---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/21/03: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:50 AM - Re: Firewall shaping (clif) 2. 03:03 AM - Windshield (Jack Phillips) 3. 05:23 AM - Re: 1932 Flying & Glider Manual (Ken Rickards) 4. 08:01 AM - Re: Firewall shaping (Jon Botsford) 5. 08:41 AM - DJ's turtle deck const. pics (Michael D Cuy) 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Winter Relief (Gadd, Skip) 7. 12:28 PM - Re: Firewall shaping (Gary Gower) 8. 12:50 PM - Re: Windshield (walter evans) 9. 01:14 PM - another windshield Q (Richard Navratril) 10. 01:36 PM - Re: another windshield Q (Kent Hallsten) 11. 02:08 PM - Result of Pietenpol-List archive search for "Lexan"......: another windshield Q (Jim Markle) 12. 02:17 PM - Re: another windshield Q (del magsam) 13. 02:19 PM - Re: Firewall shaping (ZigoDan@aol.com) 14. 02:22 PM - Re: another windshield Q (ZigoDan@aol.com) 15. 02:50 PM - do the nozzles shut off automatically?? (walter evans) 16. 05:15 PM - Re: Firewall shaping (Gary Gower) 17. 05:43 PM - Re: Windshield (Jim Malley) 18. 05:44 PM - Re: help needed in Oklahoma (off-topic) (Doug413@aol.com) 19. 06:01 PM - Re: Windshield (Isablcorky@aol.com) 20. 06:39 PM - Re: Windshield (Jack Phillips) 21. 06:48 PM - Re: another windshield Q (Jack Phillips) 22. 08:01 PM - Re: Windshield (ZigoDan@aol.com) 23. 08:07 PM - Re: another windshield Q (ZigoDan@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:15 AM PST US From: clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif Why not make your own shrinker/stretcher? 3 pieces 1" x 1/8" steel 10" long and a 1/4" bolt. I found this on the net but can't find it again now. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > > Walt, > > Sounds right, I just couldn't figure out how to spell "shinker", so I looked > it up in a Wag Aero catalog and it said stretcher. > > PS these guys talking about Tony Bingels way must have never seen the nice > job a shinker will do. However I do realize the tool is expensive, and > hacksaws, and drills are not making Tony's way a little more feasible for > most. > > Dan > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:25 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Here's a question for the colleective wisdom of this group. I'm about to make the windshields for my Pietenpol (the last task before beginning to cover it!). I'm making the flat style three piece windshield rather than the curved type. Does anyone know what the typical design parameters are for windshields? Should they come up as high as the pilot's eyes, or even with the top of the pilot's head? I believe the old Wacos reduced the windblast effect somewhat by sloping the front windshield pretty severely, but that is not really an option with a Pietenpol due to the roll wires between the front cabane struts. How tall have other folks made their windshields, and are they happy with the results? Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:11 AM PST US From: Ken Rickards Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: 1932 Flying & Glider Manual --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Rickards Thanks Graham, As you say, Westy may have had a hand in the article, he is mentioned a couple of times. Ken, DO NOT ARCHIVE In cold Stoney Creek Ontario, (waiting for the next big snow tomorrow) GN1 2992 -----Original Message----- From: Graham Hansen [mailto:grhans@cable-lynx.net] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 1932 Flying & Glider Manual --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" Ken, Clotilde, as Gary says, is a girl's name. It has no aeronautical significance in the F & G Manual article. Although the article is purportedly written by B.H. Pietenpol, I suspect that Weston (Westy) Farmer had a hand in it since the writing style does not seem to be consistent with the speaking style of BHP. (My friend and I visited Bernard on our way home from Oshkosh, August 4, 1982. He had a great sense of humor, in spite having a painful hip, but somehow the text of that article just doesn't sound like him. We will always treasure the memory of that visit with BHP.) Westy Farmer, I believe, was editor of the publication and no doubt would have had input regarding the Pietenpol article. Maybe he knew someone named Clotilde??? DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE Graham---in cold, snowy Alberta, Canada where we expect this sort of winter weather. (I was too dumb to emigrate to a warmer place when I was young!) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:36 AM PST US From: "Jon Botsford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jon Botsford" ----- Original Message ----- From: "clif" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif Why not make your own shrinker/stretcher? 3 pieces 1" x 1/8" steel 10" long and a 1/4" bolt. I found this on the net but can't find it again now. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > > Walt, > > Sounds right, I just couldn't figure out how to spell "shinker", so I looked > it up in a Wag Aero catalog and it said stretcher. > > PS these guys talking about Tony Bingels way must have never seen the nice > job a shinker will do. However I do realize the tool is expensive, and > hacksaws, and drills are not making Tony's way a little more feasible for > most. > > Dan > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:46 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: DJ's turtle deck const. pics --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy For those of you who have not done your turtle deck and stringers----DJ's web site pics show a great sequence of photos that are self-explanatory. Between his workmanship and Jack P. those two are going to go head-to-head for if they ever show up at the same fly-in !!!! Mike C. (do not archive) http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/10-27-02.htm and http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/11-20-02.htm ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:57 AM PST US From: "Gadd, Skip" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Winter Relief --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" John, Great pictures! You did get the ID correct. I would like to see more. Skip, Still working on wheel hubs in atlanta. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann >The yellow Piet is Larry Williams and the Blue one is Dennis Hall's. I think >I got the identification right. I have a few more from this year and last if >anyone cares. Enjoy! >-john- http://www.johnnyskyrocket.com/bh/ Follow the above link for the photos. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:35 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower My brother Larry made on "shrinker" with a cleco tool (we bought 5 CTools with our kits and never use more than 3 at a time). He welding 3 rods aligned, then we file shaped it, it works perfect. Was used to build our Stailess Steel firewall. No cost to build (just the cost of the Cleco Tool. Saludos Gary Gower --- ZigoDan@aol.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > > Walt, > > Sounds right, I just couldn't figure out how to spell "shinker", so I > looked > it up in a Wag Aero catalog and it said stretcher. > > PS these guys talking about Tony Bingels way must have never seen the > nice > job a shinker will do. However I do realize the tool is expensive, > and > hacksaws, and drills are not making Tony's way a little more feasible > for > most. > > Dan > > > > > > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:50 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" I made the curved type from the print. Why not make a cardboard mock-up of that one (I assume you got the print in your plans) and hold it up and see how tall it is. Make the square one just as high. In my three and a half hours on mine , it seems just right. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Windshield > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Here's a question for the colleective wisdom of this group. I'm about to > make the windshields for my Pietenpol (the last task before beginning to > cover it!). I'm making the flat style three piece windshield rather than > the curved type. Does anyone know what the typical design parameters are > for windshields? Should they come up as high as the pilot's eyes, or even > with the top of the pilot's head? I believe the old Wacos reduced the > windblast effect somewhat by sloping the front windshield pretty severely, > but that is not really an option with a Pietenpol due to the roll wires > between the front cabane struts. How tall have other folks made their > windshields, and are they happy with the results? > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:18 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratril" Subject: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" I have already cut my lexan from a template. Now I would like to heat form it. Does anyone have ideas of heating required and methods for bending? I dont have much scrap left to play with. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:20 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q From: "Kent Hallsten" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" > I have already cut my lexan from a template. Now I would > like to heat form it. Does anyone have ideas of heating > required and methods for bending? I dont have much scrap > left to play with. > Dick N. > Dick, I have seen a web site(s) where the builder heats up the plastic in a kitchen oven, low heat I believe. They would have the windshield laying on a mold that had the curved shape they desired. I think the mold had a layer of carpet to help protect the plastic. As the windshield got warm it would drape itself over the mold. Maybe you can do a Google search and come across this, sorry I can't be of more help but it's been a long time since I saw it. I thought it was neat when I saw it, but realized my kitchen oven is a bit too small to pack a windshield into it. Your oven may work, of course. Kent Hallsten Oklahoma City ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:05 PM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Result of Pietenpol-List archive search for "Lexan"......: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" Match: #34 Message: #11342 From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Windshield Framing Material Date: May 21, 2000 If you use a piece of Lexan or equal, you can bend it in a sheet metal brake -- a cardboard template will let you know the shape & size -- 3/32" or 1/8" material should do the job -- use at least a 1 to 2 thickness inside radius so you don't have any cracks on the edges. Plex has to be heated along the bend to be formed that way. Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Navratril" Subject: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" > > I have already cut my lexan from a template. Now I would like to heat form it. Does anyone have ideas of heating required and methods for bending? I dont have much scrap left to play with. > Dick N. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:31 PM PST US From: del magsam Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: del magsam Hi Dick lexan is extremely hard to heat form. but you can cold bend it somewhat. if you want to heat form it, I would buy PETG. It is tough like lexan, forms as easy as acrylic, and is very cheap. you have to keep it covered in hot weather though as it deforms easier. two ways to form it is either drape it over a plug, using hot oil to heat it. the plug should be covered in the best cotton sheet and soaked with hot peanut oil. or clamping it in a form, heating it in an oven and free blowing it with air pressure. there was an article a couple months ago in custom planes that was really informative. Del --- Richard Navratril wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard > Navratril" > > I have already cut my lexan from a template. Now I > would like to heat form it. Does anyone have ideas > of heating required and methods for bending? I dont > have much scrap left to play with. > Dick N. > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:23 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com Hold on your brother did not build a metal shinker out of Cleco pliers? But he may have built some fluting, or crimping pliers. There is a big difference, with fluting pliers you get a ripple to the metal edge. What I have been talking about that makes the best and most professional look is a shinker-stretcher, and it has special powerful jaws. I have the AS catalog with the Luscombe on the front, on page 460 look at the Original Lancaster metal former and tell me if your brother really made one of these? If so my hat is off to him. Dan ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:23 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com Dick, Do not heat form it, bend it in a sheet metal brake. It bends just metal, try it on scrap in a vice. If you do not have a brake, go to a local Heating and Air duct shop and use theirs. Dan ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:01 PM PST US From: "walter evans" "Fishnet" Subject: Pietenpol-List: do the nozzles shut off automatically?? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" I'm ashamed to admit ,that when I started flying, I flew a club plane that was always fueled by a line/fuel guy with a roving gas truck. Every plane from way back then till 6 years ago was always full when I got it. Then, got into Ultralights, and the " carry/mix your own fuel." Well anyway,,,now my Pietenpol is flying, and the first few main tank fulls I hand carried from the airport next door, with 100LL. Soon it'll be time to grow up and fly to my second permitted airport , in Phase 1 , for fuel in Sussex NJ, to the north. I have a 14 gal main/nose tank, and a 10 gal center/ top wing tank ( that feeds by gravity to the main tank) I know the mess that I've had fuelling the U/L with a gas can, and over filling. Do the AV GAS pump nozzles shut off automatically like a car gas nozzle? I've only put some gas in planes since, and never filled them up. Can I over fill the top tank and fill up the cockpit and my seat? Or do I have to do the " watch the gallons and do the finger wave thing"? What I'm asking is,,,"do the nozzles shut off automatically?" walt NX140DL (north N.J.) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:41 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Firewall shaping --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hi Dan, You are right, what he made this time was crimping pliers... I could not find the tool you mentioned, he builds tools (mainly stamping type), my english is limited in some areas, for what I understand. Is this one the type that goes in the hidraulic long press to make kind of "waves" to reinforce the thin metal?... He made one that we plan to use in our Zenith 701 for the bottom inspection door, normaly the part from the kit comes with bents from the corner to the center (like air conditioning ducts). Well, sorry for my mistake. Saludos Gary Gower. --- ZigoDan@aol.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com > > Hold on your brother did not build a metal shinker out of Cleco > pliers? > But he may have built some fluting, or crimping pliers. > There is a big difference, with fluting pliers you get a ripple to > the metal > edge. What I have been talking about that makes the best and most > professional look is a shinker-stretcher, and it has special powerful > jaws. > I have the AS catalog with the Luscombe on the front, on page 460 > look at the > Original Lancaster metal former and tell me if your brother really > made one > of these? If so my hat is off to him. > > Dan > > > > > > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:44 PM PST US From: Jim Malley Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Malley Whatever type windshield you build, I suggest making it high enough to send the air over your head. About 20 years ago I flew in one Piet with a low windshield, it was a nice flying airplane and comfortable at first, but the blast on my forehead was tiring after a while. You'll find that the higher windshield will also be greatly appreciated in cool weather. Unfortunately, the windshield can't be raked too much for the reasons you describe, but they make neat clear speed brakes, though. Jim Malley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Windshield > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Here's a question for the colleective wisdom of this group. I'm about to > make the windshields for my Pietenpol (the last task before beginning to > cover it!). I'm making the flat style three piece windshield rather than > the curved type. Does anyone know what the typical design parameters are > for windshields? Should they come up as high as the pilot's eyes, or even > with the top of the pilot's head? I believe the old Wacos reduced the > windblast effect somewhat by sloping the front windshield pretty severely, > but that is not really an option with a Pietenpol due to the roll wires > between the front cabane struts. How tall have other folks made their > windshields, and are they happy with the results? > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:03 PM PST US From: Doug413@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: help needed in Oklahoma (off-topic) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doug413@aol.com In a message dated 2/20/2003 2:55:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, taildrags@hotmail.com writes: > Hello, folks; > > A buddy lost his Tri-Pacer in a non-flying ground incident and is looking > to > replace it ASAP. One of the airplanes he's looking at is in Guthrie, OK > and > he only has verbal info and photos of it, so I'm trying to help find > someone > reliable who might be able to actually eyeball the airplane for a second > opinion. Any of you good Pieters near Guthrie? Email me off-net; thanks. > Oscar, I live in Wichita, Kansas which is about 120 miles North of Guthrie. I would be willing to go look at the plane. Let me know the details and if there is still a need. Doug Bryant ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:55 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Pieters, Having read the net today I feel I should ground N41CC as I did not do any of these good things you are discussing. First. I used Lexan for my two windshields. After making patterns from poster boards and fabing my five attaching clips I bent, drilled and bolted it down without heat, peanut oil or any other aids you talk about. SHE FLIES. Second. On the fire wall thing. I used a sheet of .032 Stainless steel cut to shape of firewall without any crimping or flanging. I did make it in two parts, the lower part removable for maintenance on fuel system and cut off valves etc and access to the front rudder pedals. They say this thing is experimental and boy did I experiment. SHE FLIES Hope this is not too offensive for you purists. Corky in La with 4 ribs completed on N84CC ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:11 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Pretty good idea, Walt. Now if I can just find that windshield pattern that came with the plans seven years ago ... Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" I made the curved type from the print. Why not make a cardboard mock-up of that one (I assume you got the print in your plans) and hold it up and see how tall it is. Make the square one just as high. In my three and a half hours on mine , it seems just right. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Windshield > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Here's a question for the colleective wisdom of this group. I'm about to > make the windshields for my Pietenpol (the last task before beginning to > cover it!). I'm making the flat style three piece windshield rather than > the curved type. Does anyone know what the typical design parameters are > for windshields? Should they come up as high as the pilot's eyes, or even > with the top of the pilot's head? I believe the old Wacos reduced the > windblast effect somewhat by sloping the front windshield pretty severely, > but that is not really an option with a Pietenpol due to the roll wires > between the front cabane struts. How tall have other folks made their > windshields, and are they happy with the results? > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:57 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Hi Dick, Years ago I did some heat forming of Lexan. It doesn't take much temperature - maybe 200 deg. in your wife's oven. It will be very pliable after a few minutes in the oven and can be draped over a form to cool. To get really slick, make your form of aluminum with tiny holes drilled on 1" squares and a plenum chamber on the back side connected to a vacuum (like a shop vac). Put the softened lexan in place, turn on the vacuum and it will quickly take the shape of the form. Be careful with Lexan. Lexan is a polycarbonate and is highly susceptible to a phenomenon known as "stress-cracking". What happens is that while polycarbonate is very strong, in the presence of some solvents it loses strength very rapidly, to the point that any locked in stresses (such as the stresses applied by the bolts holding the windshiedl in place) can cause cracks to develop. Unfortunately, one of the solvents that causes this is gasoline. If you have any stresses in the windshield and spill a little gas on it, it will likely begin to crack around the screw holes. I once saw a Lexan windshield on a Starduster Too get some 100 octane splashed on it and the whole thing just crazed and shattered right before my eyes. I was working the line at the airport and certainly was glad that the owner had fueled the plane, instead of me being responsible. Acrylic (plexiglas) is not as strong as polycarbonate, but is not so susceptible to stress cracking. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Navratril Subject: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" I have already cut my lexan from a template. Now I would like to heat form it. Does anyone have ideas of heating required and methods for bending? I dont have much scrap left to play with. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:58 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windshield --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com Corky, To each his own, that's the great thing about homebuilts. Dan ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:13 PM PST US From: ZigoDan@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another windshield Q --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ZigoDan@aol.com Jack, I know what you mean, my Hipps Reliant has a Lexan windshields and is cracking right around the filler neck area where gas has splashed on it. Makes me wonder if this is the reason most certified windshields are made from Plexiglass? Dan