---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/18/03: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:52 AM - Re: Stress relief of parts (John Carmen) 2. 07:56 AM - bracket materials (Les Schubert) 3. 08:25 AM - Fittings (John Dilatush) 4. 08:29 AM - Re: bracket materials (John Dilatush) 5. 08:59 AM - Re: bracket materials (DJ Vegh) 6. 09:10 AM - Re: Fittings (DJ Vegh) 7. 09:51 AM - Re: bracket materials (John Carmen) 8. 10:46 AM - landing gear (Oscar Zuniga) 9. 11:28 AM - two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (walter evans) 10. 11:46 AM - Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (tim moody) 11. 11:56 AM - bracket materials (Les Schubert) 12. 12:06 PM - Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (Maxime Gou) 13. 12:08 PM - Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (Maxime Gou) 14. 12:11 PM - Re: landing gear (rambog@erols.com) 15. 12:15 PM - Re: bracket materials (rambog@erols.com) 16. 12:32 PM - Re: (DJ Vegh) 17. 12:32 PM - Re: bracket materials (DJ Vegh) 18. 01:23 PM - Fittings (John Dilatush) 19. 01:49 PM - Re: landing gear (cat_designs@juno.com) 20. 02:58 PM - adjusting the idle mixture on a stromberg w/A-65 (walter evans) 21. 03:00 PM - Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (walter evans) 22. 03:10 PM - Re: landing gear (Gene Rambo) 23. 04:07 PM - Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (Ken & Lisa Rickards) 24. 04:34 PM - Carbon buildup (George Allen) 25. 04:59 PM - Re: Carbon buildup (John Carmen) 26. 05:02 PM - Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain (walter evans) 27. 05:34 PM - Re: Carbon buildup (Cy Galley) 28. 05:48 PM - Re: Carbon buildup (Wayne McIntosh) 29. 09:03 PM - Re: Carbon buildup (Christian Bobka) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:51 AM PST US From: "John Carmen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stress relief of parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" yes next to the weld. at the weld, NOT the weld itself. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stress relief of parts > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > John > My experience is that things always break immediately beside the weld > in what is called the heat affect zone. The weld itself rarely breaks if > done correctly. In doing weld tests the heat affect zone is what causes > all the heartburn. > Les > > At 07:41 PM 17/04/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" > > > >Sand blasting and bead blasting will have the same effect yet will have > >different cosmetic effect on the surface. This is based on my experience > >using both. if one wanted to have a polished surface then use walnut > >shells, but this will not effect the material. Blasting moves the metal, > >almost like burnishing yet its more aggressive. Either will stress relive > >the outside surface of a material. this is where the cracks propagate > >from. You will find the connecting rods and other engine parts are bead > >blasted to stress relive, this is because sand has a tendency to impregnate > >in the metal, whereas bead are less likely to. If a part has internal > >stresses one would have to take another route. But we are talking about > >thin metal that will be bent, so blasting will stress relive the outside > >surface which went under tension and or compression from the bending. the > >inside is not effected, if and only a proper radius is made. If too small a > >radius is made then the inner will be over stressed and the part is ruined. > >welding will cause inner stresses, and stiffness closer to the weld, this > >requires different method to relive the stress, heating and cooling with > >various times and chemicals. Ever notice that when something welded is > >broke the broke is at the weld???? I have heated parts and dipped them in > >burnt motor oil to carburize ( case Harding) the surface, a crude Bluing > >method. > > > >any questions? > > > >John C. > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Hubbard, Eugene" > >To: > >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stress relief of parts > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" > > > > > > > > I took the statement to suggest that sandblasting might be a bit like shot > > > peening. Whether the impact carries enough energy to make a difference, I > > > wouldn't know, and sort of doubt. > > > > > > Gene > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rhartwig11@juno.com [mailto:rhartwig11@juno.com] > > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stress relief of parts > > > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com > > > > > > John, > > > I have to question the statement that sand blasting will stress relieve > > > parts. Stress relief involves the proper heat application and cooling > > > to affect physical changes through the entire thickness of the metal. > > > Blasting only affects the surface (unless you blast too long on thin > > > sheet). Blasting can remove light scratches that could lead to cracking. > > > > > > Dick H. > > > > > > > > > Time: 06:02:23 PM PST US > > > From: "John Carmen" > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: machined parts online > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" > > > > > > > > > Sand blasting and the like will stress relive the part. do it before > > > and > > > after the part is bent. and add a larger radius to the bend that is > > > going > > > with the grain. Remember not to use the sand that did steel on aluminum > > > for > > > the metal particles will get in the aluminum and corrode it. > > > > > > My two cents if anyone cares. > > > > > > John C. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:27 AM PST US From: Les Schubert Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert Perhaps someone could explain the great fascination that some group members seem to have with making the brackets out of these high strength materials like 4130 and 4140. In looking at the plans I have I see that the material specified is "steel" which I assume back in 1930 was the equivalent of what we can buy as 1018 or 1020 or similar. I don't imagine that Bernie did any stress analysis on these parts. I would assume that he designed them by copying what others had done that worked and making them "look right". Given the extra effort and cost it takes to use these high strength materials unless you are going to reduce the weight of the airplane, why bother. And that ignores the increased risk of cracking by making these parts from these more exotic materials if proper fabrication techniques are not used. This design I believe was supposed to be simple and affordable Just my 2 cents worth. Les ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:45 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fittings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" Pieters, I have been following the discussion re: steel alloys/grain structure/bend allowances/ welding/ annealing/ stress relieving/ etc. This is all very pertinent to building the best possible aircraft airframe one can and I agree with doing things the right way! But the thought keeps returning to where I read in one of the earlier Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletters that Mr Pietenpol often used material salvaged from 55 gallon steel drums for his fittings! I doubt if he was too concerned with alloy, or bending with or against the grain. The only thing that he cautioned the builder about was that all fittings should be bent cold. The only conclusion that I can draw from this, is that the fittings as he designed them must be awfully over designed! As for getting the blanks laser cut by someone else and then fitting them up to the structure, I know in my own case that often I would have to remake the fittings over (sometimes several times) because the Pietenpol plans do not take into account any bend allowances. Also the plans were reverse engineered in 1933 by a young high school student with a new Sears/Roebuck drafting set. I believe it was Orin Hoopman who was the student and he used an existing plane to work from. It seems difficult to use these plans to layout the blanks, I had to do it in my shop and make adjustments to fit the structure. And while I'm on my soapbox, it is easy make the blanks in house using a metal cutting bandsaw with a 1/4" x 18 or 24 inch tooth blade. I made up my bandsaw from an old junk wood cutting bandsaw and then powered it with a gear motor to bring the cutting speed of the blade down. And if you need to make duplicate fittings, simply drill a couple of holes in a non-critical area of the fitting (you can call them mini lightning holes if you want), bolt the pieces together and then gang cut the blanks. The deburring can be done with a file, followed by a wire brush on your grinder, and then a Scotch Brite wheel on the grinder. Doesn't take long, costs a lot less and you can brag that you built everything yourself! Thanks for your time, John Dilatush NX114D ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:13 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials ++++++++++++++++++++++ Les, Your E-mail arrive just as I was sending my own comments out. I agree with what you have said. Let's keep things in perspective! John +++++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > Perhaps someone could explain the great fascination that some group members > seem to have with making the brackets out of these high strength materials > like 4130 and 4140. In looking at the plans I have I see that the material > specified is "steel" which I assume back in 1930 was the equivalent of what > we can buy as 1018 or 1020 or similar. I don't imagine that Bernie did any > stress analysis on these parts. I would assume that he designed them by > copying what others had done that worked and making them "look right". > Given the extra effort and cost it takes to use these high strength materials > unless you are going to reduce the weight of the airplane, why bother. > And that ignores the increased risk of cracking by making these parts > from these more exotic materials if proper fabrication techniques are > not used. This design I believe was supposed to be simple and affordable > Just my 2 cents worth. > Les > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:51 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Les, the main reason is cause our butt's are in these flying machines. Also, the Piet fittings are all very easy to make. Most of it is made from strip material. The GN-1 (my plane) goes about it entirely differently. The fittings on the GN-1 have multiple bends, angles, etc. It's not really harder to make fittitngs from 4130 for a Piet.... and only a little bit harder to make them from 4130 for a GN-1. I know there are some 100% Piet fanatic purists on the list, but geeez.... if you have modern materials available that are stronger than what was used in 1930 then I say USE IT. also..... who actually uses wood lift struts nowadays?! I seem to recall we're all using 4130 streamline tube. I'm not being a smartass.... just tellin' it like I see it. :-) DJ Vegh N74DV www.raptoronline.com Mesa, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > Perhaps someone could explain the great fascination that some group members > seem to have with making the brackets out of these high strength materials > like 4130 and 4140. In looking at the plans I have I see that the material > specified is "steel" which I assume back in 1930 was the equivalent of what > we can buy as 1018 or 1020 or similar. I don't imagine that Bernie did any > stress analysis on these parts. I would assume that he designed them by > copying what others had done that worked and making them "look right". > Given