Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Mon 02/03/03


Total Messages Posted: 26



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:54 AM - Re: Question about Gross Weight (Jack Phillips)
     2. 03:42 AM - Re: Sat. Both sad and happy (John Dilatush)
     3. 04:18 AM - Landing Gear Placement (John Dilatush)
     4. 05:02 AM - Re: Sat. Both sad and happy (John_Duprey@vmed.org)
     5. 05:29 AM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (kirk)
     6. 06:04 AM - prop testing (Oscar Zuniga)
     7. 06:25 AM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (del magsam)
     8. 07:36 AM - Re: Press. oiled A (Les Schubert)
     9. 07:36 AM - Re: Press. oiled A (Les Schubert)
    10. 08:33 AM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (Christian Bobka)
    11. 08:36 AM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (John Dilatush)
    12. 12:30 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (del magsam)
    13. 02:02 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (DRHALL223@aol.com)
    14. 03:00 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (walter evans)
    15. 03:00 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (Christian Bobka)
    16. 03:12 PM - Re: long fuse gear (D.Dale Johnson)
    17. 05:15 PM - Re: long fuse gear (Richard Navratril)
    18. 06:29 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (John Dilatush)
    19. 06:53 PM - Re: long fuse gear (Kip & Beth Gardner)
    20. 08:08 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (del magsam)
    21. 08:12 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (Dmott9@aol.com)
    22. 08:50 PM - Re: Landing Gear Placement (ZigoDan@aol.com)
    23. 10:28 PM - blast it (Christian Bobka)
    24. 10:35 PM - I added this too (Christian Bobka)
    25. 10:50 PM - Ron skip and John (Christian Bobka)
    26. 11:31 PM - Re: Question about Gross Weight (clif)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:54:42 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Question about Gross Weight
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net> Jon, Chris is right, up to a point. The gross weight is basically set by some structural parameter in the aircraft, usually the wing spar or the landing gear. You hear of a plane being stressed to +/- 10 G's, well that means the structure can handle a certain limit load, and depending on how many G's the designer wants the plane to be good for, he divides the limit load by that number of G's and voila - the gross weight pops out! When I was a young engineer just out of college and was working for General Dynamics on the F-16 initial design (sad that a plane designed in 1975 is still one of our front line fighters), the initial gross weight of the plane was 23,000 lbs. (which meant it could go supersonic straight up with its 25,000 lb. thrust engine). Later, some mods to the landing gear enabled it to takeoff with more fuel on board in external tanks and the takeoff gross weight was increased to 37,000 lbs, but its maneuvering gross weight was still 23,000. In other words, the gross weight is somewhat arbitrary. However, be aware that stall speed is a variable and goes up with gross weight. It is quite possible with a robust structured airplane to have a gross weight that is structurally safe but simply can't fly because the stall speed is too high. For my Pietenpol, I've figured on a gross weight of around 1100 lbs. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian Bobka Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Question about Gross Weight --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Jon, For an experimental, it is whatever you want it to be. Believe it or not. You set the rules. No kidding. Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jon Botsford Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about Gross Weight --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jon Botsford" <botsford7@hot.rr.com> Can someone on this list tell me how the Gross Weight is calculated for an aircraft? Jon Botsford


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:42:15 AM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Re: Sat. Both sad and happy
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky@aol.com> <Lincol99@aol.com>; <christinedigsjazz@shaw.ca>; <wayfollower@cox.net>; <claudiabartlett@austin.rr.com>; <T_FIN@Compuserve.com>; <hmposer@charter.net>; <Howdyhilary@aol.com>; <fleece@cox-internet.com>; <NewtonIvy@webtv.net>; <jamestownesimmons@yahoo.com>; <jbrainis@sport.rr.com>; <LCJELKS@aol.com>; <JimNikls@aol.com>; <Herzog807@msn.com>; <Jajouett@aol.com>; <Leeortho@aol.com>; <LGililland@msn.com>; <Linda@huarch.com>; <tvlux@cox.net>; <MAGSOUR@aol.com>; <Marionle35@aol.com>; <Mvphipps39@aol.com>; <rchapman@andersonsmith.com>; <RobertBeachbum@aol.com>; <nfn00979@naples.net>; <TomTravis@aol.com>; <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>; <craigwilcox@peoplepc.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sat. Both sad and happy +++++++++++++++++++ Corky, I share your feelings, both about the shuttle tragedy and the euphoria of your first ride. Thanks for sharing with us. Congratulations! John +++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com > > Pieters and Friends, > Yesterday began very sad for our country and some space participants and > their families. This we all regret deeply. > > Yesterday, my test pilot Mr. Edwin Johnson, finally agreed to let me fly in > my airplane. Sounds funny doesn't it. He had test flown the first 25 hrs and > 36 minutes as required by the FAA before carrying a passenger ( that's me). > Earlier in the afternoon I had cranked up N41CC and taxied up and down the > runway waiting for him. The tailwheel didn't answer to helm as I wanted it so > I came in and made some changes. Finally he arrived and said he would ride > front hole and I would fly from the rear, where else? It took him 2 prop > swings before it started. ( I started it on the first swing earlier). We > talked about our signals etc before we taxied out for run up. Finally I went > to the north end of Lucien and did a few vrooms eased the throttle forward > and felt that 65 Continental try to force me through the seat back. Didn't > even forget to pressure the rudder to the right when the tail lifted. Didn't > know when we left the ground as it was so quick. Kicked in a little right > crab, ( SW wind), and she climbed like an angel on her way home. Made my left > climbing turn and the ball stayed centered. Man, I was livin. Went up to 1K, > 130 deg, to go chase hundreds of white pelicans down on the roaring Red. A > beautiful bird, most people have never seen them from above to see the > beautiful black-top wing tips. Anyway my front holer directed me to Desoto > Parish Airport for some attempts to land this airplane. I had failed to tell > him that I had not landed a tail wheel airplane since 1972. Oh well, he would > soon find out. I made my usual Kamakazi approach as he just sat up there > stunned. Came on down to 18 and leveled off to land as if I had been landing > a big bird. Was pretty high and did I ever spread the gears, ( dropped in). I > was embarrased. We went around again and on base he took it to show me how > well a Piet would slip. On final I slipped it and it was like the old L-16 in > '51. He applauded this landing. Hell, any landing would have beat that first > one. We left Desoto. Forgot to mention that between the Pelicans and Desoto > we went up to 2500 for some steeeeeeeep turns, sslooooooooooow flying and > some stalls, power on and half on. > All went well. I felt right at home. > Next we went to a sod duster operation strip. First landing, kinda bad, again > flairing out too high. Next one he applauded me once again. By then the sun > had set and it was beginning to cool down in 41CC so we came home. Landed at > Lucien, again kinda high but ground control was OK. That Lucien runway can't > be any wider 12 or 15 feet. > I guess you might say this was part of what they call a bi-annual. His only > comment was that we need to do it again as soon as we can get another > beautiful day. As all of you noted, the skies in East Texas and Western La > yesterday were as clear as I ever remember. > I ended the day feeling like a popsickle but very pleased to have piloted our > own creation. Joe Czalicka and I. Those building Piets, don't stop, it's > worth all the work. > > Corky in La > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:18:14 AM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> Pieters, I too, struggled with the placement of the gear on my long fuselage, and finally decided to use the simple weight and balance spreadsheet that I had been using on my computer. When I began building the plane, I made up a simple spreadsheet on the computer which listed the estimated weight and the moments of each major component of the plane such as engine, wing, fuel tank, pilot, passenger etc. Then as each part was built the actual weight was put into the spreadsheet and the revised W&B was automatically computed. When it came to the placement of the gear, I figured that I wanted to have the ground contact of the wheels to be about 12 degrees forward of the CG. Turned out to be perfect. I can use the brakes pretty hard without any tendency to nose over, (the brakes are not that effective)yet it is light enough on the tailwheel, (12 lbs) to handle easily on the ground. Generally speaking, the further forward the gear is, the more squirrely the plane is on take off and landings, but too far aft and it becomes too sensitive to nosing over under braking effort. Hope this helps, John, NX114D


