Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 04/11/03


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:06 AM - Re: diesel air camper (John McNarry)
     2. 05:53 AM - weight & balance (Oscar Zuniga)
     3. 08:43 AM - Re: weight & balance (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     4. 12:15 PM - Re: weight & balance (Michael D Cuy)
     5. 01:38 PM - Re: weight & balance (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     6. 03:18 PM - Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (walter evans)
     7. 03:51 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     8. 03:55 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (Gene Rambo)
     9. 04:40 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (walter evans)
    10. 06:23 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder (Kip & Beth Gardner)
    11. 07:44 PM - FW: radials (Christian Bobka)
    12. 07:47 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (Waytogopiet@aol.com)
    13. 08:00 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (Jack Phillips)
    14. 10:06 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (John Carmen)
    15. 10:10 PM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (Rcaprd@aol.com)
    16. 10:33 PM - Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes (Rcaprd@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:06:20 AM PST US
    From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
    Subject: diesel air camper
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca> Keep the weight under 240 lbs and the engine on a short mount as per the A and it would probably work. Would probably require electrical system too as the TDI has some electronic controls. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of allen smith Subject: Pietenpol-List: diesel air camper --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "allen smith" <allenfarleysmith@hotmail.com> Dear Pietenpol folks Has anyone tried to fly a Pietenpol with the new 1.9 l VW TDI (diesel ) engine? Seems to me that the high torque low RPM engine ( 155 ft. lbs @ 1900 RPM ) would allow you to sling a nice big prop similar to that used with an A powered air camper. Obviously, weight may be the major obstacle. What would be an acceptable maximum engine weight considering that you may even end up with an increase in available power? Thanks, Allen Smith allen.smith@insitugroup.net


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:53:04 AM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: weight & balance
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> Back when Corky was doing his final w&b on NX41CC, he posted the weights and measurements used for the calculations on his airplane. After some worrying about whether it was going to work or not, things turned out just fine and I saved his w&b post in my "keeper" file along with Doc Mosher's useful info from some of the old CAA design manuals. Last night I took out Corky's data again to do some 'what-if' calculations to see what it would take to throw a Piet out of balance. It's tough! The worst-case forward CG scenario I could come up with was full fuel and a very light pilot (my 90 lb. daughter), which put the CG at 13.9" aft of datum (wing LE) and all-up weight of 817 lbs. Worst-case aft CG scenario I dreamed up was a 220 lb. pilot, 200 lb. passenger, 6 lbs. of charts and water bottle in the "baggage compartment", and nothing but fumes in the fuel tank (2 gal.)... let's call it the last ride of the day at a fly-in ;o) This produced a weight of 1153 lbs. and a CG 19.53" aft of datum. Now I don't know what NX41CC's max gross is, but this weight would really be pushing any Piet except John Dilatush's on a hot afternoon. The CG would still be OK on paper. A similar situation, with 185 lb. pilot, no passenger, 6 lbs. of "baggage" and 2 gals. of fuel, pushed the CG to 20.66" aft of datum at a weight of 834 lbs. and turned out to be about the furthest aft I could get the CG in a real-life situation. The gross weight would be much better than the previous scenario which means climb would be OK but control might be iffy as far as getting a little funny on the elevator and easy to stall without enough nose-down authority. The suggested design limits of 22% to 34% of MAC would be about 13" to 20" aft of LE for the Pietenpol with a 60" chord, so it would appear that Corky's plane is about as close to perfect as you can get these things. That guy Pietenpol...! If you build it the way he designed it, I guess it will work! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:43:38 AM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: weight & balance
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Oscar, Yes, 41CC does fly near perfect and Edwin and I are proud. However; we changed from a 22 lb metal prop to a 7 1/2 wooden prop. Flying last Sat for nearly 2 hrs I had to hold forward pressure on the stick when at climb or cruise. Not much but enough that when I released the stick the nose just turned upwards. Not abruptly. We came in with about 5 gals, forward fuel tank, with no noticable tail heaviness more than when we took off. I don't plan any rigging change until I fly it solo, soon I hope. I have a simple Rude Goldberg trim system which works satisfactorily. With no passenger and my extra weight, 190 lbs, I may have to move the wing rearward about 1/2 inch. We'll see. Corky


    Message 4


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    Time: 12:15:49 PM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: weight & balance
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Corky---How about with full fuel in your nose tank and you in the back seat ? Do you still get some nose pitch up in climb or cruise when you release the stick ? My wing is back 4" and the motor mount out 1" and with me at 195 lbs the nose is a bit heavy with full fuel on board. As it burns off from a full 17 gallons to about 9 gallons I have to hold forward stick a bit in cruise. Mike C.


