---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/12/03: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:51 AM - Re: White Ash (Jack Phillips) 2. 08:42 AM - Re: White Ash (Gene Rambo) 3. 09:37 AM - Re: White Ash (walter evans) 4. 09:42 AM - Re: White Ash (walter evans) 5. 10:26 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 01/10/03 () 6. 10:36 AM - Re: White Ash (del magsam) 7. 01:22 PM - does anyone really test their Piet at full gross? (walter evans) 8. 04:29 PM - Re: White Ash (Gene Rambo) 9. 06:07 PM - Re: White Ash (Jack Phillips) 10. 06:30 PM - Re: White Ash (TomTravis@aol.com) 11. 07:05 PM - Re: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. (Weights) (Graham Hansen) 12. 07:06 PM - Re: White Ash (Gene Rambo) 13. 07:30 PM - Re: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. (Weights) (Alex Sloan) 14. 10:29 PM - Re: does anyone really test their Piet at full gross? (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:08 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Rod, There are a couple of good reasons to use Ash, if you can get it. It is hard and dense, similar to Oak, but it doesn't split nearly as readily as Oak. It has remarkable shock absorbing qualities (hence its use in making baseball bats and axe handles) and it doesn't splinter (which is why it is used in making parallel bars for gymnastics). Ash grows only in the northern hemisphere, but the European, North American and Japanese varieties are interchangeable for lumber purposes. You might be able to find Japanese Ash locally. The only other wood with similar shock absorbtion capabilities is American Hickory (which is used for cheap axe handles here), but it is much more prone to splitting and cracking than ash. This information all came from a book I bought years ago from the Smithsonian Institute called "What Wood is That?" What local hardwoods are used for axe handles? They would probably work. The Ash cross member is probably more crucial in the solid axle "Jenny" style landing gear, and could probably be safely substitued with other hardwoods in the Cub style gear, as long as the steel strap under the belly is included. Good luck, Jack -----Original Message----- --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" Group, I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that the plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing gear locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there are alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native hardwoods). Thanks, Rod Wooller Chidlow Australia ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:04 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" Just to throw in an observation, please note that the solid axle "Jenny" style gear does NOT have the ash pieces across the floorboard. If you put it in, you'll be sorry and have to modify your gear fittings substantially, like I have. I have found a source for ash in the northeast, a place that makes boat oars, but can't find the address this moment on my cluttered desk. I'll post it when I find it. Gene Rambo ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Rod, > > There are a couple of good reasons to use Ash, if you can get it. It is > hard and dense, similar to Oak, but it doesn't split nearly as readily as > Oak. It has remarkable shock absorbing qualities (hence its use in making > baseball bats and axe handles) and it doesn't splinter (which is why it is > used in making parallel bars for gymnastics). Ash grows only in the > northern hemisphere, but the European, North American and Japanese varieties > are interchangeable for lumber purposes. You might be able to find Japanese > Ash locally. The only other wood with similar shock absorbtion capabilities > is American Hickory (which is used for cheap axe handles here), but it is > much more prone to splitting and cracking than ash. > > This information all came from a book I bought years ago from the > Smithsonian Institute called "What Wood is That?" What local hardwoods are > used for axe handles? They would probably work. > > The Ash cross member is probably more crucial in the solid axle "Jenny" > style landing gear, and could probably be safely substitued with other > hardwoods in the Cub style gear, as long as the steel strap under the belly > is included. > > Good luck, > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > Group, > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that the > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing gear > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there are > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native > hardwoods). > > Thanks, > > Rod Wooller > Chidlow > Australia > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:29 AM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Rod, I got all my ash and plywood here. They have lots of wood that I never heard of. Got my ash out of their "scrap bargain bin". Maurice L Condon Co (914) 946-4111 250 Ferris Ave White Plains, NY Did a search on Yahoo yellow pages to find them. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "rod wooller" Subject: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > Group, > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that the > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing gear > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there are > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native > hardwoods). > > Thanks, > > Rod Wooller > Chidlow > Australia > > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:51 AM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Gene, Have never looked inside a fixed gear Piet. What holds the strut wing loading across the bottom of the fuse? Just the ply? walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" > > Just to throw in an observation, please note that the solid axle "Jenny" > style gear does NOT have the ash pieces across the floorboard. If you put > it in, you'll be sorry and have to modify your gear fittings substantially, > like I have. I have found a source for ash in the northeast, a place that > makes boat oars, but can't find the address this moment on my cluttered > desk. I'll post it when I find it. > > Gene Rambo > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jack Phillips > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > > > Rod, > > > > There are a couple of good reasons to use Ash, if you can get it. It is > > hard and dense, similar to Oak, but it doesn't split nearly as readily as > > Oak. It has remarkable shock absorbing qualities (hence its use in making > > baseball bats and axe handles) and it doesn't splinter (which is why it is > > used in making parallel bars for gymnastics). Ash grows only in the > > northern hemisphere, but the European, North American and Japanese > varieties > > are interchangeable for lumber purposes. You might be able to find > Japanese > > Ash locally. The only other wood with similar shock absorbtion > capabilities > > is American Hickory (which is used for cheap axe handles here), but it is > > much more prone to splitting and cracking than ash. > > > > This information all came from a book I bought years ago from the > > Smithsonian Institute called "What Wood is That?" What local hardwoods > are > > used for axe handles? They would probably work. > > > > The Ash cross member is probably more crucial in the solid axle "Jenny" > > style landing gear, and could probably be safely substitued with other > > hardwoods in the Cub style gear, as long as the steel strap under the > belly > > is included. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Jack > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > > > > > Group, > > > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that > the > > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing gear > > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there > are > > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native > > hardwoods). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rod Wooller > > Chidlow > > Australia > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:27 AM PST US From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 01/10/03 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Well, Ive been watching this list for about a month now anticipating building a shop this spring and starting a Piet. I was in San Antonio this weekend for my son's USAF graduation and was shocked to learn that the Corvair College was going on there just a few miles from me. Wish I had paid a little more attention. Back home in NE Arkansas now. Hopefully I'll get started on something later this spring and get to know 'most' of ya'll a little better. :-) Frank ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:15 AM PST US From: del magsam Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam Rod White oak is similar to ash. I used it on mine. del --- rod wooller wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > > Group, > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides > together and note that the > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash > where the landing gear > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was > wondering if there are > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can > get oak and native > hardwoods). > > Thanks, > > Rod Wooller > Chidlow > Australia > > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months > FREE* > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:44 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: does anyone really test their Piet at full gross? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" All through my building process, I just figured that I'd be putting a "dummy" passenger in the front seat that weighs in at 180# or so, and putting the plane thru some big "G's" in steep turns or whatever, trying to break something (wearing a chute). Does anyone really do this? Or do we count on the design to be good in spite of our mistakes? What has everyone REALLY done. I'd like to put my mind at ease, not having to do that stuff. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:05 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" I'd have to look, but I think the steel strap across the bottom of the fuselage holds the strut loads (or reinforces it, rather) Gene Rambo ----- Original Message ----- From: walter evans Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > Gene, > Have never looked inside a fixed gear Piet. What holds the strut wing > loading across the bottom of the fuse? Just the ply? > walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Rambo" > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" > > > > Just to throw in an observation, please note that the solid axle "Jenny" > > style gear does NOT have the ash pieces across the floorboard. If you put > > it in, you'll be sorry and have to modify your gear fittings > substantially, > > like I have. I have found a source for ash in the northeast, a place that > > makes boat oars, but can't find the address this moment on my cluttered > > desk. I'll post it when I find it. > > > > Gene Rambo > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jack Phillips > > To: > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > > > > > > Rod, > > > > > > There are a couple of good reasons to use Ash, if you can get it. It is > > > hard and dense, similar to Oak, but it doesn't split nearly as readily > as > > > Oak. It