Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Tue 06/10/03


Total Messages Posted: 28



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:04 AM - Re: questions (clif)
     2. 12:24 AM - Re: Travel Air Model A aero engine (clif)
     3. 04:16 AM - Swap meet (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     4. 04:27 AM - Re: questions (Gene Rambo)
     5. 04:43 AM - Glues and plywood (rhartwig11@juno.com)
     6. 05:07 AM - save your back--leave the firewall for last (Michael D Cuy)
     7. 05:19 AM - Re: save your back--leave the firewall for last (Ken Rickards)
     8. 05:26 AM - Re: Glues and plywood (rambog@erols.com)
     9. 06:50 AM - Questions (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
    10. 07:26 AM - Re: Questions (rambog@erols.com)
    11. 07:26 AM - Minimum Bend Radiuses (Barry Davis)
    12. 08:27 AM - Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses (cat_designs@juno.com)
    13. 08:29 AM - Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses (Cy Galley)
    14. 08:44 AM - Re: C-85 temperature bulb adapter  (Richard Navratril)
    15. 08:57 AM - Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses (Cy Galley)
    16. 09:28 AM - Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses (Kent Hallsten)
    17. 11:37 AM - Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses (cat_designs@juno.com)
    18. 12:22 PM - Re: save your back--leave the firewall for last (w b evans)
    19. 04:42 PM - Laser cut order from EmachineShop (DJ Vegh)
    20. 04:51 PM - Re: Laser cut order from EmachineShop (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
    21. 05:19 PM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 06/09/03 (ANNCARLEK@aol.com)
    22. 05:27 PM - Re: Laser cut order from EmachineShop (DJ Vegh)
    23. 05:35 PM - Re: Laser cut order from EmachineShop (Ken & Lisa Rickards)
    24. 06:35 PM - Re: Glues and plywood (Jack Phillips)
    25. 06:40 PM - Angle of Incidence (DJ Vegh)
    26. 07:16 PM - Re: Glues and plywood (Gene Rambo)
    27. 10:00 PM - Laser cut order from EmachineShop - pics (DJ Vegh)
    28. 11:20 PM - Re: Glues and plywood (clif)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:04:44 AM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: questions
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> There's a time factor here. How long do you want your plane sound? Aerolite was considered the only safe AC glue at one time but I had some of it come apart in my hand 10 yrs after the fact. It was all grainy in there. In the fifties some guy bought a couple of Mossy's ( DH Mosquito's) and was transfering them across country. He landed at an airport back east and as he was taxiing out for takeoff one of the wings fell apart. All the Aerolite joints gave up the ghost! A proper joint with any wood glue should break in the wood and be fine in interior conditions for years. Look at violins ( rabbit glue ) and guitars. The stress from tuned strings is enormous. I made my first steel string flat top 25 yrs ago with yellow glue and I expect it to outlive me by a rather large margine. Would there be anything wrong with leaving the mounts long, resting the engine on them and sliding it back and forth to find the balance point? Cut them off afterwards. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: <rambog@erols.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com> > > > I didn't mean to suggest that I am using Titebond, just that it is strong > stuff, stronger than I would have thought. Name a glue that does not break > down after several months outside without any protection. Aircraft plywood > does not last through one good wetting without delaminating. I am, > however, using titebond for small non-structural items like filler blocks. > If it is well varnished, it could probably be used for everything NOT THAT > I AM DOING IT. > > Gene


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:24:11 AM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Travel Air Model A aero engine
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> That's quite a weight difference from the 244 lb listed in the 1932 flying and glider manual. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: <rhartwig11@juno.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Travel Air Model A aero engine> Specifications: > Engine basic weight including dual carbs, dual ignition, exhaust pipes, > alternator 196 lbs. > Aluminum radiator and coolant - 22 lbs > Starter Assembly - 10 lbs. > Note - Weight can be reduced by using single ignition, single carb. and > manual start. >


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:16:57 AM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Swap meet
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Pieters and others, Am leaving La for a few days in Arkansas this morning. Have a trailer load of goodies, Model T and old 4 cyl Dodge Bros parts. Swap meet is at Petit Jean State Park. They have a nice airport also. If any Pieters are thinking of attending check spot # B-15. Corky