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:38:11 PM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: weight & balance
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Mike, Can't answer the fuel differential question as I can't afford to fill the tank. Maybe I'll get a loan from Edwin and we'll answer. However it's not too much and with my little tab rigging it won't even be noticable. Corky


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:18:11 PM PST US
    From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
    Subject: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> After about 6 or 7 hours, I've decided that I might have to do something about the rudder bar. The only way that you can use it is to push/pull yur whole legs like on a sled. I'm so used to working the toes like "flappers" pivoting on the heels. What am I doing wrong? Thinking of adding uprights to the bar to make them more toe sensitive, or replacing the bar with standard pedals. Yesterday I seemed to jam up on the rudder and on landing, the thing almost got away from me and was up on one wheel and looping to the right. Scared the crap out of me. Anyone else feel this way? I know the bar is good so you don't collapse the rudder horn, but I may have to change. walt


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:51:54 PM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Walt, Sure glad you brought up this rudder bar business. After a few real harry landings and some loss of control I laid awake many nights trying to figure out the problem. I seem to want to press right foot when I want to go left and vice verse. Then suddenly I felt I was skippering my Lightning sail boat. When you want to go right you push the tiller to the left and again vise verse. I mentioned this to my I/P last Sat and told him I might think of putting in rudder pedals. I too have not been comfortable with this rudder bar. When you press on the right side you are pivoting to the left. It's just not a natural feel and control. ( For me anyway, as I've NEVER had any directional control problem since I began to fly several years ago. Corky


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:55:44 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> You could criss-cross the rudder cables so it steers like a bicycle!! (LOL) What makes you think you are doing something wrong? The bar may take some getting used to, like anything else such as stick versus yoke, etc. I've always been so focused on not screwing up that I don't tend to notice whether I am using a rudder bar/pedal/yoke/stick/side stick/or whatever. I'd say stick with it, but then it's not my airplane that might get damaged. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > After about 6 or 7 hours, I've decided that I might have to do something about the rudder bar. The only way that you can use it is to push/pull yur whole legs like on a sled. I'm so used to working the toes like "flappers" pivoting on the heels. What am I doing wrong? > Thinking of adding uprights to the bar to make them more toe sensitive, or replacing the bar with standard pedals. > Yesterday I seemed to jam up on the rudder and on landing, the thing almost got away from me and was up on one wheel and looping to the right. Scared the crap out of me. > Anyone else feel this way? > I know the bar is good so you don't collapse the rudder horn, but I may have to change. > walt > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 04:40:39 PM PST US
    From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> No that's not the problem. It's not confusing on which way to turn. Just that the bar comes in at the middle of the foot, so you find yourself pushing your toes, and not too much happens. In order for the bar to move you have to push/pull your whole leg. When you do it conciously <sp> its fine, but come in on a hairy landing and the past comes back, and the toes don't work too much. Just thinking that if I add a raised portion to the bar it will be catching my toes and respond like I think they should. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> > > You could criss-cross the rudder cables so it steers like a bicycle!! (LOL) > > What makes you think you are doing something wrong? The bar may take some > getting used to, like anything else such as stick versus yoke, etc. I've > always been so focused on not screwing up that I don't tend to notice > whether I am using a rudder bar/pedal/yoke/stick/side stick/or whatever. > I'd say stick with it, but then it's not my airplane that might get damaged. > > Gene > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > To: "piet discussion" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > > > After about 6 or 7 hours, I've decided that I might have to do something > about the rudder bar. The only way that you can use it is to push/pull yur > whole legs like on a sled. I'm so used to working the toes like "flappers" > pivoting on the heels. What am I doing wrong? > > Thinking of adding uprights to the bar to make them more toe sensitive, or > replacing the bar with standard pedals. > > Yesterday I seemed to jam up on the rudder and on landing, the thing > almost got away from me and was up on one wheel and looping to the right. > Scared the crap out of me. > > Anyone else feel this way? > > I know the bar is good so you don't collapse the rudder horn, but I may > have to change. > > walt > > > > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:23:36 PM PST US
    From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder
    bar? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> At 7:39 PM -0400 04/11/03, walter evans wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" ><wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > >No that's not the problem. It's not confusing on which way to turn. Just >that the bar comes in at the middle of the foot, so you find yourself >pushing your toes, and not too much happens. In order for the bar to move >you have to push/pull your whole leg. >When you do it conciously <sp> its fine, but come in on a hairy landing and >the past comes back, and the toes don't work too much. >Just thinking that if I add a raised portion to the bar it will be catching >my toes and respond like I think they should. >walt Walt, Maybe the bar IS too low for your comfort zone. After all, this is sort of a 'one size fits all' aircraft - "Build it TO THE PLANS" everyone says - if we did that none of these birds would ever fly thanks to all of Bernie's ommissions:). Isn't this part of what the test period is all about? Figuring out if you can control the plane throughout all it's normal parameters of operation? One of the hardest things I've had to deal with in my instruction so far is the impulse to steer by turning the yoke (oops, it's NOT a car!), so I understand what you mean about the past coming back. After about 3 frustrating hours in the Taylorcraft, Forrest let me fly a Citabria one day - no more 'wheel' problem! Good luck - stick with it. I envy you - at least you are flying your own plane. Cheers, Kip North Canton, OH