the extra effort and cost it takes to use these high strength materials > unless you are going to reduce the weight of the airplane, why bother. > And that ignores the increased risk of cracking by making these parts > from these more exotic materials if proper fabrication techniques are > not used. This design I believe was supposed to be simple and affordable > Just my 2 cents worth. > Les > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:48 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fittings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" John, keep in mind I am building a GN-1 which more complex bracket's and fittings than a Piet. Alot of my brackets are 4130 .090" with multiple angles, bends etc. I am the one who is getting the parts lasercut. Besides, it's coting me $120 to get all wing parts cut. I did the math and found that if I bought the steel from AS&S, the steel alone would cost $100. So for $20 more I get all 22 pieces cut.... and cut to within .005" accuracy. I believe Bernie's philosophy was use what you have at your disposal that is cheap and effective. My lasercutting process follows that idea 100%. It's going to be cheap and VERY effective. Why does Bernie's "philosophy" always have to mean "use materials and methods of 1930!". bullsh*t. Bernie may have used a 55 gallon drum for material. Great. 55 gallons drums were probably a plenty where he was at. In his day that was a great way to get cheap material. Does that mean we should use a 55 gallon drum? maybe.... but what I think it really means is we should use what is at our disposal.... DJ Vegh N74DV www.raptoronline.com Mesa, AZ > And while I'm on my soapbox, it is easy make the blanks in house using a metal cutting bandsaw with a 1/4" x 18 or 24 inch tooth blade. I made up my bandsaw from an old junk wood cutting bandsaw and then powered it with a gear motor to bring the cutting speed of the blade down. And if you need to make duplicate fittings, simply drill a couple of holes in a non-critical area of the fitting (you can call them mini lightning holes if you want), bolt the pieces together and then gang cut the blanks. The deburring can be done with a file, followed by a wire brush on your grinder, and then a Scotch Brite wheel on the grinder. Doesn't take long, costs a lot less and you can brag that you built everything yourself! > > Thanks for your time, > > John Dilatush NX114D This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:14 AM PST US From: "John Carmen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" Hmmm because it is fun to talk shop !!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > Perhaps someone could explain the great fascination that some group members > seem to have with making the brackets out of these high strength materials > like 4130 and 4140. In looking at the plans I have I see that the material > specified is "steel" which I assume back in 1930 was the equivalent of what > we can buy as 1018 or 1020 or similar. I don't imagine that Bernie did any > stress analysis on these parts. I would assume that he designed them by > copying what others had done that worked and making them "look right". > Given the extra effort and cost it takes to use these high strength materials > unless you are going to reduce the weight of the airplane, why bother. > And that ignores the increased risk of cracking by making these parts > from these more exotic materials if proper fabrication techniques are > not used. This design I believe was supposed to be simple and affordable > Just my 2 cents worth. > Les > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:42 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: landing gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; The plans indicate a dimension of 51" from the ground to the top of the top longeron with the original solid axle gear setup with 24"x4" wheels, measured in the flying attitude (not sitting on the tailwheel). My assumption is that there is nothing magic about that dimension, and in fact it seems that many Piets that use J-3 style gear sit a tad higher than that. Getting in and out of the cockpits would seem to be the most important factor to be considered when adjusting that dimension. While I don't expect folks to go run out and measure their Piets to check this, are there any offhand comments having to do with that dimension? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:51 AM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" With spring comming late and the wind we've been having, knew I had to do drastic measures. Today started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty of ceiling but threat of rain. got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after a few trips around the valley, broke out and headed up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by my DAR cause we don't have fuel at my home base. A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't been on before. It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and as soon as I climbed out, people came out of the woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple that I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and story. One of the guys was Paul Styger who owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous Sussex Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause they are having an antique fly-by for the 100th aniversary of flight. Anyone else within flying distance of here may keep this in mind to participate. On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my Mentors house. Then as I headed for home, looked and the windshields were cloudy. Realized it was rain. So all the way back flew in a light rain with the top of my head getting wet. An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I dreamed about since the first day I started laying out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. It's gets better that you can ever imagine. walt NX140DL I'm still smiling 8 hours down, and 17 to go. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:24 AM PST US From: tim moody Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tim moody I haven't even purchased plans yet, but reading this makes me itch really bad. Tim Moody --- walter evans wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > > With spring comming late and the wind we've been > having, knew I had to do drastic measures. Today > started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty of > ceiling but threat of rain. > got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after > a few trips around the valley, broke out and headed > up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by my DAR > cause we don't have fuel at my home base. > A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. > Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't > been on before. > It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and > as soon as I climbed out, people came out of the > woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple that > I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and > story. One of the guys was Paul Styger who > owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous Sussex > Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause > they are having an antique fly-by for the 100th > aniversary of flight. Anyone else within flying > distance of here may keep this in mind to > participate. > On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my > Mentors house. > Then as I headed for home, looked and the > windshields were cloudy. Realized it was rain. So > all the way back flew in a light rain with the top > of my head getting wet. > An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I > dreamed about since the first day I started laying > out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" > To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. > It's gets better that you can ever imagine. > walt > NX140DL > I'm still smiling > 8 hours down, and 17 to go. > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:09 AM PST US From: Les Schubert Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert Group Well I see I got a few responses and some people misinterpreted my intent. I think getting parts laser cut is a great idea especially as it seems cost effective. I also think using new material is a great idea especially as most of us don't have a source of 55 gal. drums and who knows what kind of material they use now as opposed to 1930.(I do know drums now are much lighter material than the ones made back then). I am all in favour of using good cheap components for a home built airplane. My concern is the assumption that by using a high strength alloy that we are automatically making a safer better plane. Material fatigue is to me the big concern. Generally speaking high strength steels do not as good a ductility and fatigue resistance as lower strength ones. I have never been able to tell by looking at something when it is about to crack, visual inspection will show you the cracks afterwards, maybe when it is too late. Engineers have spent countless hours researching the properties of materials. High strength materials generally are used when the application justifies it, not just because they are available. Incidentally I think I might go to the laser cut materials myself, but I will use the 1018/1020 material so I don't have to worry about fatigue cracking as much. And DJ my 1933 plans show metal struts, I haven't seen the wood ones but I would suspect wood ones would have flying wires with them, just a guess. Regards all Les ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:00 PM PST US From: "Maxime Gou" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Maxime Gou" please remove me from your list.... >From: "walter evans" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >To: "piet discussion" >Subject: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain >Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:26:58 -0400 > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > >With spring comming late and the wind we've been having, knew I had to do >drastic measures. Today started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty >of ceiling but threat of rain. >got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after a few trips around the >valley, broke out and headed up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by my >DAR cause we don't have fuel at my home base. >A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. >Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't been on before. >It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and as soon as I climbed >out, people came out of the woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple >that I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and story. One of the >guys was Paul Styger who owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous >Sussex Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause they are having >an antique fly-by for the 100th aniversary of flight. Anyone else within >flying distance of here may keep this in mind to participate. >On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my Mentors house. >Then as I headed for home, looked and the windshields were cloudy. >Realized it was rain. So all the way back flew in a light rain with the >top of my head getting wet. >An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I dreamed about since the >first day I started laying out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" >To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. It's gets better that you >can ever imagine. >walt >NX140DL >I'm still smiling >8 hours