Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Thu 02/06/03


Total Messages Posted: 30



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:14 AM - spars+ G (clif)
     2. 12:18 AM - Re: I discoverd something (clif)
     3. 12:48 AM - Re: Airfoil (clif)
     4. 01:32 AM - Re: I discoverd something (clif)
     5. 03:12 AM - Re: Airfoil (Ken & Lisa Rickards)
     6. 05:16 AM - Re: question on dihedral (Michael D Cuy)
     7. 06:03 AM - metal spars/wood ribs (Oscar Zuniga)
     8. 06:12 AM - negative g's in a Piet (Michael D Cuy)
     9. 06:48 AM - Dihedral, Structural analysis, aluminum spars (LAWRENCE WILLIAMS)
    10. 07:23 AM - Re: Airfoil (DJ Vegh)
    11. 07:51 AM - Re: Airfoil (Ken Rickards)
    12. 07:51 AM - Re: Airfoil (craigwilcox@peoplepc.com)
    13. 08:05 AM - Re: I discoverd something (Waytogopiet@aol.com)
    14. 08:06 AM - Wing tanks (Barry Davis)
    15. 08:27 AM - Re: question on dihedral (John Hofmann)
    16. 08:29 AM - Airfoil (Doc Mosher)
    17. 09:03 AM - Re: spars (Gary Gower)
    18. 09:19 AM - Re: Wing tanks (Gdascomb@aol.com)
    19. 09:22 AM - Re: Airfoil (DJ Vegh)
    20. 11:01 AM - Re: Airfoil (Cy Galley)
    21. 01:09 PM - Re: Airfoil (Isablcorky@aol.com)
    22. 01:27 PM - Re: Wing tanks (Carl Loar)
    23. 01:40 PM - FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!! (Sombre Records)
    24. 04:28 PM - Re: F*CK Y*U!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!! (dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle))
    25. 04:28 PM - Re: metal spars/wood ribs (Kip & Beth Gardner)
    26. 04:38 PM - Re: Wing tanks (Kip & Beth Gardner)
    27. 04:49 PM - Re: F*CK Y*U!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!! (Isablcorky@aol.com)
    28. 06:17 PM - Re: I discoverd something (Christian Bobka)
    29. 08:10 PM - Panel overlays (Ted Brousseau)
    30. 11:40 PM - Re: blast it (Pete Gavin)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:14:15 AM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: spars+ G
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> From U.S. Forestry lab, 1944, at 12% moisture; Spruce--6700lb/sq inch tensile. 4500lb/sq inch compression. I think later testing was done at 11% or lower moisture which results in higher strengths. In a spar like the Piet's the bending forces are equal top and bottom. Forces are 0 at the center, known as the " neutral axis " Forces are maximum at the outer edges ( top and bottom faces) Since forces are equal, top and bottom, then the weaker strength is the deciding factor as to when the spar will fail. Since the top of the spar is in compression, it will fail first. In fancier aircraft the top area has been made beefier than the bottom. you'll see cantilever aircraft with high pos and low neg G capability. Even the likes of AT-6's with 5.67 G pos and 2.33 G neg ( from flight handbook AN 01-60FFB-1 ).All in the name of weight saving.( and cost ) The 1" piet spar is routed to leave 1" X 5/8" full size at the outer edges but with the use of higher HP engines of lower weight than the Ford, The weight saving isn't critical and the spar will be a little stronger if left unrouted as the strength in wood, from neutral axis out, increases parabolicly, not in a straight line as it is in metal. Am I all wet, partialy wet, or reasonably dry ?? Clif