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:44:36 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: FW: radials
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> -----Original Message----- From: Dick & Polly [mailto:pdweeden@wekz.net] Subject: Re: radials Chris The little radials in my shop are not mine. They belong to John Vorndran and Otis Lokken. Otis has his engine finished and has roughly 7 hours on it on a test stand. It runs and sounds great. John is still working on his and is getting close. These guys bought the castings from HCI and they are using my shop to build them. When finished they are going on Micro Mong biplanes. Thats about all I know. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Subject: radials > hello, dick, chris bobka here. I am a pietenpol guy and probably talked to > you at one time or another at the Piet flyin. Anyway, I bought a couple of > the new piet shirts through the mail from Bill and I chanced to ask him > about the HCI radials you had been working on in your shop. I was in your > hangar talking with Ed Sampson at Grassroots and we where trying to figure > out what you were up to. > > Could you fill me in on the latest so I can spread the word amongst a few of > us that have been watching it? > > Thanks. > > chris bobka > minneapolis > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:47:28 PM PST US
    From: Waytogopiet@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Waytogopiet@aol.com Walt, I may have spent as much time on a sled as I have flying and I too was concerned about the rudder bar and did put "risers" on them as you mentioned, where I could rest the ball of my foot. Haven't flown or taxied her yet and may find out it's not a problem. But, then there's that old panic situation where you revert to ingrained habits, and I didn't want to gamble on whether I would have my brain re-programed before it occurred !!! Don Hicks


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:00:11 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Walt, I suspect that it will just take a little getting used to. I flew a Pietenpol last year and frankly didn't even notice the rudder bar, but I learned to fly taildraggers in a J-3 Cub with heel brakes so I got used to using the rudder pedals with the middle of my foot so I could access the brakes. When I bought a Cessna 140 with toe brakes I could never seem to get used to them. To me it is more intuitive to dig your heels in to stop. Pushing your toes forward seems to mean "GO". Could it be that your tailwheel steering is too sensitive? Most Piets attach the tailwheel steering cables to the rudder cables which makes the tailwheel very sensitive, especially on pavement. Maybe weaker tailwheel steering springs would help your problem. Welding tabs on top of the rudder bar would probably be the easiest solution to make it feel more like a "normal" airplane. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter evans Subject: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> After about 6 or 7 hours, I've decided that I might have to do something about the rudder bar. The only way that you can use it is to push/pull yur whole legs like on a sled. I'm so used to working the toes like "flappers" pivoting on the heels. What am I doing wrong? Thinking of adding uprights to the bar to make them more toe sensitive, or replacing the bar with standard pedals. Yesterday I seemed to jam up on the rudder and on landing, the thing almost got away from me and was up on one wheel and looping to the right. Scared the crap out of me. Anyone else feel this way? I know the bar is good so you don't collapse the rudder horn, but I may have to change. walt