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:27:57 AM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: questions
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Again, I was not recommending the use of Titebond, just relating an interesting incident. As for leaving the mount long and slilding the engine, that is an excellent idea with one question, though, would it matter if the engine sat farther forward on the mount legs if I did it that way (unless I could rig up a temporary mount and rebuild it after deciding on a length) I mostly wanted to know if any other Model A person made his mount longer. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "clif" <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> > > There's a time factor here. How long do you want > your plane sound? Aerolite was considered the > only safe AC glue at one time but I had some of it > come apart in my hand 10 yrs after the fact. It was > all grainy in there. In the fifties some guy bought a > couple of Mossy's ( DH Mosquito's) and was > transfering them across country. He landed at an > airport back east and as he was taxiing out for > takeoff one of the wings fell apart. All the Aerolite > joints gave up the ghost! > A proper joint with any wood glue should break > in the wood and be fine in interior conditions for > years. Look at violins ( rabbit glue ) and guitars. > The stress from tuned strings is enormous. I made > my first steel string flat top 25 yrs ago with yellow > glue and I expect it to outlive me by a rather large > margine. > > Would there be anything wrong with leaving the > mounts long, resting the engine on them and > sliding it back and forth to find the balance point? > Cut them off afterwards. > > Clif > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <rambog@erols.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: questions > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" > <rambog@erols.com> > > > > > > I didn't mean to suggest that I am using Titebond, just that it is strong > > stuff, stronger than I would have thought. Name a glue that does not > break > > down after several months outside without any protection. Aircraft > plywood > > does not last through one good wetting without delaminating. I am, > > however, using titebond for small non-structural items like filler blocks. > > If it is well varnished, it could probably be used for everything NOT THAT > > I AM DOING IT. > > > > Gene > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:43:42 AM PST US
    Subject: Glues and plywood
    From: rhartwig11@juno.com
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com Glues Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted. The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for structural work on aircraft. Plywood I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would use in an aircraft without first testing a sample. Dick Hartwig


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:07:59 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: save your back--leave the firewall for last
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Frank Pavliga told me to leave my firewall off til the very end of construction so I could easily lean in from the front and install things like front rudder pedals, aileron torque tube guide, service lines coming to and from the engine compartment. I made the firewall very early in the building process but only had it held in place by wood screws, not glue. Only until my white posterboard firewall template had all the holes and markings for things like oil pressure, throttle, tachometer cable, oil temperature, carb heat, and smoke oil line did I transfer those marks to the 1/8" plywood firewall and cut them out. Then I broke out the T-88 and glued it in place. Mike C.


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:19:31 AM PST US
    From: Ken Rickards <krickards@cvci.com>
    Subject: save your back--leave the firewall for last
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ken Rickards <krickards@cvci.com> Thanks for the information Mike. To new builders, like myself, it's nice to have so much experience to fall back on. It's little bit's of information like this that will take the frustration out of building. Ken GN1 2992 Canada -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Cuy [mailto:Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov] Subject: Pietenpol-List: save your back--leave the firewall for last --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Frank Pavliga told me to leave my firewall off til the very end of construction so I could easily lean in from the front and install things like front rudder pedals, aileron torque tube guide, service lines coming to and from the engine compartment. I made the firewall very early in the building process but only had it held in place by wood screws, not glue. Only until my white posterboard firewall template had all the holes and markings for things like oil pressure, throttle, tachometer cable, oil temperature, carb heat, and smoke oil line did I transfer those marks to the 1/8" plywood firewall and cut them out. Then I broke out the T-88 and glued it in place. Mike C.


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:26:32 AM PST US
    From: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Glues and plywood
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com> I'm sorry I brought it up. Gene Original Message: ----------------- From: rhartwig11@juno.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com Glues Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted. The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for structural work on aircraft. Plywood I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would use in an aircraft without first testing a sample. Dick Hartwig


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:50:55 AM PST US
    From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
    Subject: Questions
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Gene: ( re-low response to some questions ) I for one sometimes am a little bit leary about making suggestions about what I am doing because I haven't flown yet and my suggestions may not prove out in flight, then I would feel bad for passing along an idea that turned out to be crap, but here is what I am doing on my engine mt. I am extending my ash engine mt. 4 inches longer than the plans. The main reason is because on the engine I bought ( already converted ) the builder didn't shorten the water pump as shown on the plans. Also the Fairbanks Morris mag. has a long slender input shaft making the engine length longer than the plans. If I didn't move the engine foreward I would need to cut a hole in the back of the shelf for the end of the mag. Another reason, Ken Perkins ( Orange and cream Piet - Brodhead last 3 years ) with a tail wheel, no wing slant back, at least 230 lbs had to remake his engine mt. 7 in longer to properly balance it. Also, Chuck Ganzer- ( no small guy, but looks slim next to Ken ) with a tail skid and wing moved back 4 in. had to cast a 14 lb. lead doughnut which he placed on the Model A's nose behind the cowling nose bowl. I'm hoping 4 in. extension works for me. If anything I would like to be nose heavy during weigh in, then I can balance it with a few oz.'s of lead or something on the tail. Leon S.