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:18:11 AM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: I discoverd something
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> Personal experience??? do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: <TomTravis@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: TomTravis@aol.com > > An easy way to remember it is that the word, "catheter" is definitely > negative. Even I can remember that. > > > > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:48:03 AM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> Piet isn't a Clark at all. It's very close to the Eiffel used on the Jenny. Bernard and his friend Orrin drew it up one night out of their heads as the story goes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> > > It's the same basic airfoil as the Piet, a Clark "Y", uses 1"spars, front & > rear. > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 01:32:30 AM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: I discoverd something
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> Anhedral is the usage for downward angled wings in all my " From the Ground Up " groundschool manuals all the way back to my first one in 62. As far back as I can remember it's been " anhedral " in everything I've read. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> > > I thought is was anhedral. When I spell check it, the correction comes up > "cathedral." Anhedral is what Burt Rutan called it on my Vari Eze. > Cy Galley > Editor, EAA Safety Programs > cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > To: "pietenpol" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > <bobka@charter.net> > > > > While researching dihedral I learned that the word meaning "negative > > dihedral" is the word "cathedral". I never could remember whether a > cathode > > was negative or positive. Now I will remember a Cathode is negative... > > > > chris bobka > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:12:27 AM PST US
    From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca>
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> thanks, clif, I have obviously been misled somewhere down the line. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "clif" <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> > > Piet isn't a Clark at all. It's very close to the Eiffel > used on the Jenny. Bernard and his friend Orrin > drew it up one night out of their heads as the story goes. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" > <KL0914@cogeco.ca> > > > > It's the same basic airfoil as the Piet, a Clark "Y", uses 1"spars, front > & > > rear. > > > > > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:16:18 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: question on dihedral
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Henry-- I have flown Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy and it has a flat, zero dihedral wing and then mine which has about 1.5" at the wing tips. There is very little difference that I can tell in smooth air, however I believe that a touch of dihedral helps when both of your hands are busy folding a chart or peeing in the bottle (trust me, it beats wasting a 45 minute stop when going x-country in a Piet) since you just rudder the airplane with your feet to keep wings level and pointed where you want. Like the balsa rubberband flyers we all played with when we were kids, they put a bunch of dihedral into those for a reason. Try modifying one of those rubber jobs with zero dihedral and give it a test flight. You'll see a short flight. Mike C. PS---have flown Joe Leonard's GN-1 which has dihedral too.....very, very nice flying machine. Heavy, but nice.


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:03:01 AM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: metal spars/wood ribs
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> The prez of the local EAA Chapter 35 is completing a Breezy that he and another partner bought as a project. It has metal spars and wood ribs, and has turned out to be a real bear to work with because of fitting the ribs around the shape of the spar. Unless you work out a clever and easy way to secure the ribs to the spars, it can be a lot of fussy work. And Bert asks- "what's a hedral, anyway?" I'm disappointed that no one popped up with, "it's the matching half of a shedral" ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:12:06 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: negative g's in a Piet
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > >Jack P. wrote this: with the simple stress analysis I did, I found that >without Jury >struts, the lift struts could buckle under as little as 1.0 negative G's, >which can be produced by strong turbulence. Jury struts are absolutely >necessary. And there is NO doubt in my mind that I (and you will) hit 1.0 negative G's MANY times en route to Oshkosh from Ohio and going to local fly-in's with the Piet. On hot summer days when you transition over dark wooded areas and open tan-colored farmland there are some real shear forces going on that can literally jolt a map or pencil right out of your hand and out of the cockpit. When flying side-by-side a more stable airplane like a J-3 or C-150 I am amazed at how they appear to be taking the turbulence so much better than me in the Piet. It's true. Nice to know the jury struts are out there. When Bernie built his Piets they used streamlined tubing that had internal stiffening webs which kept the struts from collapsing........now days they do not make strut material with internal webbing so Jack is right on-----Jury struts are an absolute requirement on a Pietenpol. Mike C.


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:48:29 AM PST US
    From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com>
    Subject: Dihedral, Structural analysis, aluminum spars
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com> 1. I have looked at my zero degree dihedral (or would it be anhedral? Who really cares?) Piet from all angles and at various pictures and videos. I can't detect the dreaded "droopy wing" look in any of them. Oh yeah, it seems to fly just fine. 2. structural analysis for Piets...................yawn. 3. There IS a Piet under construction right now with aluminum spars, wooden ribs, and some kevlar laminate and aluminum honeycomb in the control surfaces. It'll have a steel tube fuselage and water-cooled straight four engine on the 100 hp range. Larry