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:06:11 PM PST US
    From: "John Carmen" <jlcarmen@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" <jlcarmen@bellsouth.net> people This is interesting topic. I learned to fly in a taildragger. But when I went to get some real professional instruction I was put in a 172. The instructor kept yelling at me to get off the brakes for steering. I could not brake ( no pun) the habit and I still cant. Well many years later I got a chance to fly a champ with the heel brakes and I had a heck of a time steering. So I think the brakes and rudder medium should be what one feels comfortable with and design accordingly. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> > > Walt, > > I suspect that it will just take a little getting used to. I flew a > Pietenpol last year and frankly didn't even notice the rudder bar, but I > learned to fly taildraggers in a J-3 Cub with heel brakes so I got used to > using the rudder pedals with the middle of my foot so I could access the > brakes. When I bought a Cessna 140 with toe brakes I could never seem to > get used to them. To me it is more intuitive to dig your heels in to stop. > Pushing your toes forward seems to mean "GO". > > Could it be that your tailwheel steering is too sensitive? Most Piets > attach the tailwheel steering cables to the rudder cables which makes the > tailwheel very sensitive, especially on pavement. Maybe weaker tailwheel > steering springs would help your problem. > > Welding tabs on top of the rudder bar would probably be the easiest solution > to make it feel more like a "normal" airplane. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walter > evans > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 6:17 PM > To: piet discussion > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > After about 6 or 7 hours, I've decided that I might have to do something > about the rudder bar. The only way that you can use it is to push/pull yur > whole legs like on a sled. I'm so used to working the toes like "flappers" > pivoting on the heels. What am I doing wrong? > Thinking of adding uprights to the bar to make them more toe sensitive, or > replacing the bar with standard pedals. > Yesterday I seemed to jam up on the rudder and on landing, the thing almost > got away from me and was up on one wheel and looping to the right. Scared > the crap out of me. > Anyone else feel this way? > I know the bar is good so you don't collapse the rudder horn, but I may have > to change. > walt > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 10:10:34 PM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 4/11/03 6:41:30 PM Central Daylight Time, wbeevans@worldnet.att.net writes: << No that's not the problem. It's not confusing on which way to turn. Just that the bar comes in at the middle of the foot, so you find yourself pushing your toes, and not too much happens. In order for the bar to move you have to push/pull your whole leg. When you do it conciously <sp> its fine, but come in on a hairy landing and the past comes back, and the toes don't work too much. Just thinking that if I add a raised portion to the bar it will be catching my toes and respond like I think they should. walt >> Walt, I know what you mean, and it is also been a concern of mine. I also had a couple of scary landings, but I attributed it to lack of experience. I put 25 hrs on my Piet last summer, and I'm finally used to moving my whole leg to get the intended control input. I put a coat of polyester resin, and one layer of fiberglass cloth where my heal slides on the floor. I sanded, cleaned and preped the area, and used just enough resin to make it glossy. It allows even tennis shoes to slide, and it seems to work well for me. I don't think a tab should be added to the top of the bar, because this will cause the rudder bar to torque on the pivit bolt, possibly causing a failure. I am considering raising the whole bar, to fit to a better place in the ball of my foot, so some toe action can be used. Chuck Gantzer


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:33:28 PM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com How are you folks doing with heel brakes and rudder bar ? It seems to me it would be an uncomfortable combination of sliding your foot, while trying to keep your heel stationary on the heel brake. I'm going to add brakes, and possibly a small non steering tail wheel, so I can access hard surface taxi ways. I found some 2 1/2" diameter, and maybe 5/8" wide steel wheels (with bearings) for the tail wheel, at the Yard Store, here in Wichita. Or maybe I'll just leave the hardwood block back there, but I need directional brakes to handle hard surfaces. Chuck Gantzer




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