down, and 17 to go. > > MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:17 PM PST US From: "Maxime Gou" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Maxime Gou" please remove me from your list >From: tim moody >Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain >Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT) > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tim moody > >I haven't even purchased plans yet, but reading this >makes me itch really bad. > >Tim Moody >--- walter evans wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > > > > > With spring comming late and the wind we've been > > having, knew I had to do drastic measures. Today > > started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty of > > ceiling but threat of rain. > > got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after > > a few trips around the valley, broke out and headed > > up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by my DAR > > cause we don't have fuel at my home base. > > A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. > > Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't > > been on before. > > It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and > > as soon as I climbed out, people came out of the > > woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple that > > I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and > > story. One of the guys was Paul Styger who > > owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous Sussex > > Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause > > they are having an antique fly-by for the 100th > > aniversary of flight. Anyone else within flying > > distance of here may keep this in mind to > > participate. > > On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my > > Mentors house. > > Then as I headed for home, looked and the > > windshields were cloudy. Realized it was rain. So > > all the way back flew in a light rain with the top > > of my head getting wet. > > An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I > > dreamed about since the first day I started laying > > out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" > > To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. > > It's gets better that you can ever imagine. > > walt > > NX140DL > > I'm still smiling > > 8 hours down, and 17 to go. > > > > > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > latest messages. > > List members. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > >Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://search.yahoo.com > > MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://fr.ca.search.msn.com/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:31 PM PST US From: "rambog@erols.com" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: landing gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" That is how I built my gear, so that it met the 51" dimension because I have 24x4 wheels. Of course not flying yet so don't know how it is going to work out. Gene Original Message: ----------------- From: Oscar Zuniga taildrags@hotmail.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: landing gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; The plans indicate a dimension of 51" from the ground to the top of the top longeron with the original solid axle gear setup with 24"x4" wheels, measured in the flying attitude (not sitting on the tailwheel). My assumption is that there is nothing magic about that dimension, and in fact it seems that many Piets that use J-3 style gear sit a tad higher than that. Getting in and out of the cockpits would seem to be the most important factor to be considered when adjusting that dimension. While I don't expect folks to go run out and measure their Piets to check this, are there any offhand comments having to do with that dimension? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:51 PM PST US From: "rambog@erols.com" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" I neve thought of 4130 as an "exotic" material. While Bernie did use some other grade of mild steel (just as the manufacturers of the time, like Waco and Travel Air, used 1020 steel) there are some advances that have become universally accepted practices, such as using 4130 which, after all, is not really that expensive. Similiarly, Bernie may not have used AN hardware, but I think most everyone on here does. My 2 cents worth. Gene Original Message: ----------------- From: John Carmen jlcarmen@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" Hmmm because it is fun to talk shop !!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > Perhaps someone could explain the great fascination that some group members > seem to have with making the brackets out of these high strength materials > like 4130 and 4140. In looking at the plans I have I see that the material > specified is "steel" which I assume back in 1930 was the equivalent of what > we can buy as 1018 or 1020 or similar. I don't imagine that Bernie did any > stress analysis on these parts. I would assume that he designed them by > copying what others had done that worked and making them "look right". > Given the extra effort and cost it takes to use these high strength materials > unless you are going to reduce the weight of the airplane, why bother. > And that ignores the increased risk of cracking by making these parts > from these more exotic materials if proper fabrication techniques are > not used. This design I believe was supposed to be simple and affordable > Just my 2 cents worth. > Les > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:03 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" dude..... go here to be removed http://www.matronics.com/subscription DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Maxime Gou To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Maxime Gou" please remove me from your list.... = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:10 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" thanks for the followup Les.... I did misinterpret your statements i guess. your points are well taken DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Les Schubert To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: bracket materials --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert Group Well I see I got a few responses and some people misinterpreted my intent. I think getting parts laser cut is a great idea especially as it seems cost effective. I also think using new material is a great idea especially as most of us don't have a source of 55 gal. drums and who knows what kind of material they use now as opposed to 1930.