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:02:27 AM PST US
    From: John_Duprey@vmed.org
    Subject: Re: Sat. Both sad and happy
    02/03/2003 08:02:12 AM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John_Duprey@vmed.org Congratulations Corky!!!!!! Isablcorky@aol.com@matronics.com on 02/02/2003 06:31:28 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com Lincol99@aol.com, christinedigsjazz@shaw.ca, wayfollower@cox.net, claudiabartlett@austin.rr.com, T_FIN@Compuserve.com, hmposer@charter.net, Howdyhilary@aol.com, fleece@cox-internet.com, NewtonIvy@webtv.net, jamestownesimmons@yahoo.com, jbrainis@sport.rr.com, LCJELKS@aol.com, JimNikls@aol.com, Herzog807@msn.com, Jajouett@aol.com, Leeortho@aol.com, LGililland@msn.com, Linda@huarch.com, tvlux@cox.net, MAGSOUR@aol.com, Marionle35@aol.com, Mvphipps39@aol.com, rchapman@andersonsmith.com, RobertBeachbum@aol.com, nfn00979@naples.net, TomTravis@aol.com, wbeevans@worldnet.att.net, craigwilcox@peoplepc.com cc: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sat. Both sad and happy --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Pieters and Friends, Yesterday began very sad for our country and some space participants and their families. This we all regret deeply. Yesterday, my test pilot Mr. Edwin Johnson, finally agreed to let me fly in my airplane. Sounds funny doesn't it. He had test flown the first 25 hrs and 36 minutes as required by the FAA before carrying a passenger ( that's me). Earlier in the afternoon I had cranked up N41CC and taxied up and down the runway waiting for him. The tailwheel didn't answer to helm as I wanted it so I came in and made some changes. Finally he arrived and said he would ride front hole and I would fly from the rear, where else? It took him 2 prop swings before it started. ( I started it on the first swing earlier). We talked about our signals etc before we taxied out for run up. Finally I went to the north end of Lucien and did a few vrooms eased the throttle forward and felt that 65 Continental try to force me through the seat back. Didn't even forget to pressure the rudder to the right when the tail lifted. Didn't know when we left the ground as it was so quick. Kicked in a little right crab, ( SW wind), and she climbed like an angel on her way home. Made my left climbing turn and the ball stayed centered. Man, I was livin. Went up to 1K, 130 deg, to go chase hundreds of white pelicans down on the roaring Red. A beautiful bird, most people have never seen them from above to see the beautiful black-top wing tips. Anyway my front holer directed me to Desoto Parish Airport for some attempts to land this airplane. I had failed to tell him that I had not landed a tail wheel airplane since 1972. Oh well, he would soon find out. I made my usual Kamakazi approach as he just sat up there stunned. Came on down to 18 and leveled off to land as if I had been landing a big bird. Was pretty high and did I ever spread the gears, ( dropped in). I was embarrased. We went around again and on base he took it to show me how well a Piet would slip. On final I slipped it and it was like the old L-16 in '51. He applauded this landing. Hell, any landing would have beat that first one. We left Desoto. Forgot to mention that between the Pelicans and Desoto we went up to 2500 for some steeeeeeeep turns, sslooooooooooow flying and some stalls, power on and half on. All went well. I felt right at home. Next we went to a sod duster operation strip. First landing, kinda bad, again flairing out too high. Next one he applauded me once again. By then the sun had set and it was beginning to cool down in 41CC so we came home. Landed at Lucien, again kinda high but ground control was OK. That Lucien runway can't be any wider 12 or 15 feet. I guess you might say this was part of what they call a bi-annual. His only comment was that we need to do it again as soon as we can get another beautiful day. As all of you noted, the skies in East Texas and Western La yesterday were as clear as I ever remember. I ended the day feeling like a popsickle but very pleased to have piloted our own creation. Joe Czalicka and I. Those building Piets, don't stop, it's worth all the work. Corky in La


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:29:11 AM PST US
    From: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com>
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: kirk <kirkh@unique-software.com> You can also check out the landing gear design info from one of Pazmany's books at. http://mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=5 It suggests that the angle from the forward most CG to the contact point of the wheels be 12 to 15 degrees ahead. There is some other info in the article also. I am in the middle of gear building now and it is one of the most difficult, but fun learning experiences so far. Kirk


