Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Sat 04/12/03


Total Messages Posted: 17



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:13 AM - Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? (John Dilatush)
     2. 07:01 AM - Re: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes (John McNarry)
     3. 07:46 AM - Rudder bar (LAWRENCE WILLIAMS)
     4. 08:09 AM - Re: Rudder bar (CaptainRon)
     5. 11:09 AM - Re: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes (Les Schubert)
     6. 11:17 AM - Re: Rudder bar (Kip & Beth Gardner)
     7. 01:37 PM - Lemon Pledge on your floor, Walt....... (Michael D Cuy)
     8. 01:46 PM - jammed feet (Michael D Cuy)
     9. 01:58 PM - Go figure (Carl Loar)
    10. 02:16 PM - Re: Go figure (Michael D Cuy)
    11. 02:49 PM - Re: Rudder bar (walter evans)
    12. 03:22 PM - Building a Piet (clif)
    13. 03:36 PM - Re: Rudder bar (Kip & Beth Gardner)
    14. 03:55 PM - Re: Rudder bar (walter evans)
    15. 07:14 PM - Re: Rudder bar (Bert Conoly)
    16. 07:33 PM - Re: Rudder bar (John Carmen)
    17. 08:55 PM - [ Michael D Cuy ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:13:33 AM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Re: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar?
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Is anybody else not satisfied with the rudder bar? +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Walt, I put toe brakes on my rudder bar, aluminum "skid plates" under the bar and then lowered my seat by 1-1/2" to allow for some padding under my butt. All this means that I do use leg motion to operate the rudder, toe motion to operate the brakes. It is different but not impossible to get used to, and soon becomes second nature. At first you have to remember to pick up your toes before landing so as to stay off the brakes during roll out. Most old timers, myself included, will tell you that the older planes all had their individual characteristics in control and you had to get used to them. The Piet is an old design, don't try to "upgrade" it. John +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > After about 6 or 7 hours, I've decided that I might have to do something about the rudder bar. The only way that you can use it is to push/pull yur whole legs like on a sled. I'm so used to working the toes like "flappers" pivoting on the heels. What am I doing wrong? > Thinking of adding uprights to the bar to make them more toe sensitive, or replacing the bar with standard pedals. > Yesterday I seemed to jam up on the rudder and on landing, the thing almost got away from me and was up on one wheel and looping to the right. Scared the crap out of me. > Anyone else feel this way? > I know the bar is good so you don't collapse the rudder horn, but I may have to change. > walt > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:01:57 AM PST US
    From: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca>
    Subject: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca> I won't claim this works as I have only made a proof of concept mock up. I have the straight axle gear 21" rims with cable operated drum brakes and the rudder bar. The brake control is like a motorcycle hand brake mounted on the front of the stick. The sheathed cable runs down the stick and splits into two cables parallel to the aileron torque tube. These two cable sheaths are anchored to the floor and the inner cable make a 180 degree turn back towards the front at about under the seat. They then pass over moving pulleys that are fastened with rod links to the rudder bar. This means the cables have an S shaped path and exit the floor at about the rear landing gear "V" strut. Sheathed motorcycle cables take the pull from there to the drum brake levers. With the handle squeezed hard toward the stick the wheels are locked. The lever is at a bit of a stretch but I can get my fingers around it. When the rudder bar is moved, the cable on the side the bar is pressed gets tighter. The opposite side goes slack. The differential is enough that the opposite wheel turns freely. The hand lever moves toward the stick slightly. The slack cable is held on the pulleys by guards and fair lead tubes on the torque tube. I haven't built the whole affair yet and plan to have a row of holes on the pull rod attachment at the rudder bar. This will allow me to find the right rudder bar pull point. Benefits: Brakes! I can hold the brakes with one hand. Differential braking. No Hydraulics. Motorcycle cables are adjustable. Thinking this up is a cure for insomnia. Disadvantages: The pile of parts weighs about 2 lbs. I can't seem to find the time to finish it. Rudder bar? Well the first vehicles I drove where "Capital I go-karts" with front axle steering. You pushed on the opposite side from the direction you wanted to steer. All my time has been in older tail draggers. The Tiger Moth has the only rudder bar I've flown. It has no brakes and a funny linkage that keeps the pedal attached to the bar from swinging in an arc. It still requires a lot of leg motion. Learn to dance. Fly a tail dragger! John -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com How are you folks doing with heel brakes and rudder bar ? It seems to me it would be an uncomfortable combination of sliding your foot, while trying to keep your heel stationary on the heel brake. I'm going to add brakes, and possibly a small non steering tail wheel, so I can access hard surface taxi ways. I found some 2 1/2" diameter, and maybe 5/8" wide steel wheels (with bearings) for the tail wheel, at the Yard Store, here in Wichita. Or maybe I'll just leave the hardwood block back there, but I need directional brakes to handle hard surfaces. Chuck Gantzer