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:23:10 AM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> ummm... not true... the GN-1 has the same airfoil as the Piet, with the exception of a slightly more blunt leading edge. The GN-1 and Piet's are not Clark Y. Bernie called it a FC-10. why?? he used a French Curve to draw it and it took him about 10 minutes.... I forget where I read that but thought it comical.... DJ Vegh N74DV www.raptoronline.com Mesa, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> > > It's the same basic airfoil as the Piet, a Clark "Y", uses 1"spars, front & > rear. > > > Ken > > GN1 2992 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Isablcorky@aol.com> > To: <pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com > > > > Pieters, > > Would some GNer please tell me what kind of airfoil the GN plan calls for. > > Thanks > > Corky in La > > > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:51:29 AM PST US
    From: Ken Rickards <krickards@cvci.com>
    Subject: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Rickards <krickards@cvci.com> Thanks for the information D.J. I knew the airfoils were the same, I just remember someone telling me that it was a modified Clark y. Was the design based on the Clark or the Eiffel? Ken GN1 2992 -----Original Message----- From: DJ Vegh [mailto:aircamper@imagedv.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> ummm... not true... the GN-1 has the same airfoil as the Piet, with the exception of a slightly more blunt leading edge. The GN-1 and Piet's are not Clark Y. Bernie called it a FC-10. why?? he used a French Curve to draw it and it took him about 10 minutes.... I forget where I read that but thought it comical.... DJ Vegh N74DV www.raptoronline.com Mesa, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> > > It's the same basic airfoil as the Piet, a Clark "Y", uses 1"spars, front & > rear. > > > Ken > > GN1 2992 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Isablcorky@aol.com> > To: <pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com > > > > Pieters, > > Would some GNer please tell me what kind of airfoil the GN plan calls for. > > Thanks > > Corky in La > > > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:51:38 AM PST US
    From: craigwilcox@peoplepc.com
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: craigwilcox@peoplepc.com Clark Y is a flat-bottomed airfoil, Piets and GN's use an undercamber. DJ has it right almost - it was made with a #10 French curve. Works well, don't it? PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:05:09 AM PST US
    From: Waytogopiet@aol.com
    Subject: Re: I discoverd something
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Waytogopiet@aol.com TOUCHE !!


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:06:10 AM PST US
    From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Wing tanks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> Does anyone have a sketch on how to build wing tanks for the piet?, or where can I find the information? Barry Davis


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:27:41 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: question on dihedral
    From: John Hofmann <jhofmann@charter.net>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann <jhofmann@charter.net> Hey Mikey! Remind me to tell you sometime of when I was 17 on a solo cross country (after drinking a half-gallon of root beer on a hot day while pre-flighting). In my infinite wisdom, I decided to try and pee out the side window of a 172. The radios did work after they dried out...... Best told around a campfire maybe sometime this summer. Do not archive. -john- > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > Henry-- I have flown Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy and it has a flat, zero > dihedral wing and then mine > which has about 1.5" at the wing tips. There is very little difference > that I can tell in smooth air, however > I believe that a touch of dihedral helps when both of your hands are busy > folding a chart or peeing in the bottle > (trust me, it beats wasting a 45 minute stop when going x-country in a > Piet) since you just rudder the airplane > with your feet to keep wings level and pointed where you want. Like the > balsa rubberband flyers we all played with > when we were kids, they put a bunch of dihedral into those for a > reason. Try modifying one of those rubber jobs > with zero dihedral and give it a test flight. You'll see a short flight. > > Mike C. > > PS---have flown Joe Leonard's GN-1 which has dihedral too.....very, very > nice flying machine. Heavy, but nice. > > > > > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:29:22 AM PST US
    From: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net>
    Subject: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net> I hope this does not lead to even more confusion. John Grega, in an article in Sport Aviation a number of years ago, said he was attempting to "simplify" the building of the Pietenpol. He did that, to a large extent. In the process, he advocated the use of Cub wings and landing gear, which were in good supply at the time. So some Gregas are, perhaps, still flying on Cub wings, which do use the Clark Y airfoil. Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:03:57 AM PST US
    From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: spars
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> Take a look to a Kitfox wing, well, not exactly the same, but they use aluminum tube spars with plywood ribs, they use something like "JB Weld" in gray color, (like a putty) to join the ribs to the tubes. With a little research you can find out what is it... Looks real solid to me. Saludos Gary Gower --- Ed Grentzer <flyboy_120@hotmail.com> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed Grentzer" > <flyboy_120@hotmail.com> > > > Thanks Dan...So it is feasable to use aluminum spars with wood > ribs. > The Carlson's spar I was looking at is 4 1/2" X .812" (across the > flanges) X 14 ft.6061T aluminum flanged I beam affair for $86.00 > each plus shipping....didn't sound too bad...Lets see Mikes > termites > eat that sucker!!! Anyone know the best way to fasten ribs to > them??? I don't think it would be a good idea to drill the > flanges?? > but then the aluminum ribs must be riveted to the flanges. Or are > they?? Still just curious. Ed > > > >From: ZigoDan@aol.com > >Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: spars > >Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:44:01 EST > > > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > > > >Wag Aero sells a cub replica kit. You can buy the wing kit one of > three > >ways, all wood, all aluminum, or aluminum with wood ribs. Now I > sure don't > >if any piets have been built using this technique, but it does seem > >possible. > > Buy the way a couple years ago AS sold the extruded spars blanks > for > >about > >$100.00 $150.00 each. > > > >Dan > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:19:39 AM PST US
    From: Gdascomb@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Wing tanks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gdascomb@aol.com Barry: It's not exactly a sketch, but try: <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Keri-Anns_Pietenpol.html"> http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Keri-Anns_Pietenpol.html George