(I do know drums now are much lighter material than the ones made back then). I am all in favour of using good cheap components for a home built airplane. My concern is the assumption that by using a high strength alloy that we are automatically making a safer better plane. Material fatigue is to me the big concern. Generally speaking high strength steels do not as good a ductility and fatigue resistance as lower strength ones. I have never been able to tell by looking at something when it is about to crack, visual inspection will show you the cracks afterwards, maybe when it is too late. Engineers have spent countless hours researching the properties of materials. High strength materials generally are used when the application justifies it, not just because they are available. Incidentally I think I might go to the laser cut materials myself, but I will use the 1018/1020 material so I don't have to worry about fatigue cracking as much. And DJ my 1933 plans show metal struts, I haven't seen the wood ones but I would suspect wood ones would have flying wires with them, just a guess. Regards all Les = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:45 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fittings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" Pieters, In case anyone cares, I didn't use 55 gal drums in building my plane. I used 4130 throughout. I only related the story about Bernie Pietenpol to illustrate the apparent strength tolerance that is designed into the plane. John Dilatush NX114D ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: landing gear From: cat_designs@juno.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: cat_designs@juno.com Gene, Where did you get the 24x4 wheels? I'll assume you had to make them. What kind of rims did you use? How do they look on your plane? I don't recall anyone having use this size before. I usually hear 17 to 18 inch rims being used. Got any pictures? Inquiring minds want to know how you did this. Chris Sacramento, CA (don't even ask if I have been working on the plane lately, the answer is full of excuses) The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:08 PM PST US From: "walter evans" "Fishnet" Subject: Pietenpol-List: adjusting the idle mixture on a stromberg w/A-65 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Had some trouble today,,,added power from idle on final and it belched some black smoke and wanted to quit. Jazzed the throttle till it came back. Maybe I'm adjusting the idle mixture wrong,,,is CW(in) leaner? and what setting is the norm? Does the screw adjust fuel or air? thanks walt@8hrs ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:48 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Bob, It was me comming home at about 1315 or so. My plan it to do the curcuit again tomorrow, as many times to Sussex and back till I need fuel. Then get fuel and do it some more. walt do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: twocoolgliders@juno.com To: wbeevans@worldnet.att.net Cc: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: Re: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain Walt, I must have just messed you today at Sussex. I saw your plane, at a distance, as I was driving up to the Airport......Probably when you were heading over to Lafayette. I wasn't sure what kind of plane I was seeing, at the time, but now I realize it was the Pietenpol! Bob Cook On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:26:58 -0400 "walter evans" writes: With spring comming late and the wind we've been having, knew I had to do drastic measures. Today started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty of ceiling but threat of rain. got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after a few trips around the valley, broke out and headed up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by my DAR cause we don't have fuel at my home base. A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't been on before. It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and as soon as I climbed out, people came out of the woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple that I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and story. One of the guys was Paul Styger who owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous Sussex Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause they are having an antique fly-by for the 100th aniversary of flight. Anyone else within flying distance of here may keep this in mind to participate. On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my Mentors house. Then as I headed for home, looked and the windshields were cloudy. Realized it was rain. So all the way back flew in a light rain with the top of my head getting wet. An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I dreamed about since the first day I started laying out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. It's gets better that you can ever imagine. walt NX140DL I'm still smiling 8 hours down, and 17 to go. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:35 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: landing gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" These are original 24x4 wire wheels which I do not believe have ever been mounted on an airplane. I disassembled them and bead blasted and painted them and installed all new spokes from Buchanans. I would like to sell them, however, if you are interested. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: landing gear > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: cat_designs@juno.com > > > Gene, > Where did you get the 24x4 wheels? I'll assume you had to make them. What kind of rims did you use? How do they look on your plane? I don't recall anyone having use this size before. I usually hear 17 to 18 inch rims being used. Got any pictures? Inquiring minds want to know how you did this. > > Chris > Sacramento, CA > (don't even ask if I have been working on the plane lately, the answer is full of excuses) > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:46 PM PST US From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" Way to go Walt.. Just finished my rudder and vertical fin. Elevators laid out and wil be glued up this weekend. Can't wait until I can report 8 down 17 to go. Ken GN1 2992 Earning is fast and fun with Free Store Club! Get an online SUPER STORE FREE! Start saving BIG! Start earning BIG! It's NEW, FREE, and HOT! http://729192049.freestoreclub.com --- Free Travel Accommodations --- 3 days, 2 night accommodations at any of 19 prime locations. Why pay high costs? Get Yours Before This Free Offer Expires - Click Here http://www.referralware.com/home.jsp/729192049 Go to free Bonuses ----- Original Message ----- From: "walter evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > With spring comming late and the wind we've been having, knew I had to do drastic measures. Today started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty of ceiling but threat of rain. > got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after a few trips around the valley, broke out and headed up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by my DAR cause we don't have fuel at my home base. > A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. > Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't been on before. > It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and as soon as I climbed out, people came out of the woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple that I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and story. One of the guys was Paul Styger who owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous Sussex Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause they are having an antique fly-by for the 100th aniversary of flight. Anyone else within flying distance of here may keep this in mind to participate. > On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my Mentors house. > Then as I headed for home, looked and the windshields were cloudy. Realized it was rain. So all the way back flew in a light rain with the top of my head getting wet. > An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I dreamed about since the first day I started laying out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" > To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. It's gets better that you can ever imagine. > walt > NX140DL > I'm still smiling > 8 hours down, and 17 to go. > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:45 PM PST US From: "George Allen" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "George Allen" Hi group. I have an A-65 Cont. I'm doing a top on. Is there some secret recipe for getting the carbon off the piston and the chamber? I'm afraid of scratching them. I've tried Marvel Mystery Oil, but it doesn't seem to do anything. It was a suggestion from an A&P. Anybody know anything that works? I'm trying to get my Flybaby back in the air so I can go back to Peit building. Thanks group George Allen Harrisburg, PA GeorgeA@PAonline.com (Peitenpol builder) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:22 PM PST US From: "John Carmen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Carmen" try gun cleaning solvent, I used it and it works, don't let it soak to long or might eat aluminum. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Allen" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "George Allen" > > Hi group. I have an A-65 Cont. I'm doing a top on. Is there some secret recipe for getting the carbon off the piston and the chamber? I'm afraid of scratching them. I've tried Marvel Mystery Oil, but it doesn't seem to do anything. It was a suggestion from an A&P. > Anybody know anything that works? I'm trying to get my Flybaby back in the air so I can go back to Peit building. > > Thanks group > > > George Allen > Harrisburg, PA > GeorgeA@PAonline.com > (Peitenpol builder) > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:23 PM PST US From: "walter evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" Ken, Funny how human nature is. The grass is always greener on the other side, you know. It's nice to fly, but get that day that is dreary, and I long for a project to work on. I WILL have a project by this fall. Aronca C-3 , if I can find some infro on them. Want to build one from scratch. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" > > Way to go Walt.. > > Just finished my rudder and vertical fin. Elevators laid out and wil be > glued up this weekend. Can't wait until I can report 8 down 17 to go. > > Ken > > GN1 2992 > > > Earning is fast and fun with Free Store Club! Get an online SUPER STORE > FREE! Start saving BIG! Start earning BIG! It's NEW, FREE, and HOT! > http://729192049.freestoreclub.com > > --- Free Travel Accommodations --- > 3 days, 2 night accommodations at any of 19 prime locations. Why pay > high costs? Get Yours Before This Free Offer Expires - Click Here > http://www.referralware.com/home.jsp/729192049 > Go to free Bonuses > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "walter evans" > To: "piet discussion" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: two firsts today,,,"visiting" and rain > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walter evans" > > > > > With spring comming late and the wind we've been having, knew I had to do > drastic measures. Today started with a breeze and overcast skies. Plenty > of ceiling but threat of rain. > > got into my snowmobile suit, and away I went. after a few trips around > the valley, broke out and headed up to Sussex Airport. This is allowed by > my DAR cause we don't have fuel at my home base. > > A big whopping 15 miles or so. Trip went great. > > Nice to taxi on a tarmac that the Pietenpol hasn't been on before. > > It was great to pull up , with no one outside, and as soon as I climbed > out, people came out of the woodwork. Couple of guys I knew, and a couple > that I didn't. All amazed at the Pietenpol look and story. One of the > guys was Paul Styger who owns Sussex Airport, and puts on the famous > Sussex Airshow. Asked me if I would be in the show, cause they are having > an antique fly-by for the 100th aniversary of flight. Anyone else within > flying distance of here may keep this in mind to participate. > > On the way back I detoured a little to fly over my Mentors house. > > Then as I headed for home, looked and the windshields were cloudy. > Realized it was rain. So all the way back flew in a light rain with the top > of my head getting wet. > > An exciting day. Now the fun is starting that I dreamed about since the > first day I started laying out longerons,,,The adventures of "visiting" > > To all of you who are building,,,keep plugging. It's gets better that you > can ever imagine. > > walt > > NX140DL > > I'm still smiling > > 8 hours down, and 17 to go. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:18 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Methylene Chloride paint stripper but use caution out side for good ventilation as the fumes are toxic. You can also take to an auto engine rebuild and they have a tank which will take it off. Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Allen" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "George Allen" > > Hi group. I have an A-65 Cont. I'm doing a top on. Is there some secret recipe for getting the carbon off the piston and the chamber? I'm afraid of scratching them. I've tried Marvel Mystery Oil, but it doesn't seem to do anything. It was a suggestion from an A&P. > Anybody know anything that works? I'm trying to get my Flybaby back in the air so I can go back to Peit building. > > Thanks group > > > George Allen > Harrisburg, PA > GeorgeA@PAonline.com > (Peitenpol builder) > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:10 PM PST US From: "Wayne McIntosh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Wayne McIntosh" George, We ultralight flyers have to decarbon our 2 stroke engines and we use either a wedge of hardwood or a piece of aluminum about 1/8" thick that is sharpened like a chisel. You still have to be careful. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Allen" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "George Allen" > > Hi group. I have an A-65 Cont. I'm doing a top on. Is there some secret recipe for getting the carbon off the piston and the chamber? I'm afraid of scratching them. I've tried Marvel Mystery Oil, but it doesn't seem to do anything. It was a suggestion from an A&P. > Anybody know anything that works? I'm trying to get my Flybaby back in the air so I can go back to Peit building. > > Thanks group > > > George Allen > Harrisburg, PA > GeorgeA@PAonline.com > (Peitenpol builder) > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:12 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" George, A gallon or three cans of carb cleaner does the trick for me. The chem tool kind that you soak the part in. It is chromic acid along with some other stuff adn it pulls off the carbon in minutes. They sell a 1 gal paint style can that has a little basket in it. I would NOT buy that one. Instead, get a few 1 gallon cans that looks like a paint thinner can of chemtool. Find a metal pail of some sort that has a sealable lid and use that. I have about three gallons of chemtool in a 5 gallon metal paint can like the type that driveway sealer comes in. You can buy these can new at paint stores. They have a sealable lid. A metal basket is nice but not necessary. You can make one out of a metal kitchen strainer. This is nasty stuff and you need rubber gloves and eye protection. I get the gallon cans of chemtool at the local Checker Auto parts store for about 13 dollars a gallon. If your store stocks chemtool products they can order it for you. They also sell a 5 gallon pail with a basket and three gallon already in it but it might cost upwards of 75 bucks. It is cheaper to cobble it together. They used to sell the 5 gallon pail at Sam's Wholesale Club but I have not seen it there for about 6 or so years. It was about 60 dollars at the time. chris bobka -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of George Allen Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carbon buildup --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "George Allen" Hi group. I have an A-65 Cont. I'm doing a top on. Is there some secret recipe for getting the carbon off the piston and the chamber? I'm afraid of scratching them. I've tried Marvel Mystery Oil, but it doesn't seem to do anything. It was a suggestion from an A&P. Anybody know anything that works? I'm trying to get my Flybaby back in the air so I can go back to Peit building. Thanks group George Allen Harrisburg, PA GeorgeA@PAonline.com (Peitenpol builder)