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:46:21 AM PST US
    From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com>
    Subject: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com> Only a couple of things to add to what's already been said about the rudder-bars vs. pedals: 1. If you're confused about which way the rudder goes when the rudder bar is deflected, just think of what it's doing. It's PULLING the rudder on the side you are pushing. It seems to me it's the same whether you use a bar or pedals. 2. While in my cockpit, my feet never seem to be sticking straight up. They naturally assume a 45 degree angle to the outside (genetics? Natural anatomy?) so the balls of my feet DO hit the rudder bar and feel quite natural. I have never had to go anywhere near full deflection yet. 3. Whoever posted "If we all (built to the plans) none of these birds would ever fly thanks to all of Bernie's omissions", and all the others on the list that feel that way, let me quote something from an often-referenced book. "When you make the decision to build, no matter what it is, you are no longer a spectator. During my years in aviation, I have come to have a tremendous respect for anyone who builds a single part, and I have nothing but the deepest contempt for anyone who would begin to critique another man's work, having done none himself. We have all overheard some jackass pontificating while walking between the rows of homebuilts at an airshow. With my aviation experience, I can clearly tell he's built nothing; my experience with people tells me he never will. Do not be put off by fools like this. The mere fact that you are now reading ...(this book)... shows that your place is among the true aviators. Any effort you make is beyond the critique of mere spectators." Wm. Wynne So.......... have you designed and published plans for an airplane? Did you even build your own airplane or are you simply a Pontificating jackass? Piets forever- Larry


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:09:42 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    From: CaptainRon <captainron@theriver.com>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: CaptainRon <captainron@theriver.com> posting test do not archive