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:22:10 AM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> ahhhh yes.... I forgot abou that...the early GN-1's did use a host of J-3 parts including wings... but, the plans (since the early 70's) show the Piet airfoil... DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Doc Mosher To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net> I hope this does not lead to even more confusion. John Grega, in an article in Sport Aviation a number of years ago, said he was attempting to "simplify" the building of the Pietenpol. He did that, to a large extent. In the process, he advocated the use of Cub wings and landing gear, which were in good supply at the time. So some Gregas are, perhaps, still flying on Cub wings, which do use the Clark Y airfoil. Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 20


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    Time: 11:01:47 AM PST US
    From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> Sorry Doc, Cub's use a USA 35B airfoil not a Clark Y Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com We support Aeroncas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Mosher" <docshop@tds.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net> > > I hope this does not lead to even more confusion. John Grega, in an > article in Sport Aviation a number of years ago, said he was attempting to > "simplify" the building of the Pietenpol. He did that, to a large > extent. In the process, he advocated the use of Cub wings and landing > gear, which were in good supply at the time. So some Gregas are, perhaps, > still flying on Cub wings, which do use the Clark Y airfoil. > > Doc Mosher > Oshkosh USA > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:09:41 PM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Airfoil
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Experts, Granted that for several reasons the Piet has very little float after flair. Question: Would this airfoil of the Cub perhaps extend the float of a Piet somewhat. It WAS designed several years after the Piet and maybe, just maybe, some progress could be identified. Just wondering without using my can opener again. An old southern boy just whittlin and dreamin


    Message 22


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    Time: 01:27:27 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing tanks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net> Barry,, The Tony Bingelis "Sport plane construction techniques"book, it's the yellow one, has some great examples of fiberglass tanks. Plus a lot of other good things in there as well. I used his technique, measured the center section and went from there. If you go with the center wing tank, remember to take the bolt heads into concideration when measuring. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing tanks > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> > > Does anyone have a sketch on how to build wing tanks for the piet?, or where can I find the information? > Barry Davis > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 01:40:18 PM PST US
    From: "Sombre Records" <sombrerecords@arcor.de>
    Subject: FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sombre Records" <sombrerecords@arcor.de> ----- Original Message ----- From: <Isablcorky@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com > > Experts, > Granted that for several reasons the Piet has very little float after flair. > Question: Would this airfoil of the Cub perhaps extend the float of a Piet > somewhat. It WAS designed several years after the Piet and maybe, just maybe, > some progress could be identified. Just wondering without using my can opener > again. > > An old southern boy just whittlin and dreamin > >


    Message 24


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    Time: 04:28:03 PM PST US
    From: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
    "Pietenpol-List: FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!" (Feb 6, 1:53pm)
    Subject: Re: F*CK Y*U!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) Well, I'm not sure what this guy's problem is, but rest assured I have removed him from the List. Sheeze, sorry people. Matt Dralle List Admin >-------------- >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sombre Records" <sombrerecords@arcor.de> > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <Isablcorky@aol.com> >To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airfoil > > >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com >> >> Experts, >> Granted that for several reasons the Piet has very little float after >flair. >> Question: Would this airfoil of the Cub perhaps extend the float of a Piet >> somewhat. It WAS designed several years after the Piet and maybe, just >maybe, >> some progress could be identified. Just wondering without using my can >opener >> again. >> >> An old southern boy just whittlin and dreamin >-------------- -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


