as well but
>it is just gathering dust now.
Well, I have an engineering degree still hanging on the wall, but darned if
that fellow Pietenpol didn't come up with a mighty fine airplane without all
us engineers' help anyway!
Oscar Zuniga 'do not archive'
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol engineering |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net>
Trial and error is the most accurate engineering method but sometimes it's
really, really, expensive.
Mike
PS My engineering degree is hiding in a drawer so it won't get me in
trouble.
on 1/3/03 10:56, Oscar Zuniga at taildrags@hotmail.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> Les writes-
>
>> ps. I have a engineering degree sitting on the shelf as well but
>> it is just gathering dust now.
>
> Well, I have an engineering degree still hanging on the wall, but darned if
> that fellow Pietenpol didn't come up with a mighty fine airplane without all
> us engineers' help anyway!
>
> Oscar Zuniga 'do not archive'
Message 10
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Subject: | List of Contributors #2 - Thank You... |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I was particularly touched this year by all of the wonderful comments
people made regarding the Lists and how much they mean to them. As I have
said many times before, running these Lists and creating the many new
features is truly a labor of love.
I will be shipping out the third and final shipment of Flight Bags and A&P
Text Books this afternoon. According to the Post Office, maximum delivery
to the most remote of areas is 8 days. I will have no outstanding Gift
requests following this shipment, so if you don't get the Gift(s) you
requested by, say, the 20th of January, please let me know via email.
I would also once again like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore
( http://www.buildersbooks.com ) who so generously supported this year's
Fund Raiser with both free and substantially discounted merchandise!!
Below you will find the 2002 List of Contributors #2 current as of
12/31/02! Have a look at the list of names there as these are the people
that make all of the services possible! I can't thank you all enough for
your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
Once again, THANK YOU for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
------------------- 2002 List of Contributors #2 -----------------
Adamson, Arden
Andrews, Donald
Bates, Marcus Jr.
Bello, Ariel
Bowhay, Eustace
Boyd, Dave
Carpenter, Kenneth
Carter, David
Clark, Lynn
Dezzani, Peter
Domascimento, Marcio
Enns, Dennis
Fogerson, Richard
Forero, Bert
Gadd, Skip
Gardner, Kip
Hasper, Joseph
Herndon, Richard
Hill, Jeff
Hurd, James
Jefferies, Mark
Johnson, Darrell
Johnson, Jackie
Jones, Eric
Kosta, Michael
Larson, Glenn
Macy, Frank "lucky"
Mehrhoff, Stan
Metzger, Jim
Minichan, David
Moore, Robert
Moore, Warren
Mosher, Doc
Mosier, Colby
Pahnke, Douglas
Reynolds, Richard
Reynolds, Stephen
Sloan, Alex
Slyfield, Skip
Tauchen, Bryan
Travis, T.E.
Uribe, Guillermo
Waligroski, Gregg
Wentzell, David
------------------- 2002 List of Contributors #2 -----------------
DNA: do not archive
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