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:09:51 AM PST US
    From: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net>
    Subject: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net> John I like your idea. As a non pilot building a Piet and I have been walking around the brake issue this sounds like a simple system to build that would be fairly intuitive to learn. Best of all it seems like a design that would be hard to get in trouble with. I had considered adding cable toe brakes to my rudder bar but was concerned that I might accidentally put the brakes on on touch down. Your idea would make this easy to avoid. Regards Les At 09:03 AM 12/04/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" <jmcnarry@escape.ca> > >I won't claim this works as I have only made a proof of concept mock up. I >have the straight axle gear 21" rims with cable operated drum brakes and the >rudder bar. The brake control is like a motorcycle hand brake mounted on the >front of the stick. The sheathed cable runs down the stick and splits into >two cables parallel to the aileron torque tube. These two cable sheaths are >anchored to the floor and the inner cable make a 180 degree turn back >towards the front at about under the seat. They then pass over moving >pulleys that are fastened with rod links to the rudder bar. This means the >cables have an S shaped path and exit the floor at about the rear landing >gear "V" strut. Sheathed motorcycle cables take the pull from there to the >drum brake levers. > >With the handle squeezed hard toward the stick the wheels are locked. The >lever is at a bit of a stretch but I can get my fingers around it. When the >rudder bar is moved, the cable on the side the bar is pressed gets tighter. >The opposite side goes slack. The differential is enough that the opposite >wheel turns freely. The hand lever moves toward the stick slightly. The >slack cable is held on the pulleys by guards and fair lead tubes on the >torque tube. I haven't built the whole affair yet and plan to have a row of >holes on the pull rod attachment at the rudder bar. This will allow me to >find the right rudder bar pull point. > >Benefits: Brakes! > I can hold the brakes with one hand. > Differential braking. > No Hydraulics. > Motorcycle cables are adjustable. > Thinking this up is a cure for insomnia. > >Disadvantages: The pile of parts weighs about 2 lbs. > I can't seem to find the time to finish it. > >Rudder bar? Well the first vehicles I drove where "Capital I go-karts" with >front axle steering. You pushed on the opposite side from the direction you >wanted to steer. >All my time has been in older tail draggers. The Tiger Moth has the only >rudder bar I've flown. It has no brakes and a funny linkage that keeps the >pedal attached to the bar from swinging in an arc. It still requires a lot >of leg motion. > >Learn to dance. Fly a tail dragger! >John > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of >Rcaprd@aol.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Bar with Heel Brakes > > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > >How are you folks doing with heel brakes and rudder bar ? It seems to me it >would be an uncomfortable combination of sliding your foot, while trying to >keep your heel stationary on the heel brake. >I'm going to add brakes, and possibly a small non steering tail wheel, so I >can access hard surface taxi ways. I found some 2 1/2" diameter, and maybe >5/8" wide steel wheels (with bearings) for the tail wheel, at the Yard >Store, >here in Wichita. Or maybe I'll just leave the hardwood block back there, >but >I need directional brakes to handle hard surfaces. > >Chuck Gantzer > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:17:59 AM PST US
    From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> >3. Whoever posted "If we all (built to the plans) none of these birds >would ever fly thanks to all of Bernie's omissions", and all the others on >the list that feel that way, let me quote something from an >often-referenced book. > "When you make the decision to build, no matter what it is, you are >no longer a spectator. During my years in aviation, I have come to have a >tremendous respect for anyone who builds a single part, and I have nothing >but the deepest contempt for anyone who would begin to critique another >man's work, having done none himself. > We have all overheard some jackass pontificating while walking >between the rows of homebuilts at an airshow. With my aviation experience, >I can clearly tell he's built nothing; my experience with people tells me >he never will. Do not be put off by fools like this. The mere fact that >you are now reading ...(this book)... shows that your place is among the >true aviators. Any effort you make is beyond the critique of mere >spectators." >Wm. Wynne >So.......... have you designed and published plans for an airplane? Did >you even build your own airplane or are you simply a Pontificating jackass? > >Piets forever- >Larry Yes Larry, I AM building, but no, I have never designed a full-size airplane, just models. However, I had a guy over here last weekend to look at my project because he is thinking about building a Piet & he noticed the right off the bat all the things I'd had to figure out for myself because it WASN'T ON THE PLANS. I'd suggest you think before you post things that might offend the rest of us, especially those of us who are trying haerd to move our projects along. Kip Gardner (getting a wee bit touchy about comments from people who type before they think) North Canton, OH


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:37:46 PM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Lemon Pledge on your floor, Walt.......
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Walt-- Like John Dilatush mentioned, he installed alum. sheet pieces on his floor board along the travel of your heel to help your movements on the rudder bar. I have heard them called 'scuff plates'. I've got them in the front too where I have the plans-also pedals. Like John and Sky Gypsy and others, I installed metal scuff plates as well. I polished them and periodically apply some Lemon Pledge (or anything slippery like Armorall) to help my heels move around easier. Larry W. is right--your toes should stick pretty much straight up and splayed out towards the fuselage sides. Take your time getting used to them before you change things just to save yourself the aggravation of modifying them. If after a few more hours you really can't stand it, then I'd dig into it. After a while the rudder bar became totally comfortable. Toe brakes on the bar must be easier to operate than heel as I have. With that said, there is no reason any of us Pieters should ever need to use the brakes sans run up and slowing down as to not run into the gas pumps or another plane. If you need to use the brakes on touchdown something is seriously wrong. The rudder is plenty effective for keeping the plane going straight. If you need to use the brakes to stop a ground loop though---go for it. (but by then it is usually too late.) There are some errors and omissions in the plans no doubt, but this is a well-known thing among the discussion group and anyone reading thru the archives. These plans are as they were in 1933. This is not a step-by-step-by-nut-by-bolt homebuilt like a Christen Eagle where they give you band aids in case you cut yourself opening the boxes of the kit. Many items are left to the builder to figure out in the Piet----but nothing a little common sense and the book set by Tony Bingelis can't remedy. Mike C.