    Message 25


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    Time: 04:28:33 PM PST US
    From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: metal spars/wood ribs
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> At 9:02 AM -0500 02/06/03, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> > >The prez of the local EAA Chapter 35 is completing a Breezy that he and >another partner bought as a project. It has metal spars and wood ribs, and >has turned out to be a real bear to work with because of fitting the ribs >around the shape of the spar. Unless you work out a clever and easy way to >secure the ribs to the spars, it can be a lot of fussy work. > >And Bert asks- "what's a hedral, anyway?" I'm disappointed that no one >popped up with, "it's the matching half of a shedral" ;o) > >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net These kind of discussions always prompt me to ask my 2 perennial favorites: In what frame of mind would a 'gruntled' Postal Worker be? and What is the plural of 'spouse'? Cheers ;O) Kip Gardner DO NOT ARCHIVE North Canton, OH


    Message 26


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    Time: 04:38:54 PM PST US
    From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Wing tanks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> At 11:05 AM -0500 02/06/03, Barry Davis wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> > >Does anyone have a sketch on how to build wing tanks for the piet?, or >where can I find the information? >Barry Davis Barry, This topic was covered, perhaps more than once, in the 'old' BPA newsletter. A number of us have complete sets that someone on the list (I think it was Mike Bell in SC) compiled & sold for the cost of reproduction several years ago. I also think one of these articles was reprinted in the 'new' BPA newsletter in the past year or so. My 'old' newsletters are still all packed somewhere from my move, but I'll check my collection of 'new' ones in the next day or so. If I find it, I'd be happy to run a copy for you. Regards, Kip Gardner North Canton, OH


    Message 27


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    Time: 04:49:17 PM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: F*CK Y*U!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAIL VIKTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Thanks Matt, We really ought to try and identify the SOB and take him for a ride. CMC


    Message 28


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    Time: 06:17:56 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: I discoverd something
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Hedral is two surfaces intersecting. Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bert Conoly Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net> Then why wouldn't "anhedral" mean "no hedral"? ;>) Whats a hedral, anyway? Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > > DJ, > > The prefixes A or AN mean "without" so anhedral is no dihedral and no > cathedral. Atheist meaning without God and anonymous meaning without name. > > Chris Bobka > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> > > hmmm I've always known it as "anhedral" > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > www.raptoronline.com > Mesa, AZ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> > To: "pietenpol" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: I discoverd something > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > <bobka@charter.net> > > > > While researching dihedral I learned that the word meaning "negative > > dihedral" is the word "cathedral". I never could remember whether a > cathode > > was negative or positive. Now I will remember a Cathode is negative... > > > > chris bobka > > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by > Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more > information on an anti-virus email solution, visit > <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. > >


    Message 29


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    Time: 08:10:26 PM PST US
    From: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net>
    Subject: Panel overlays
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net> I have a question about instrument panel overlays. I like the looks of Mike Cuy's wood raised panel for the center cluster. My question is what is it made from? Solid wood or plywood? If it is thin solid wood is there a backing to keep it from warping? How are the instruments attached? to the base 1/8" ply underneath or to the raised panel? How is the raised panel attached? With screws from behind? Or bolts all the way through? So many details. So little time. Thanks, Ted Brousseau Beautiful flying weather in FL but making sawdust instead.