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:04:13 AM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: prop testing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> Howdy, Pieters- To those of you who have a Corvair on your Piet and who are flying or getting ready to, I have an offer. I just got a brand-new 62x34 Tennessee Props wood prop for the Corvair/Pietenpol. My engine won't be running for a while and definitely won't be installed on a Piet for a good long while, so I stand ready to loan my prop out for testing. The intent is not to have it sitting around, but rather for someone who is flying or on the verge of flying and who could get some useful data from it and maybe get in the air a bit sooner than if you had to order one and wait for it. The prop is through-bored for the safety shaft, 3" thick, left-hand turning, SAE #1 bolt pattern for AN6 bolts. I do not have a crush plate for it yet, but will soon (and all wood props must have one). Anyone interested, let me know off-line and we'll talk. The prop is crated for shipping (I just got it Friday) and it's a beauty. Maybe I'll take a picture and put it on my website. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:25:38 AM PST US
    From: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> Hi John what was different about your craft that you had to change gear location from the plans, and from the location that 500 other pieters placed theirs? thanks Del --- John Dilatush <dilatush@amigo.net> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John > Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> > > Pieters, > > I too, struggled with the placement of the gear on > my long fuselage, and finally decided to use the > simple weight and balance spreadsheet that I had > been using on my computer. > > When I began building the plane, I made up a simple > spreadsheet on the computer which listed the > estimated weight and the moments of each major > component of the plane such as engine, wing, fuel > tank, pilot, passenger etc. > > Then as each part was built the actual weight was > put into the spreadsheet and the revised W&B was > automatically computed. > > When it came to the placement of the gear, I figured > that I wanted to have the ground contact of the > wheels to be about 12 degrees forward of the CG. > Turned out to be perfect. I can use the brakes > pretty hard without any tendency to nose over, (the > brakes are not that effective)yet it is light enough > on the tailwheel, (12 lbs) to handle easily on the > ground. > > Generally speaking, the further forward the gear is, > the more squirrely the plane is on take off and > landings, but too far aft and it becomes too > sensitive to nosing over under braking effort. > > Hope this helps, > > John, NX114D > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com"


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:36:14 AM PST US
    From: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: Press. oiled A
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net> Leon I have always stayed with the babbitt. I have found that with pressure it will hang together at 4500 rpm for many miles of road use, way faster than we will run in a airplane. I am not sure I am a big fan of thin shell bearings in a A especially at high power settings as the A crank is still quite flexible and the babbitt will "adjust" to the required clearance which the thinly coated shell bearings can't. Maybe this doesn't really happen but it suits my experience. Les At 11:25 PM 02/02/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > >Les: When you drill and pressure oiled the crank, did you stay with the >babbit, or go with insert bearings? Leon S Hutchinson Ks. > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:36:14 AM PST US
    From: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: Press. oiled A
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net> Dan It seems like every guy I have talked to always wishes he had a little more power. Getting more power out of a A or most any engine is pretty easy, it is getting them to "live" that is the challenge. Henry didn't drill cranks till the V 8 which came out right after the A, and went from 40 hp to 85 hp with almost the same displacement. I am not a big fan of insert bearings for the A crank, but maybe they work. A properly done babbitt job with pressure works just fine for extra power engines. Les At 12:42 AM 03/02/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > >I assume you guys are going to turn up the heat in your A powered ships. The >pressured oil supply is not needed if turning Pietenpols recommended RPM. >But I understand that it is nice to have. The engine is able to produce more >power than designed for. Better breathing is what I have understood to help >the most, increase the intake CFMS. The insert bearings I have seen >available use a center thrust, is this the norm? If so it would not seem to >be a good idea, since the thrust loads need to stay were they are for >aircraft use. >P.S. I have an A engine with most machine work done, and new bearings for >$550.00 anyone interested email me at zigodan@aol.com. > >Dan > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:33:24 AM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Del, as my recent post on this subject says, if you build the long "corvair" fuselage, NO GEAR was ever shown on the drawings. So how do yo know where it should be? The point of my presentation is that if you don't know where it is to be per the drawings then this is one man's (my) best guess. Also, I use Sky Gypsy as a prime example of a much beloved Piet that was built one way and then promptly modified to be manageable by a very able pilot. May I suggest that the 500 less the Sky Gypsy are the 499 piets that never fly? Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of del magsam Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> Hi John what was different about your craft that you had to change gear location from the plans, and from the location that 500 other pieters placed theirs? thanks Del --- John Dilatush <dilatush@amigo.net> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John > Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> > > Pieters, > > I too, struggled with the placement of the gear on > my long fuselage, and finally decided to use the > simple weight and balance spreadsheet that I had > been using on my computer. > > When I began building the plane, I made up a simple > spreadsheet on the computer which listed the > estimated weight and the moments of each major > component of the plane such as engine, wing, fuel > tank, pilot, passenger etc. > > Then as each part was built the actual weight was > put into the spreadsheet and the revised W&B was > automatically computed. > > When it came to the placement of the gear, I figured > that I wanted to have the ground contact of the > wheels to be about 12 degrees forward of the CG. > Turned out to be perfect. I can use the brakes > pretty hard without any tendency to nose over, (the > brakes are not that effective)yet it is light enough > on the tailwheel, (12 lbs) to handle easily on the > ground. > > Generally speaking, the further forward the gear is, > the more squirrely the plane is on take off and > landings, but too far aft and it becomes too > sensitive to nosing over under braking effort. > > Hope this helps, > > John, NX114D > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com"