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:46:33 PM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: jammed feet
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Walt-- One more item just popped into my head. You know with our feet 'splayed out' on the rudder bar towards the fuselage sides, there is a real danger of pushing the bar to it's stops and then getting your TOE caught in front of the nearest diagonal spruce brace ! Really ! I saw a guy have a really rough time on roll-out with Frank's Sky Gypsy and when we talked with him (an experienced tailwheel pilot) he told us that his one foot/toe got caught on one side or the other of one of those diagonals !! Yikes ! Here he had on some pretty heavy work boots though too which didn't help much. You might want to do some hangar flying with your tail off the ground an inch or two so you can fiddle with seeing if this might have been what happened to you. I've never had it happen (thankfully !) in my Piet, but the possibility is there. (guess my 9 1/2 shoe size doesn't get my toes that far ahead. When you mention that you are pointing your toes forward that makes me think you might have/could have that jammed feeling happen. Keep plugging---after the heat wave (70 F on Monday) pushes East you can try it some more maybe when it gets to New Jersey:) Mike C.


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:58:36 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net>
    Subject: Go figure
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net> Well,, just got back from the airport. Went to do a few things. Some guys were there and had been checking out the Piet. Got the " did the FAA see that" or " are you sure you want to have those tires, they're not gonna slide to well". Or better yet, " gee, that's not like a cub is set up, you sure that's going to be ok?" And " doesn't look like you put any silver protectant under that paint, what kind of paint is that again?" I guess I better get use to people checking out the plane and not really knowing what they are seeing. Lot of those guys are just use to GA aircraft but geez,,,,, Carl,,,, biting the bullet and keeping my mouth shut and smiling check out my webpage at http://members.core.com/skycarl


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:16:06 PM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: Go figure
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Carl--- Just ask those tin-can pilots what kind of homebuilt THEY have and built. Ask them if they are A&P's or IA's ? Ask them if they have ever done a complete aircraft fabric covering job. Ask them if they ever rebuilt a Corvair engine and modified it for aircraft use. Ask them if they know the difference between an AN-3 and an AN-4. Ask them if they have any time in a Cub like YOU do. Ask them to kiss your butt after the FAA signs it off. Guess THEY won't be getting a ride in your new plane this summer !!!! Mike C.


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:49:03 PM PST US
    From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> Not taking ANYBODYS side,,,,This thing about all the ommisions from the plans. I didn't find that at all. I think I had a worse time building a modern day kit, which still wasn't bad. Only difference was that I could call the modern factory, where Bernard is hard to reach. If there is a list of omissions from the plans I'd like to see them. I remember when I first recieved the plans and looked at them while waiting to pick up my daughter from some nite classes at a county college. (She had a foot operation and couldn't drive) When I first saw them I remember saying "where's the rest of the information?" But the more you look, the more is there. Please, Please someone tell me what in particular is missing. walt sorry for pontificating ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> > > > >3. Whoever posted "If we all (built to the plans) none of these birds > >would ever fly thanks to all of Bernie's omissions", and all the others on > >the list that feel that way, let me quote something from an > >often-referenced book. > > "When you make the decision to build, no matter what it is, you are > >no longer a spectator. During my years in aviation, I have come to have a > >tremendous respect for anyone who builds a single part, and I have nothing > >but the deepest contempt for anyone who would begin to critique another > >man's work, having done none himself. > > We have all overheard some jackass pontificating while walking > >between the rows of homebuilts at an airshow. With my aviation experience, > >I can clearly tell he's built nothing; my experience with people tells me > >he never will. Do not be put off by fools like this. The mere fact that > >you are now reading ...(this book)... shows that your place is among the > >true aviators. Any effort you make is beyond the critique of mere > >spectators." > >Wm. Wynne > >So.......... have you designed and published plans for an airplane? Did > >you even build your own airplane or are you simply a Pontificating jackass? > > > >Piets forever- > >Larry > > Yes Larry, I AM building, but no, I have never designed a full-size > airplane, just models. However, I had a guy over here last weekend to look > at my project because he is thinking about building a Piet & he noticed the > right off the bat all the things I'd had to figure out for myself because > it WASN'T ON THE PLANS. > > I'd suggest you think before you post things that might offend the rest of > us, especially those of us who are trying haerd to move our projects along. > > Kip Gardner (getting a wee bit touchy about comments from people who type > before they think) > > North Canton, OH > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:22:26 PM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Building a Piet
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> When I first acquired 3 issues of the Flying and Glider manuals and saw the Piet I fell hook, line and sinker. Here was the plane for me! As I studied the info I became even more intrigued. Why? Because I love to figure things out for myself. I've gone through hours of fiddling with drawings and ideas to figure out the missing bits. And the List, Ah the list! I've never had so much fun! The entertainment value alone is worth every minute and wouldn't be there if the plans were complete! This is a plane for frustrated designers, scroungers, and the flying poor. And those displaced golden age pilots born out of their rightful time. John,That brake assembly is absolute genius- I love it! This epitomizes what Piet buiding is all about! Clif