    Message 30


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    Time: 11:40:12 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Gavin" <petegavin@mn.rr.com>
    "'pietenpol'" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>, "'Jim Skidmore'" <jimskid@hotmail.com>, "'Jim Markle'" <Jim.Markle@primus.com>, "'Ron Oehler'" <r.oehler@attbi.com>, "'Peter Denny'" <peter.denny@mpls.k12.mn.us>, "'Pat Halligan'" <pkhflying@aol.com>, "'Mike Dolan'" <iamtopgun@voyager.net>, "'Jeff Coffey'" <coffey@crc-inc.com>, "'Greg Cardinal'" <gcardinal@startribune.com>, "'Frankh'" <frankhanish@cs.com>, "'Ed Hansen'" <DnEHansen@aol.com>, "'David Kujawa'" <dkujawa@cox.net>, "'Dan Carroll'" <ecarroll@cpinternet.com>, "'Ron Hoyt'" <rrhoyt@ieee.org>
    Subject: RE: blast it
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Pete Gavin" <petegavin@mn.rr.com> Hi Chris - Just got back late tonight from a 4-day business trip to Richmond VA, so just got your note. Your article is great! You're welcome to stop over at the house most anytime this weekend with whatever additional material you have - I assume you mean the diagrams? Just call first so I can be sure to be here. By the way, I really appreciate your getting this together for this issue - kind of lean on material this month. Had a flight back through Detroit on NWA. Sat on the ramp in a 757 for an hour or so. The problem was very interesting. I don't understand how this stuff is supposed to work, but as I remember it, the aircraft was not accepting the "external power" needed to start the engines. Apparently the normal "auxiliary power" used to do this was not working. Each time they would attempt to connect "external power" we would lose normal lights/air fans etc. and would go to emer. lighting. After a dozen or so of these attempts, some of the passengers were getting upset and one man asked to be allowed off the aircraft. Eventually they allowed those who wanted to leave to do that. Then they decided to try "battery power" instead of "external power" in order to start the engine(s) - in this mode, most of the emergency lights went off while they got the engines rev'd up and started with battery power. Once the engine(s) got up to speed, the normal lights/fans etc. came on and everything was cool. But apparently this abnormal approach left the computer systems confused, because they had to shut down an engine and clear out the status indicators and start over. Anyhow, after an hour or so of this everything was cool and we took off. I really felt bad for the crew - they were doing their best and really could not predict when things would be ready. Some people get so demanding in a situation like this. I was engrossed in a John Grisham book so did not notice the time passing. -----Original Message----- From: Christian Bobka [mailto:bobka@charter.net] Gavin; Pat Halligan; Mike Dolan; Jeff Coffey; Greg Cardinal; Frankh; Ed Hansen; David Kujawa; Dan Carroll; Chris Bobka; Ron Hoyt Subject: blast it Pete, Here it is. An attachment will come as well. I have pictures here at home to personally deliver on tuesday evening. Chris BLAST IT! Part VIII by Chris Bobka This series was discontinued after the seventh installment when son number two began to walk! That also coincided with David Kujawa leaving the chapter newsletter editorship and taking over editorship of Sport Aerobatics magazine and moving away to Arizona with his lovely wife, Diane. Instead of looking forward to dropping off articles at David and Diane's and sharing a few beers, I was frought with fear at having to bring articles to ugly Pete and Bob. I hope you can find me some forgiveness for leaving you all hanging. So sorry. Much prodding on the part of Pete, Greg, Frankh, and others from the Pietenpol chat group has gotten me back to finishing off the series with this final installment. We left off with the gauntlets ready for installation to the front of the box. I have included Figures 11 and 12 which show a cutting diagram for the gauntlet and what the finished gauntlet should look like. As shown in Figure 12, cut some darts into the big end of the gauntlet to help it lay flat as shown in Figure 13. Put some caulk around the left opening in the box and, using a heavy duty stapler, shoot some 1/4" staples into the box around the circumference of the glove to hold it in place. Don't do what Norm did so make sure you use the left handed gauntlet in the left hole of the box and make sure you orient the thumb so that it is at about the 12 o'clock position. If you put the wrong gauntlet on that hole, you will have to stand on the cieling in order to sandblast. Like Norm. Put more of the caulk on top of the gauntlet and then take one of the rings from Figure 3 and and use enough 1-1/4" drywall screws to hold the gauntlet in place. You can clean up any of the squeezed out caulk at this time. Install the other glove. Thumbs up! Next we need to install the door. You cut out the door opening in Figure 4 and at that time, I instructed you to save the cut out piece. Go get it. Have an assistant hold the cut out piece in the door opening. Take two old door hinges from the junk box and mark off the screw positions on the door and on the frame to the rear of the door. Ensure that the hinge