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:36:43 AM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement +++++++++++++++++++++ Del, To answer your question: Each Pietenpol that has been built seems to vary from the plans some according to the engine used, builder's preference on details, woods used, finishes applied and on and on. All of these changes result in a different CG location. Since the ground handling is dependent on the landing gear location and the landing gear location is dependent upon the CG (both horizontal and vertical) then each gear location should be figured for the particular plane if one is to get the kind of handling he is looking for. This is one of the challenges of building your own plane from plans rather than from a kit. In my case, I am running a heavier powerplant than usual, have added brakes, tailwheel, seat padding, electrical system, ELT, cowl tank and other modifications, all of which change the CG from the plans. Although the gear location is changed by only a couple of inches from the plans and is not super critical, I chose to be precise. John +++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> > > Hi John > what was different about your craft that you had to > change gear location from the plans, and from the > location that 500 other pieters placed theirs? > thanks > Del > --- John Dilatush <dilatush@amigo.net> wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John > > Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> > > > > Pieters, > > > > I too, struggled with the placement of the gear on > > my long fuselage, and finally decided to use the > > simple weight and balance spreadsheet that I had > > been using on my computer. > > > > When I began building the plane, I made up a simple > > spreadsheet on the computer which listed the > > estimated weight and the moments of each major > > component of the plane such as engine, wing, fuel > > tank, pilot, passenger etc. > > > > Then as each part was built the actual weight was > > put into the spreadsheet and the revised W&B was > > automatically computed. > > > > When it came to the placement of the gear, I figured > > that I wanted to have the ground contact of the > > wheels to be about 12 degrees forward of the CG. > > Turned out to be perfect. I can use the brakes > > pretty hard without any tendency to nose over, (the > > brakes are not that effective)yet it is light enough > > on the tailwheel, (12 lbs) to handle easily on the > > ground. > > > > Generally speaking, the further forward the gear is, > > the more squirrely the plane is on take off and > > landings, but too far aft and it becomes too > > sensitive to nosing over under braking effort. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > John, NX114D > > > > > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > latest messages. > > List members. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 12:30:32 PM PST US
    From: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com>
    Subject: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> --- Christian Bobka <bobka@charter.net> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian > Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > Del, > > as my recent post on this subject says, if you build > the long "corvair" > fuselage, NO GEAR was ever shown on the drawings. > So how do yo know where > it should be? The point of my presentation is that > if you don't know where > it is to be per the drawings then this is one man's > (my) best guess. Also, > I use Sky Gypsy as a prime example of a much beloved > Piet that was built one > way and then promptly modified to be manageable by a > very able pilot. May I > suggest that the 500 less the Sky Gypsy are the 499 > piets that never fly? > > Chris If the gear location isn't indicated on the long fuse option plans, I would assume it is not changed from the original plans, which is where I mounted mine. And it made sense to put the gear mounts per plans because that is where the upright longeron braces connect the wing connection hardware to the gear connection hardware. to directly absorb the weight of the wing on landing. So...should I reconsider? or will that work. thanks for your input Del ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com"


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:02:08 PM PST US
    From: DRHALL223@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: DRHALL223@aol.com Hey Folks, In the papers I received with my plans there is a memo of sorts that talks to the movement forward of the landing gear on the stretched fuselage version. If there is any interest I could probably get it scanned and post it. Dave Hall Fayetteville, NC


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:00:14 PM PST US
    From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> Just jumping in with my two cents. In spite of what engine you use or equiptment you put on, the CG is still in the same window. Assuming that the gear is hooked to the same attach points, if you use the split gear, the only way to relocate the wheels is by changing the style of the "V". If you do this, as the gear moves thru it's range of motion while the bungees are flexing, the toe-in/toe-out caster/camber is all going to be different from original. Except for moving engine forward about 2" (A-65 long fuselage) to compensate for my fat arse, the CG is still in the window(way to the rear). I built the split gear to the plans, and it seems to handle fine riding on the mains waiting to leave the earth. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "del magsam" <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> > > > --- Christian Bobka <bobka@charter.net> wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian > > Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > > > Del, > > > > as my recent post on this subject says, if you build > > the long "corvair" > > fuselage, NO GEAR was ever shown on the drawings. > > So how do yo know where > > it should be? The point of my presentation is that > > if you don't know where > > it is to be per the drawings then this is one man's > > (my) best guess. Also, > > I use Sky Gypsy as a prime example of a much beloved > > Piet that was built one > > way and then promptly modified to be manageable by a > > very able pilot. May I > > suggest that the 500 less the Sky Gypsy are the 499 > > piets that never fly? > > > > Chris > If the gear location isn't indicated on the long fuse > option plans, I would assume it is not changed from > the original plans, which is where I mounted mine. And > it made sense to put the gear mounts per plans because > that is where the upright longeron braces connect the > wing connection hardware to the gear connection > hardware. to directly absorb the weight of the wing on > landing. So...should I reconsider? or will that work. > thanks for your input > Del > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 03:00:27 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Del, The mounting points are the same. The mounting hardware is the same. The V just changes shape as the axle is moved back. Looking at the wood gear shown 1932 F & G Manual, the forward leg of the V is more vertical and shorter than the aft leg of the V which is longer. As the axle moves back the legs begin to equal out in length. This is needed on the long "corvair" fuselage as used on sky gypsy because you moved the CG aft and you increased vertical surface area aft. There are three conditions: 1) low speed aircraft handling on ground with negligible total aerodynamic effects. 2) high speed aircraft handling on the ground with considerable total aerodynamic effects. 3) aircraft in flight. Landing gear has limited aerodynamic effects. In case one, you are dealing with taxiing, speeding up for take off and slowing down after landing. This is with little or no help from the rudder due to slow speeds. The farther forward the gear is located on the fuselage, the greater the distance between the CG and the gear axle. Also, lowering the tail slides the gear even further forward. We are used to the CG being defined as the point of rotation of all reactions but this only applies in flight. If a wheel is touching the ground, then the wheel contact point, which is just below the axle becomes the point of rotation because that is where the airplane is "attached" to the ground. The greater the distance between the CG and this ground "attachment" point, the harder it is for the pilot to transition from ground mode to flight mode. Small changes forward in axle placement greatly increase the tendency to ground loop. In addition, as the axle is moved forward, there is an increased side surface area aft of the "attach" point of the aircraft with the ground. With a forward axle, any crosswinds would cause the tail to swing right around into the wind. Don't forget that any surface moved from in front to behind the axle hurts you twice becuase forward of the axle it was helping to counter what was behind the axle. Now it is adding to what is behind the axle. Also, the distance from the axle to the end of the ship increases the leverage that side surface area exerts in a crosswind. Granted, this may increase rudder effectivity but we are dealing with a flying surface that is trying to use air on the downwind side of the fuselage to move the fuselage back toward the windward side. The downswind side of the fuselage is essentially blanked out so the rudder has limited effectiveness. In case two, a too far forward placement of the axle will cause increased ground looping tendencies due to CG placement relative the axle and side surface area relative the axle as noted in the previous paragraph. With the axle too far forward, it will be virtually impossible to lift the tail for takeoff until an abnormally high speed in ground roll is attained. A tail wheel airplane is not designed for this. It will present a high drag profile to the relative wind and the takeoff rolls will be too long. It will also increase the structural loading on the tail with some pretty large impact loads. You will be ripping the tail skid/wheel off on a regular basis. In case three, the too far forward placement of the gear would put vertical surface area (the wheel sides) far forward of the CG. This will tend to cancel the stabilizing effect of the vertical stabilizer. As cool as covered spoked wheels look, this is a big reason why many that have used spoked wheels with fabric covering have removed the fabric covering. The two big vertical discs negated the stabilizing effects of the vertical stabilizer. In summary, the axle needs to placed as far aft as possible but with consideration of limiting the tendency to noseover. Others posted messages to this list indicating the degree angle that the axle needs to be forward of the CG. This is do true but it truly neds to be understood. A picture would really help to see what is meant. We tend to think of the CG as a point on the wing where the ship balances. This is a valid CG location but this is the longitudinal CG or the CG along the longitudinal axis. We need to also consider the other axes. There is a CG about the vertical axis and a CG about the lateral axis. Combine these three and you get a single point about which all the mass of the aircraft is located. A guess on the Pietenpol, with its high wing, is that it is located at or about the center of the instrument panel. If you level the ship and then hang a plumb bob from this point and then make the angle forward of this (someone else mentioned it in an email a minute ago, was it 7 degrees?), your axle should optimally lie on that line. This would be the axle location that is as far back as possible yet far enought forward to keep you from nosing over. I hope this helps. Chris Bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of del magsam Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> --- Christian Bobka <bobka@charter.net> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian > Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > Del, > > as my recent post on this subject says, if you build > the long "corvair" > fuselage, NO GEAR was ever shown on the drawings. > So how do yo know where > it should be? The point of my presentation is that > if you don't know where > it is to be per the drawings then this is one man's > (my) best guess. Also, > I use Sky Gypsy as a prime example of a much beloved > Piet that was built one > way and then promptly modified to be manageable by a > very able pilot. May I > suggest that the 500 less the Sky Gypsy are the 499 > piets that never fly? > > Chris If the gear location isn't indicated on the long fuse option plans, I would assume it is not changed from the original plans, which is where I mounted mine. And it made sense to put the gear mounts per plans because that is where the upright longeron braces connect the wing connection hardware to the gear connection hardware. to directly absorb the weight of the wing on landing. So...should I reconsider? or will that work. thanks for your input Del ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com"