    Message 13


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    Time: 03:36:31 PM PST US
    From: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> At 5:47 PM -0400 04/12/03, walter evans wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" ><wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > >Not taking ANYBODYS side,,,,This thing about all the ommisions from the >plans. I didn't find that at all. I think I had a worse time building a >modern day kit, which still wasn't bad. Only difference was that I could >call the modern factory, where Bernard is hard to reach. >If there is a list of omissions from the plans I'd like to see them. I >remember when I first recieved the plans and looked at them while waiting >to pick up my daughter from some nite classes at a county college. (She had >a foot operation and couldn't drive) >When I first saw them I remember saying "where's the rest of the >information?" >But the more you look, the more is there. >Please, Please someone tell me what in particular is missing. >walt >sorry for pontificating Walt, I'm not going any further with this, sorry I started it. Geez, seems like I can't open my yap on this list lately without someone jumping down my throat. Maybe I should just get off for a while. Kip North Canton, OH


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:55:25 PM PST US
    From: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" <wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> Kip, Nah, remember when we were kids and we wanted to poke at the bees nest? Just because your mother yelled at you, doesn't mean that you won't poke the nest again. Life shouldn't be full of yes men. we got to keep the juices flowing, and I want to learn. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> > > At 5:47 PM -0400 04/12/03, walter evans wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > ><wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > > >Not taking ANYBODYS side,,,,This thing about all the ommisions from the > >plans. I didn't find that at all. I think I had a worse time building a > >modern day kit, which still wasn't bad. Only difference was that I could > >call the modern factory, where Bernard is hard to reach. > >If there is a list of omissions from the plans I'd like to see them. I > >remember when I first recieved the plans and looked at them while waiting > >to pick up my daughter from some nite classes at a county college. (She had > >a foot operation and couldn't drive) > >When I first saw them I remember saying "where's the rest of the > >information?" > >But the more you look, the more is there. > >Please, Please someone tell me what in particular is missing. > >walt > >sorry for pontificating > > Walt, > > I'm not going any further with this, sorry I started it. Geez, seems like I > can't open my yap on this list lately without someone jumping down my > throat. Maybe I should just get off for a while. > > Kip > > North Canton, OH > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:14:37 PM PST US
    From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> > > At 5:47 PM -0400 04/12/03, walter evans wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > ><wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > > >Not taking ANYBODYS side,,,,This thing about all the ommisions from the > >plans. I didn't find that at all. I think I had a worse time building a > >modern day kit, which still wasn't bad. Only difference was that I could > >call the modern factory, where Bernard is hard to reach. > >If there is a list of omissions from the plans I'd like to see them. I > >remember when I first recieved the plans and looked at them while waiting > >to pick up my daughter from some nite classes at a county college. (She had > >a foot operation and couldn't drive) > >When I first saw them I remember saying "where's the rest of the > >information?" > >But the more you look, the more is there. > >Please, Please someone tell me what in particular is missing. > >walt > >sorry for pontificating > > Walt, > > I'm not going any further with this, sorry I started it. Geez, seems like I > can't open my yap on this list lately without someone jumping down my > throat. Maybe I should just get off for a while. > > Kip > > North Canton, OH Bull, Kip! You stay right here participate - if you haven't already been insulted to the point of departure. I've heard this crap for 4 years. You ARE entitled to an opinion and I guarantee you it's every bit as as valuable as any others on here. You are also entitled to discuss it on the group without receiving rude remarks, put-downs or innuendo from the resident know-it-alls. Some of these folks have assigned themselves "expert" status and insist on throwing stones any time they get the chance. Not all of us worship at the alter of Bernie - and aren't