pins lie directly over the cut line and the hinge lines are in line with each other. Now take the door piece and lay it onto another piece of plywood that is bigger than it. Mark off the same general shape but about 1-1/2 inches all the way around it EXCEPT for the rear edge. This mark off should be even with the rear edge of the door so the door can swing open. What we are making here is a piece of plywood that will overlap the door jamb so as to contain the direct blast of the sand. With your radial saw, cut out the new piece. As the hinges on the door must lay in the same plane as the box, it will be necessary to make cutouts to allow this new piece to clear the door. Cut these out with a sabre saw. The top and side views of Figure 14 clearly show this. You may design a better way and I know that there are better ways but this is the way I did it. Go for it! Make the latch as shown in Figure 14 from some scrap plywood. Attach the door and latch to the box. If you want, you can get some felt weatherstripping about 1/8" thick and 1/2-3/4" wide and put it around the door jamb as indicated to help contain some of the sand. An 1/8" looks thick but it will compress right down. Well that is it. The box is done. Now we have to come up with the gun. You want a good one. The reason is that the gun uses air that passes through a venturi in the gun to create suction which pulls the sand up from the hopper, through the feed tube, and through the venturi itself, accelerating the sand along the way. At the venturi, the sand makes a sharp turn before it exits the nozzle. My dad, the physicist, says that force times mass equals impact. We want impact as that is what does the sandblasting. Mass is related to the the size and density of the particle. Force is the effectiveness of the gun at accelerating the particle. Every particle of sand that comes out of the gun also is trying to wear down the venturi of the gun. A cheap ceramic nozzle coupled with a soft steel venturi will not last long as the sand will abrade it right down and the venturi will no longer be properly shaped to create a quality vacuum (if a vacuum sucks, is it good or bad?). Lots of air will come out of the nozzle but no abrasive. Then you will blame me that the sandblaster does not work. We need space age materials. We need titanium. We need carbide. So I will tell you what gun to get. It is shown in Figure 15. It is available at Grainger, among other places, and can be found on the internet as of February 2003 at: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/catalogpageview.jsp?xi=xi&CatPage=1427 You want model 3JT01 for the 12 CFM model. It lists for a wopping 77 dollars but buddy Jim Markle at jim_markle@mindspring.com has agreed to purchase these guns from Grainger at his substantial discount and have them drop shipped to interested buyers. The best thing is that parts are available too as listed on the same web page. The gun does not have a trigger. You do not want a gun with a trigger. A gun with a trigger takes up too much room and your finger gets tired holding the trigger. Instead of a trigger, I merely connect and disconnect a Milton coupling right at the aft end of the gun. You could get fancy and use a foot pedal air switch or you could put a valve at the point where the air line goes into the box. Use what you think you would like. Once you have your gun, attach it to the end of the pickup tube inside the box with an appropriate length of 5/8" ID cheap clear vinyl tubing from the big rack of tubing at Home Depot that I told you to get earlier. Use some hose clamps to hold the hose on at both ends. Drill the smallest size hole you can get away with to let the air line into the box. It should be located near where the pickup tube is located so that both hoses can flop around more or less together. You need a vacuum cleaner of the big shop vac variety. This is a necessity as you are creating a mammoth sandstorm inside the box. Without a shop vac, it will be so cloudy inside the box after a minute that you won't be able to see your hand in front of your face. You are pumping air into the box at 100 PSI and at 11-15 Cubic Feet per Minute. All the air has to go somewhere. If there is no shop vac then this air will blow out through every seam and put dust all over the garage and make a big mess. It will also go into your lungs and you will contract silicosis and die a horrible slow death. The key is to create a negative pressure inside the box so that the dust is trapped by the filter of the shop vac. Better yet, use an extra long vacuum hose and put the shop vac outside as even the filter on the shop vac won't trap all the fines. Their are endless varieties of abrasives to use. I use number five white silica sand. You can remember number five as that is how many fingers you should have on one of your hands. It is the same stuff that you see in sand filled ashtrays next to the door to elevators in office buildings. Many sandblasting supply outfits are reluctant to sell you sand for sandblasting beacuse they are afraid you will not be using proper breathing protection and they will be sued by your hiers after you die of silicosis. If you tell them it is for ashtrays, then they will chum right up and gladly sell it to you. It will come in 50 or 100 lb sacks. 