    Message 16


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    Time: 03:12:31 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: long fuse gear
    From: "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john@juno.com>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john@juno.com> Kip Center of axal to fire wall 21 " It seems right. Dale


    Message 17


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    Time: 05:15:21 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re: long fuse gear
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net> Dale Are you to the point of final or close w/b yet? If so, how far back did you have to rake your wing to get acceptable balance? On my short Fuse Piet the wing is back almost 4". I am hoping to avoid that, this time It makes getting into the rear cockpit somewhat challanging. I installed the center section cutout but the trailing edge ends dont allow much room. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john@juno.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: long fuse gear > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D.Dale Johnson" <dd5john@juno.com> > > Kip > > Center of axal to fire wall 21 " > It seems right. > Dale > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 06:29:32 PM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement ++++++++++++++++++++ Chris, Good explanation, you are absolutely right! Piet builders should understand that wheel placement is relative to the center of gravity of the entire mass and to use an arbitrary measurement such as "distance from the firewall" or "in front of the leading edge" are only asking for trouble. John +++++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > Del, > > The mounting points are the same. The mounting hardware is the same. The V > just changes shape as the axle is moved back. Looking at the wood gear > shown 1932 F & G Manual, the forward leg of the V is more vertical and > shorter than the aft leg of the V which is longer. As the axle moves back > the legs begin to equal out in length. This is needed on the long "corvair" > fuselage as used on sky gypsy because you moved the CG aft and you increased > vertical surface area aft. > > There are three conditions: > > 1) low speed aircraft handling on ground with negligible total aerodynamic > effects. > > 2) high speed aircraft handling on the ground with considerable total > aerodynamic effects. > > 3) aircraft in flight. Landing gear has limited aerodynamic effects. > > > In case one, you are dealing with taxiing, speeding up for take off and > slowing down after landing. This is with little or no help from the rudder > due to slow speeds. The farther forward the gear is located on the > fuselage, the greater the distance between the CG and the gear axle. Also, > lowering the tail slides the gear even further forward. We are used to the > CG being defined as the point of rotation of all reactions but this only > applies in flight. If a wheel is touching the ground, then the wheel > contact point, which is just below the axle becomes the point of rotation > because that is where the airplane is "attached" to the ground. The greater > the distance between the CG and this ground "attachment" point, the harder > it is for the pilot to transition from ground mode to flight mode. Small > changes forward in axle placement greatly increase the tendency to ground > loop. > > In addition, as the axle is moved forward, there is an increased side > surface area aft of the "attach" point of the aircraft with the ground. > With a forward axle, any crosswinds would cause the tail to swing right > around into the wind. Don't forget that any surface moved from in front to > behind the axle hurts you twice becuase forward of the axle it was helping > to counter what was behind the axle. Now it is adding to what is behind the > axle. Also, the distance from the axle to the end of the ship increases the > leverage that side surface area exerts in a crosswind. Granted, this may > increase rudder effectivity but we are dealing with a flying surface that is > trying to use air on the downwind side of the fuselage to move the fuselage > back toward the windward side. The downswind side of the fuselage is > essentially blanked out so the rudder has limited effectiveness. > > In case two, a too far forward placement of the axle will cause increased > ground looping tendencies due to CG placement relative the axle and side > surface area relative the axle as noted in the previous paragraph. With > the axle too far forward, it will be virtually impossible to lift the tail > for takeoff until an abnormally high speed in ground roll is attained. A > tail wheel airplane is not designed for this. It will present a high drag > profile to the relative wind and the takeoff rolls will be too long. It > will also increase the structural loading on the tail with some pretty large > impact loads. You will be ripping the tail skid/wheel off on a regular > basis. > > In case three, the too far forward placement of the gear would put vertical > surface area (the wheel sides) far forward of the CG. This will tend to > cancel the stabilizing effect of the vertical stabilizer. As cool as > covered spoked wheels look, this is a big reason why many that have used > spoked wheels with fabric covering have removed the fabric covering. The > two big vertical discs negated the stabilizing effects of the vertical > stabilizer. > > In summary, the axle needs to placed as far aft as possible but with > consideration of limiting the tendency to noseover. Others posted messages > to this list indicating the degree angle that the axle needs to be forward > of the CG. This is do true but it truly neds to be understood. A picture > would really help to see what is meant. We tend to think of the CG as a > point on the wing where the ship balances. This is a valid CG location but > this is the longitudinal CG or the CG along the longitudinal axis. We need > to also consider the other axes. There is a CG about the vertical axis and > a CG about the lateral axis. Combine these three and you get a single point > about which all the mass of the aircraft is located. A guess on the > Pietenpol, with its high wing, is that it is located at or about the center > of the instrument panel. If you level the ship and then hang a plumb bob > from this point and then make the angle forward of this (someone else > mentioned it in an email a minute ago, was it 7 degrees?), your axle should > optimally lie on that line. This would be the axle location that is as far > back as possible yet far enought forward to keep you from nosing over. > > I hope this helps. > > Chris Bobka > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of del > magsam > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> > > > --- Christian Bobka <bobka@charter.net> wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian > > Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > > > Del, > > > > as my recent post on this subject says, if you build > > the long "corvair" > > fuselage, NO GEAR was ever shown on the drawings. > > So how do yo know where > > it should be? The point of my presentation is that > > if you don't know where > > it is to be per the drawings then this is one man's > > (my) best guess. Also, > > I use Sky Gypsy as a prime example of a much beloved > > Piet that was built one > > way and then promptly modified to be manageable by a > > very able pilot. May I > > suggest that the 500 less the Sky Gypsy are the 499 > > piets that never fly? > > > > Chris > If the gear location isn't indicated on the long fuse > option plans, I would assume it is not changed from > the original plans, which is where I mounted mine. And > it made sense to put the gear mounts per plans because > that is where the upright longeron braces connect the > wing connection hardware to the gear connection > hardware. to directly absorb the weight of the wing on > landing. So...should I reconsider? or will that work. > thanks for your input > Del > > ===== > Del-New Richmond, Wi > "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 06:53:25 PM PST US
    From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: long fuse gear
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> At 10:27 PM -0500 02/02/03, Waytogopiet@aol.com wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Waytogopiet@aol.com > >In a message dated 2/2/2003 8:04:58 PM Central Standard Time, >kipandbeth@earthlink.net writes: > >> I can ask him for details or make measurements for anyone that wants them > >Kip, >I would very much appreciate any info in this regard that Frank can pass >along. I have the long fuselage with the Model A and the solid wood gear, the >same as his. I had built and installed the gear before the thread began on >this subject. Of course that gear was intended for the original FGM version. >I positioned mine in the location of the second version ("new, improved") >which is probably equally wrong but I wanted to resist making any changes >before doing my w&b and seeing what my tailwheel weight was. There may be >meaningful differences dpending on whether Frank used fir or spruce on his >fuselage. I did make a concerted effort to keep mine light in the >tailfeathers and used spruce throughout. I'm fully covered, painted and >complete and hopefully will be doing my final w&b this weekend. Thanks agin >for the offer. Don Hicks Don, I will ask Frank about his W&B the next time I see him - might be a few weeks - I'm not getting out to the airport as much during the winter. Then it's a question of whether or not he's there too, although he's pushing hard to finish up the Waco, so he's there pretty regularly. I'll at least try to get out there for a bit this weekend & measure the firewall to axle distance on Sky Gypsy & will post it on the list when I do. Frank & his Dad built the plane out of 'conventional' materials A/C grade spruce & plywood, so without asking him, don't know why it's got the condition Chris was talking about, especially since he's just got a tail skid (no wheel) & that keeps the back end weight down some too. I don't recall seeing a chunk of lead on the motor mount when it was torn down for it's annual last Spring, but then I wasn't looking for one either! I'm not as worried about this so much on mine (yet!), since with the Corvair I'll have a chunk of lead up front by necessity - it's called a battery:). Regards, Kip Gardner North Canton, OH