against a little objective (or even subjective) criticism. Yeah the plans were developed 70 years ago by a non-engineer without a cadd system. They're very good for what they are. (The plans, that is - the design is splendid) You want to see errors, look at Grega's plans. Oh , but lets not go THERE!!!!!!!!! Kip! I agree with you! There are some places where this design could be better. And yes, I am building an airplane - and yes I have flown a Pietenpol , several times- and yes I am an engineer and yes I have used some things from Pietenpols design - yes I have departed from Grega's plans on occasion (as have some others on this group). I hope I didn't leave anything out. I figured I'd just qualify my credentials up front - and not wait for the avalanche of criticism from the experts. I don't want to be a "pontificating ass" There are plenty here already. Holy cow, people this is what runs listers off . I'm outa here. Ya'll that know me know where to find me - best to every body. Piets (and Gregas) forever, Bert > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 07:33:47 PM PST US
    From: "John Carmen" <jlcarmen@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Rudder bar
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" <jlcarmen@bellsouth.net> Expert - is a drip...under pressure ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rudder bar > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner > <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> > > > > At 5:47 PM -0400 04/12/03, walter evans wrote: > > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > ><wbeevans@worldnet.att.net> > > > > > >Not taking ANYBODYS side,,,,This thing about all the ommisions from the > > >plans. I didn't find that at all. I think I had a worse time building a > > >modern day kit, which still wasn't bad. Only difference was that I could > > >call the modern factory, where Bernard is hard to reach. > > >If there is a list of omissions from the plans I'd like to see them. I > > >remember when I first recieved the plans and looked at them while waiting > > >to pick up my daughter from some nite classes at a county college. (She > had > > >a foot operation and couldn't drive) > > >When I first saw them I remember saying "where's the rest of the > > >information?" > > >But the more you look, the more is there. > > >Please, Please someone tell me what in particular is missing. > > >walt > > >sorry for pontificating > > > > Walt, > > > > I'm not going any further with this, sorry I started it. Geez, seems like > I > > can't open my yap on this list lately without someone jumping down my > > throat. Maybe I should just get off for a while. > > > > Kip > > > > North Canton, OH > > Bull, Kip! You stay right here participate - if you haven't already been > insulted to the point of departure. > > I've heard this crap for 4 years. You ARE entitled to an opinion and I > guarantee you it's every bit as > as valuable as any others on here. You are also entitled to discuss it on > the group without receiving rude remarks, put-downs or innuendo from the > resident know-it-alls. Some of these folks have assigned themselves > "expert" status and insist on throwing stones any time they get the chance. > > Not all of us worship at the alter of Bernie - and aren't against a little > objective (or even subjective) criticism. Yeah the plans were developed 70 > years ago by a non-engineer without a cadd system. They're very good for > what they are. (The plans, that is - the design is splendid) You want to > see errors, look at Grega's plans. > > Oh , but lets not go THERE!!!!!!!!! > > Kip! I agree with you! There are some places where this design could be > better. And yes, I am building an airplane - and yes I have flown a > Pietenpol , several times- and yes I am an engineer and yes I have used some > things from Pietenpols design - yes I have departed from Grega's plans on > occasion (as have some others on this group). I hope I didn't leave > anything out. I figured I'd just qualify my credentials up front - and not > wait for the avalanche of criticism from the experts. I don't want to be a > "pontificating ass" > There are plenty here already. > > Holy cow, people this is what runs listers off . I'm outa here. Ya'll that > know me know where to find me - best to every body. > > Piets (and Gregas) forever, > Bert > > > > > > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 08:55:52 PM PST US
    Subject: [ Michael D Cuy ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
    From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com> A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Tailwheel Cart http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov.04.12.2003/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com




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