100 lbs should do for starters. Dick Navratril, a Pietenpol builder here in the Twin Cities area (horzpool@goldengate.net), says you could also try a larger swimming pool dealer to get sand. In his swimming pool supply shop, he carries red flint granite sand sized at .45-.55 mm. It is rather aggressive but doesn't dust nearly as much as white silica sands. Some may try to use glass beads or walnut shells. It all depends upon the finish you wish, the aggressiveness of the cleaning, and the price you are willing to pay. You may consider building more than one sandblasting box. Each can have a different abrasive. It is difficult to change abrasives from big to little for the following reason: you will probably never get all the big stuff out. What will happen is that you will make a change from big particles to little particles. You will think you have it licked and you will be blasting away looking at the fine, uniform finish on your blasted piece. Just as the ten millionth particle comes out of the nozzle, a stray big particle will come out, and whamo! there appears what will looks like a huge crater in your work as that single particle hits. It may not bother you and it may not matter based on the part you are blasting but sometime it may matter. Again, the choice is yours. Once my new hangar is done, it will sport a couple of blasting boxes each with a different abrasive. Additonal abrasives management discussion is outside the scope of this article. I am sure that industrious users of their new blast cabinet will seek out information on http://www.google.com for more information. A few tips on use are in order. All the debris you blast off of the pieces you are sandblasting will fall down into the sand. Eventually, they will migrate to the bottom of the hopper as it becomes their "turn" to be sucked into the pickup tube. Large pieces of debris will clog the venturi of the gun. The short term fix is to hold your free hand over the discharge nozzle of the gun, forcing the compressed air down the hose abrasive supply hose and the pickup tube and blowing all the junk out. This will work for a while but sooner or later you will have to empty the abrasive out the bottom of the hopper and sift it. I use a big sifter from the cookingware aisle of the supermarket that looks like a bowl made out of screening. This is the long term fix. Use a pair of pliers kept in the box to hold small parts so you are not always blasting away at the fingertips of your gloves as you hold parts. The box makes for really good storage of parts that must be kept rust free. The large quantity of sand acts as a dessicant to keep the air in the box dry. You can also experiment with different air pressures. 50-60 PSI works good for most work. It is hard for many air compressors to keep this up at 12 CFM so from time to time you need to give the air compressor a chance to catch up. Also, most air compressors have a duty cycle which means that it is expected that a certain percentage of the time, the air compressor should be off and resting. It cools when it rests. You may consider a supplemental fan blowing on your air compressor to keep it cool. Do not take stuff out of the blaster unless you have gloves on. The pros say to use surgical gloves. Oils and acids from your skin will cause the part to rust, even under paint. As stressed in the beginning of this series of articles, moisture is the bane of all sandblasters. you must have adequate moisture control in your system. The ideal air supply system uses many feet of metal, not plastic or rubber, air line between the compressor and the sandblaster. The metal absorbs the heat from the compressed air. As the compressed air cools, the water in it will condense out and deposit, in the form of water droplets, onto the inside surface of the cool pipe. As the air passes through the pipe it will roll these droplets along until they hit a moisture trap that will inertially snag them and keep them from traveling further. It is important to note that moisture traps trap water droplets, not water vapor. Putting a mositure trap at the compressor outlet will not do much good since the air will carry mostly vapor here as the air is so hot. The best "final" moisture trap I know of is the 1/2" coalescing air filter as illustrated in Figure 16 and sold by Tip Sandblasting at 1-800-321-9260. It uses a roll of toilet paper inside the unit to absorb all remaining mositure after the air has traveled through the standard inertial moisture traps of your system. The price is up there on this unit bust the performance is spectacular. Finally, as you sandblast and between sips of Guiness, USE PROTECTIVE BREATHING EQUIPMENT APPROPRIATE FOR SANDBLASTING. If it is good for wearing while doing drywall work, it should be good for sandblasting but read the labels on the devices you might want to use! Also, use hearing protection if you have the shop vac next to you. Ideally you can use a Walkman and its little earplug type earpieces under your hearing protectors so you can listen to the Grateful Dead as you blast away. Good luck with your new unit and try to imagine how life was before you had it!




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