    Message 20


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    Time: 08:08:33 PM PST US
    From: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam <farmerdel@rocketmail.com> --- John Dilatush <dilatush@amigo.net> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John > Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Placement > ++++++++++++++++++++ > Chris, > > Good explanation, you are absolutely right! Piet > builders should understand > that wheel placement is relative to the center of > gravity of the entire mass > and to use an arbitrary measurement such as > "distance from the firewall" or > "in front of the leading edge" are only asking for > trouble. > > John As long as I have everything built, I'll bolt it together and see where I'm at. then change from there if need be. I will be using a sonex style tailwheel set up, which will cut weight by a good measure. and aid in controllability. thanks for the explanations. Del ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com"


    Message 21


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    Time: 08:12:46 PM PST US
    From: Dmott9@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dmott9@aol.com In a message dated 2/3/03 7:18:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, dilatush@amigo.net writes: > When it came to the placement of the gear, I figured that I wanted to have > the ground contact of the wheels to be about 12 degrees forward of the CG. > Turned out to be perfect. I can use the brakes pretty hard without any > tendency to nose over, (the brakes are not that effective)yet it is light > enough on the tailwheel, (12 lbs) to handle easily on the ground. I am curious John, how did you arrive at the 12 degrees forward of the CG ? Or is that 12 inches ? -dennis


    Message 22


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    Time: 08:50:10 PM PST US
    From: ZigoDan@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Landing Gear Placement
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com I owned a 1938 Aeronca chief at one time. The gear was far forward, to me it made a forgiving aircraft, and I think one would have had to worked hard to put it on the nose. The down side is it was hard to see out of when in the three point attitude. You had to land with your peripheral vision when three pointing. And it took a long time to get the nose up. But with the gear as far forward it put a lot of weight on the tail, and made it feal more positive to me. In retrospect my father-in-law has a Champ, and one day I was by myself in the front seat, during the run up with brakes set I relaxed the stick forward and almost put it on the nose, scared the crap out of me. With my Chief and his Champ side by side you could really tell how far forward the gear was on the Chief compared to his Champ. And it seems to me when I used to build model RC planes putting the gear farther forward help ground stability. Now I have not followed this discussion that well but felt like telling you guys this just in case it might help. If not nothing is lost. DNA Dan