has remarkable shock absorbing qualities (hence its use in > making > > > baseball bats and axe handles) and it doesn't splinter (which is why it > is > > > used in making parallel bars for gymnastics). Ash grows only in the > > > northern hemisphere, but the European, North American and Japanese > > varieties > > > are interchangeable for lumber purposes. You might be able to find > > Japanese > > > Ash locally. The only other wood with similar shock absorbtion > > capabilities > > > is American Hickory (which is used for cheap axe handles here), but it > is > > > much more prone to splitting and cracking than ash. > > > > > > This information all came from a book I bought years ago from the > > > Smithsonian Institute called "What Wood is That?" What local hardwoods > > are > > > used for axe handles? They would probably work. > > > > > > The Ash cross member is probably more crucial in the solid axle "Jenny" > > > style landing gear, and could probably be safely substitued with other > > > hardwoods in the Cub style gear, as long as the steel strap under the > > belly > > > is included. > > > > > > Good luck, > > > > > > Jack > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > > > > > > > > > Group, > > > > > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that > > the > > > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing > gear > > > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > > > > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there > > are > > > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native > > > hardwoods). > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Rod Wooller > > > Chidlow > > > Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:42 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" I built the Jenny style gear, and have the ash crossmembers, but I modified the gear and lift strut fittings to accommodate them. The ash members are in the original F&GM plans, but they have to be cut to allow Pietenpols gear fittings to be used. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" Just to throw in an observation, please note that the solid axle "Jenny" style gear does NOT have the ash pieces across the floorboard. If you put it in, you'll be sorry and have to modify your gear fittings substantially, like I have. I have found a source for ash in the northeast, a place that makes boat oars, but can't find the address this moment on my cluttered desk. I'll post it when I find it. Gene Rambo ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Rod, > > There are a couple of good reasons to use Ash, if you can get it. It is > hard and dense, similar to Oak, but it doesn't split nearly as readily as > Oak. It has remarkable shock absorbing qualities (hence its use in making > baseball bats and axe handles) and it doesn't splinter (which is why it is > used in making parallel bars for gymnastics). Ash grows only in the > northern hemisphere, but the European, North American and Japanese varieties > are interchangeable for lumber purposes. You might be able to find Japanese > Ash locally. The only other wood with similar shock absorbtion capabilities > is American Hickory (which is used for cheap axe handles here), but it is > much more prone to splitting and cracking than ash. > > This information all came from a book I bought years ago from the > Smithsonian Institute called "What Wood is That?" What local hardwoods are > used for axe handles? They would probably work. > > The Ash cross member is probably more crucial in the solid axle "Jenny" > style landing gear, and could probably be safely substitued with other > hardwoods in the Cub style gear, as long as the steel strap under the belly > is included. > > Good luck, > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > Group, > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that the > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing gear > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there are > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native > hardwoods). > > Thanks, > > Rod Wooller > Chidlow > Australia > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:00 PM PST US From: TomTravis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: TomTravis@aol.com I guess I missed something when I read the plans. I'm planning to use the Jenny-style gear and have already put in the ash cross members. What do I need to do to make it work? Tom Travis ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:00 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. (Weights) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" Alex and Group, Today we weighed the wooden Pietenpol fuselage using an old bathroom scale and it seems to be about 70 pounds complete with turtle deck, fairings, seats, instrument panels and firewall. Spruce and birch plywood was used (except for the seat bottoms which were mahogany plywood). Ash crosspieces at the landing gear/ lift strut attachment locations are in place. This fuselage faith- fully follows the 1933 short fuselage plans and is varnished. The workmanship is good. One of these days I'll calculate the weight of a steel tube fuselage using weight per foot figures for the different tubing sizes. Then I'll estimate the weight of seat supports and stuff like that to come up with a comparable figure for the steel fuselage. So figure on about 70 pounds for the wood in a typical Piet fuselage ready for metal fittings, etc. and you will be reasonably close. Graham Hansen ( In Camrose, Alberta, Canada---where it is COLD today.) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:10 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" I beg to differ, I do not believe the F&GM plans show an ash cross member on the bottom in the gear area, I'm pretty sure they show a 1" square spruce piece just like all of the other cross members. If you build the fuselage designed for the Cub-style gear, the "Improved" Piet, it has the ash cross piece, and if you want the straight axle gear you'll have to modify the fittings like Frank Pavliga's design. That's what I am having to do. Gene Rambo do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > I built the Jenny style gear, and have the ash crossmembers, but I modified > the gear and lift strut fittings to accommodate them. The ash members are > in the original F&GM plans, but they have to be cut to allow Pietenpols gear > fittings to be used. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 11:42 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" > > Just to throw in an observation, please note that the solid axle "Jenny" > style gear does NOT have the ash pieces across the floorboard. If you put > it in, you'll be sorry and have to modify your gear fittings substantially, > like I have. I have found a source for ash in the northeast, a place that > makes boat oars, but can't find the address this moment on my cluttered > desk. I'll post it when I find it. > > Gene Rambo > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jack Phillips > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: White Ash > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > > > Rod, > > > > There are a couple of good reasons to use Ash, if you can get it. It is > > hard and dense, similar to Oak, but it doesn't split nearly as readily as > > Oak. It has remarkable shock absorbing qualities (hence its use in making > > baseball bats and axe handles) and it doesn't splinter (which is why it is > > used in making parallel bars for gymnastics). Ash grows only in the > > northern hemisphere, but the European, North American and Japanese > varieties > > are interchangeable for lumber purposes. You might be able to find > Japanese > > Ash locally. The only other wood with similar shock absorbtion > capabilities > > is American Hickory (which is used for cheap axe handles here), but it is > > much more prone to splitting and cracking than ash. > > > > This information all came from a book I bought years ago from the > > Smithsonian Institute called "What Wood is That?" What local hardwoods > are > > used for axe handles? They would probably work. > > > > The Ash cross member is probably more crucial in the solid axle "Jenny" > > style landing gear, and could probably be safely substitued with other > > hardwoods in the Cub style gear, as long as the steel strap under the > belly > > is included. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Jack > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" > > > > > > > Group, > > > > I am nearly ready to join the two fuselage sides together and note that > the > > plans call for two floor cross-braces of white ash where the landing gear > > locates. ( I will be using the cub style gear ). > > > > I can't find a supplier of white ash locally and was wondering if there > are > > alternatives that can be used successfully. ( I can get oak and native > > hardwoods). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rod Wooller > > Chidlow > > Australia > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:45 PM PST US From: "Alex Sloan" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. (Weights) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alex Sloan" Graham, Thanks. I will weigh mine when I get that far along for comparison. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood fuse. vs. tube fuse. (Weights) > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" > > Alex and Group, > > Today we weighed the wooden Pietenpol fuselage using an old > bathroom scale and it seems to be about 70 pounds complete > with turtle deck, fairings, seats, instrument panels and firewall. > > Spruce and birch plywood was used (except for the seat bottoms > which were mahogany plywood). Ash crosspieces at the landing > gear/ lift strut attachment locations are in place. This fuselage faith- > fully follows the 1933 short fuselage plans and is varnished. The > workmanship is good. > > One of these days I'll calculate the weight of a steel tube fuselage > using weight per foot figures for the different tubing sizes. Then I'll > estimate the weight of seat supports and stuff like that to come up > with a comparable figure for the steel fuselage. > > So figure on about 70 pounds for the wood in a typical Piet fuselage > ready for metal fittings, etc. and you will be reasonably close. > > Graham Hansen > ( In Camrose, Alberta, Canada---where it is COLD today.) > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:56 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: does anyone really test their Piet at full gross? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 1/12/03 3:23:08 PM Central Standard Time, wbeevans@worldnet.att.net writes: << All through my building process, I just figured that I'd be putting a "dummy" passenger in the front seat that weighs in at 180# or so, and putting the plane thru some big "G's" in steep turns or whatever, trying to break something (wearing a chute). Does anyone really do this? Or do we count on the design to be good in spite of our mistakes? What has everyone REALLY done. I'd like to put my mind at ease, not having to do that stuff. walt NX140DL (north N.J.) >> Walt, I haven't got to that point in my test phase yet. I have been very cautious proceeding through the flight test period in small increments, and will continue to treat each and every flight as a 'test flight', even after the 40 hrs is flown off. I plan on borrowing some lead ballast ingots when I get to that point. Chuck Gantzer