    Message 23


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    Time: 10:28:58 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    "Jim Skidmore" <jimskid@hotmail.com>, "Jim Markle" <Jim.Markle@primus.com>, "Ron Oehler" <r.oehler@attbi.com>, "Peter Denny" <peter.denny@mpls.k12.mn.us>, "Pete Gavin" <petegavin@mn.rr.com>, "Pat Halligan" <pkhflying@aol.com>, "Mike Dolan" <iamtopgun@voyager.net>, "Jeff Coffey" <coffey@crc-inc.com>, "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal@startribune.com>, "Frankh" <frankhanish@cs.com>, "Ed Hansen" <DnEHansen@aol.com>, "David Kujawa" <dkujawa@cox.net>, "Dan Carroll" <ecarroll@cpinternet.com>, "Chris Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>, "Ron Hoyt" <rrhoyt@ieee.org>
    Subject: blast it
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Pete, Here it is. An attachment will come as well. I have pictures here at home to personally deliver on tuesday evening. Chris BLAST IT! Part VIII by Chris Bobka This series was discontinued after the seventh installment when son number two began to walk! That also coincided with David Kujawa leaving the chapter newsletter editorship and taking over editorship of Sport Aerobatics magazine and moving away to Arizona with his lovely wife, Diane. Instead of looking forward to dropping off articles at David and Diane's and sharing a few beers, I was frought with fear at having to bring articles to ugly Pete and Bob. I hope you can find me some forgiveness for leaving you all hanging. So sorry. Much prodding on the part of Pete, Greg, Frankh, and others from the Pietenpol chat group has gotten me back to finishing off the series with this final installment. We left off with the gauntlets ready for installation to the front of the box. I have included Figures 11 and 12 which show a cutting diagram for the gauntlet and what the finished gauntlet should look like. As shown in Figure 12, cut some darts into the big end of the gauntlet to help it lay flat as shown in Figure 13. Put some caulk around the left opening in the box and, using a heavy duty stapler, shoot some 1/4" staples into the box around the circumference of the glove to hold it in place. Don't do what Norm did so make sure you use the left handed gauntlet in the left hole of the box and make sure you orient the thumb so that it is at about the 12 o'clock position. If you put the wrong gauntlet on that hole, you will have to stand on the cieling in order to sandblast. Like Norm. Put more of the caulk on top of the gauntlet and then take one of the rings from Figure 3 and and use enough 1-1/4" drywall screws to hold the gauntlet in place. You can clean up any of the squeezed out caulk at this time. Install the other glove. Thumbs up! Next we need to install the door. You cut out the door opening in Figure 4 and at that time, I instructed you to save the cut out piece. Go get it. Have an assistant hold the cut out piece in the door opening. Take two old door hinges from the junk box and mark off the screw positions on the door and on the frame to the rear of the door. Ensure that the hinge pins lie directly over the cut line and the hinge lines are in line with each other. Now take the door piece and lay it onto another piece of plywood that is bigger than it. Mark off the same general shape but about 1-1/2 inches all the way around it EXCEPT for the rear edge. This mark off should be even with the rear edge of the door so the door can swing open. What we are making here is a piece of plywood that will overlap the door jamb so as to contain the direct blast of the sand. With your radial saw, cut out the new piece. As the hinges on the door must lay in the same plane as the box, it will be necessary to make cutouts to allow this new piece to clear the door. Cut these out with a sabre saw. The top and side views of Figure 14 clearly show this. You may design a better way and I know that there are better ways but this is the way I did it. Go for it! Make the latch as shown in Figure 14 from some scrap plywood. Attach the door and latch to the box. If you want, you can get some felt weatherstripping about 1/8" thick and 1/2-3/4" wide and put it around the door jamb as indicated to help contain some of the sand. An 1/8" looks thick but it will compress right down. Well that is it. The box is done. Now we have to come up with the gun. You want a good one. The reason is that the gun uses air that passes through a venturi in the gun to create suction which pulls the sand up from the hopper, through the feed tube, and through the venturi itself, accelerating the sand along the way. At the venturi, the sand makes a sharp turn before it exits the nozzle. My dad, the physicist, says that force times mass equals impact. We want impact as that is what does the sandblasting. Mass is related to the the size and density of the particle. Force is the effectiveness of the gun at accelerating the particle. Every particle of sand that comes out of the gun also is trying to wear down the venturi of the gun. A cheap ceramic nozzle coupled with a soft steel venturi will not last long as the sand will abrade it right down and the venturi will no longer be properly shaped to create a quality vacuum (if a vacuum sucks, is it good or bad?). Lots of air will come out of the nozzle but no abrasive. Then you will blame me that the sandblaster does not work. We need space age materials. We need titanium. We need carbide. So I will tell you what gun to get. It is shown in Figure 15. It is available at Grainger, among other places, and can be found on the internet as of February 2003 at: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/catalogpageview.jsp?xi=xi&CatPage=1427 You want model 3JT01 for the 12 CFM model. It lists for a wopping 77 dollars but buddy Jim Markle at jim_markle@mindspring.com has agreed to purchase these guns from Grainger at his substantial discount and have them drop shipped to interested buyers. The best thing is that parts are available too as listed on the same web page. The gun does not have a trigger. You do not want a gun with a trigger. A gun with a trigger takes up too much room and your finger gets tired holding the trigger. Instead of a trigger, I merely connect and disconnect a Milton coupling right at the aft end of the gun. You could get fancy and use a foot pedal air switch or you could put a valve at the point where the air line goes into the box. Use what you think you would like. Once you have your gun, attach it to the end of the pickup tube inside the box with an appropriate length of 5/8" ID cheap clear vinyl tubing from the big rack of tubing at Home Depot that I told you to get earlier. Use some hose clamps to hold the hose on at both ends. Drill the smallest size hole you can get away with to let the air line into the box. It should be located near where the pickup tube is located so that both hoses can flop around more or less together. You need a vacuum cleaner of the big shop vac variety. This is a necessity as you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. Without a shop vac, it will be so cloudy inside the box after a minute that you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If there is no shop vac then this air will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will contract silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the shop vac. Better yet, use an extra long vacuum hose and put the shop vac outside as even the filter on the shop vac won't trap all the fines. Their are endless varieties of abrasives to use. I use number five white silica sand. You can remember number five as that is how many fingers you should have on one of your hands. It is the same stuff that you see in sand filled ashtrays next to the door to elevators in office buildings. Many sandblasting supply outfits are reluctant to sell you sand for sandblasting beacuse they are afraid you will not be using proper breathing protection and they will be sued by your hiers after you die of silicosis. If you tell them it is for ashtrays, then they will chum right up and gladly sell it to you. It will come in 50 or 100 lb sacks. 100 lbs should do for starters. Dick Navratril, a Pietenpol builder here in the Twin Cities area (horzpool@goldengate.net), says you could also try a larger swimming pool dealer to get sand. In his swimming pool supply shop, he carries red flint granite sand sized at .45-.55 mm. It is rather aggressive but doesn't dust nearly as much as white silica sands. Some may try to use glass beads or walnut shells. It all depends upon the finish you wish, the aggressiveness of the cleaning, and the price you are willing to pay. You may consider building more than one sandblasting box. Each can have a different abrasive. It is difficult to change abrasives from big to little for the following reason: you will probably never get all the big stuff out. What will happen is that you will make a change from big particles to little particles. You will think you have it licked and you will be blasting away looking at the fine, uniform finish on your blasted piece. Just as the ten millionth particle comes out of the nozzle, a stray big particle will come out, and whamo! there appears what will looks like a huge crater in your work as that single particle hits. It may not bother you and it may not matter based on the part you are blasting but sometime it may matter. Again, the choice is yours. Once my new hangar is done, it will sport a couple of blasting boxes each with a different abrasive. Additonal abrasives management discussion is outside the scope of this article. I am sure that industrious users of their new blast cabinet will seek out information on http://www.google.com for more information. A few tips on use are in order. All the debris you blast off of the pieces you are sandblasting will fall down into the sand. Eventually, they will migrate to the bottom of the hopper as it becomes their "turn" to be sucked into the pickup tube. Large pieces of debris will clog the venturi of the gun. The short term fix is to hold your free hand over the discharge nozzle of the gun, forcing the compressed air down the hose abrasive supply hose and the pickup tube and blowing all the junk out. This will work for a while but sooner or later you will have to empty the abrasive out the bottom of the hopper and sift it. I use a big sifter from the cookingware aisle of the supermarket that looks like a bowl made out of screening. This is the long term fix. Use a pair of pliers kept in the box to hold small parts so you are not always blasting away at the fingertips of your gloves as you hold parts. The box makes for really good storage of parts that must be kept rust free. The large quantity of sand acts as a dessicant to keep the air in the box dry. You can also experiment with different air pressures. 50-60 PSI works good for most work. It is hard for many air compressors to keep this up at 12 CFM so from time to time you need to give the air compressor a chance to catch up. Also, most air compressors have a duty cycle which means that it is expected that a certain percentage of the time, the air compressor should be off and resting. It cools when it rests. You may consider a supplemental fan blowing on your air compressor to keep it cool. Do not take stuff out of the blaster unless you have gloves on. The pros say to use surgical gloves. Oils and acids from your skin will cause the part to rust, even under paint. As stressed in the beginning of this series of articles, moisture is the bane of all sandblasters. you must have adequate moisture control in your system. The ideal air supply system uses many feet of metal, not plastic or rubber, air line between the compressor and the sandblaster. The metal absorbs the heat from the compressed air. As the compressed air cools, the water in it will condense out and deposit, in the form of water droplets, onto the inside surface of the cool pipe. As the air passes through the pipe it will roll these droplets along until they hit a moisture trap that will inertially snag them and keep them from traveling further. It is important to note that moisture traps trap water droplets, not water vapor. Putting a mositure trap at the compressor outlet will not do much good since the air will carry mostly vapor here as the air is so hot. The best "final" moisture trap I know of is the 1/2" coalescing air filter as illustrated in Figure 16 and sold by Tip Sandblasting at 1-800-321-9260. It uses a roll of toilet paper inside the unit to absorb all remaining mositure after the air has traveled through the standard inertial moisture traps of your system. The price is up there on this unit bust the performance is spectacular. Finally, as you sandblast and between sips of Guiness, USE PROTECTIVE BREATHING EQUIPMENT APPROPRIATE FOR SANDBLASTING. If it is good for wearing while doing drywall work, it should be good for sandblasting but read the labels on the devices you might want to use! Also, use hearing protection if you have the shop vac next to you. Ideally you can use a Walkman and its little earplug type earpieces under your hearing protectors so you can listen to the Grateful Dead as you blast away. Good luck with your new unit and try to imagine how life was before you had it!


    Message 24


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    Time: 10:35:21 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: I added this too
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Jim et al, I forgot to add this as the second to last paragraph: Jim Markle has posted ten pictures of his box on a website for viewing: http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b3322ee6e4b7 thanks. Chris


    Message 25


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    Time: 10:50:24 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: Ron skip and John
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Ron butcher, Skip Gadd, and John Dilatush, I am working this evening on finishing up the end of the sandblaster articles and putting all the drawings in useable format for your use. Please bear with me. I will have the stuff in the mail by next monday. Thanks for your patience. Chris


    Message 26


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    Time: 11:31:20 PM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Question about Gross Weight
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> I have a formula for " minimum safe horsepower" around here somewhere. I believe it's based on the minimum hp that will provide a climb of 300 ft/min. The ford A hp comes out right at that figure. So my assumption has been that the power available was the original bases for Bernards choice of gross weight. Now that we have more powerful engines in use the gross wt can be optimized for other parameters, with safety in mind, of course. As Jack has pointed out we must be carefull in our assumptions. One question is how come the new plans come with a 3/4" spar when the original was 1"? Who determined that this is safe? Who performed the necessary calculations? Where can we see these and what design load was used? What are the permissable G loads with this spar? The answers are important to us now that we have overcome the original power limitations. Clif. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Question about Gross Weight > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <jackphillips@earthlink.net> > > Jon, > > Chris is right, up to a point. The gross weight is basically set by some > structural parameter in the aircraft, usually the wing spar or the landing > gear. You hear of a plane being stressed to +/- 10 G's, well that means > the structure can handle a certain limit load, and depending on how many G's > the designer wants the plane to be good for, he divides the limit load by > that number of G's and voila - the gross weight pops out! > > When I was a young engineer just out of college and was working for General > Dynamics on the F-16 initial design (sad that a plane designed in 1975 is > still one of our front line fighters), the initial gross weight of the plane > was 23,000 lbs. (which meant it could go supersonic straight up with its > 25,000 lb. thrust engine). Later, some mods to the landing gear enabled it > to takeoff with more fuel on board in external tanks and the takeoff gross > weight was increased to 37,000 lbs, but its maneuvering gross weight was > still 23,000. > > In other words, the gross weight is somewhat arbitrary. However, be aware > that stall speed is a variable and goes up with gross weight. It is quite > possible with a robust structured airplane to have a gross weight that is > structurally safe but simply can't fly because the stall speed is too high. > > For my Pietenpol, I've figured on a gross weight of around 1100 lbs. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian > Bobka > Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:36 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Question about Gross Weight > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > Jon, > > For an experimental, it is whatever you want it to be. Believe it or not. > You set the rules. No kidding. > > Chris Bobka > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jon > Botsford > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about Gross Weight > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jon Botsford" <botsford7@hot.rr.com> > > Can someone on this list tell me how the Gross Weight is calculated for an > aircraft? > > Jon Botsford > >




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