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:26:14 AM PST US
    From: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Questions
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com> Thanks Leon, don't ever doubt your opinions. Are you planning to make the engine mount tubing extend all the way out to the end of the ash as well? What about drop, are you making the downthrust one inch at the 21 1/2 inch point as per the plans (I don't remember what the plans say, something like that)so that the drop at the end of your extended mount will be lower, although at the same angle as the plans? Gene Original Message: ----------------- From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Gene: ( re-low response to some questions ) I for one sometimes am a little bit leary about making suggestions about what I am doing because I haven't flown yet and my suggestions may not prove out in flight, then I would feel bad for passing along an idea that turned out to be crap, but here is what I am doing on my engine mt. I am extending my ash engine mt. 4 inches longer than the plans. The main reason is because on the engine I bought ( already converted ) the builder didn't shorten the water pump as shown on the plans. Also the Fairbanks Morris mag. has a long slender input shaft making the engine length longer than the plans. If I didn't move the engine foreward I would need to cut a hole in the back of the shelf for the end of the mag. Another reason, Ken Perkins ( Orange and cream Piet - Brodhead last 3 years ) with a tail wheel, no wing slant back, at least 230 lbs had to remake his engine mt. 7 in longer to properly balance it. Also, Chuck Ganzer- ( no small guy, but looks slim next to Ken ) with a tail skid and wing moved back 4 in. had to cast a 14 lb. lead doughnut which he placed on the Model A's nose behind the cowling nose bowl. I'm hoping 4 in. extension works for me. If anything I would like to be nose heavy during weigh in, then I can balance it with a few oz.'s of lead or something on the tail. Leon S.


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:26:43 AM PST US
    From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Minimum Bend Radiuses
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now when we need one, presto! they are hiding. Thanks Barry Davis Bought another Corvair yesterday and assembled and glued another wing panel last night, only 9 more to go. Wheee


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:27:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses
    From: cat_designs@juno.com
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: cat_designs@juno.com Barry, what do you mean by bend chart? If you are talking about minimum radius of bends in 4130 I believe it's 1 x the thickness. Chris Sacramento, CA --- "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now when we need one, presto! they are hiding. Thanks Barry Davis Bought another Corvair yesterday and assembled and glued another wing panel last night, only 9 more to go. Wheee The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:29:49 AM PST US
    From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
    Subject: Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> Page 60 of my Aircraft Spruce catalog. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Minimum Bend Radiuses > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> > > Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now when we need one, presto! they are hiding. > Thanks > Barry Davis > > Bought another Corvair yesterday and assembled and glued another wing panel last night, only 9 more to go. Wheee > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:44:52 AM PST US
    From: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re: C-85 temperature bulb adapter
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" <horzpool@goldengate.net> Bill I went thru this a while back. I'm not sure which one the C-85 uses and I had to order and return a couple of times. Try Wag Aero catalog p/n A-007100 or A-007200 pg 13 . I have a A-65 so it may not be the same one. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre@boeing.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: C-85 temperature bulb adapter > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre@boeing.com> > > Looking for the adapter that fits in the oil-screen of a C-85 for the temperature bulb. The one I have fits a 3/8 inch capillary tube and I need one for 7/16 diameter. Help in locating one would be appreciated. > > Bill Sayre > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:57:21 AM PST US
    From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
    Subject: Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> Air Craft Spruce says 3 times the thickness. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: <cat_designs@juno.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Minimum Bend Radiuses > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: cat_designs@juno.com > > > Barry, what do you mean by bend chart? If you are talking about minimum radius of bends in 4130 I believe it's 1 x the thickness. > > > Chris > Sacramento, CA > > --- "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> > > Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now when we need one, presto! they are hiding. > Thanks > Barry Davis > > Bought another Corvair yesterday and assembled and glued another wing panel last night, only 9 more to go. Wheee > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 09:28:31 AM PST US
    Subject: Minimum Bend Radiuses
    From: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com> I think I saw a chart in one of the Tony Bingelis books? Don't know which one, sorry. Kent Hallsten OKC > -----Original Message----- > From: Barry Davis [mailto:bed@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:27 AM > To: Pietenpol-List Digest Server > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Minimum Bend Radiuses > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" > <bed@mindspring.com> > > Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where > to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now > when we need one, presto! they are hiding. > Thanks > Barry Davis


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:37:24 AM PST US
    Subject: Minimum Bend Radiuses
    From: cat_designs@juno.com
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: cat_designs@juno.com This is where I got the information from: Making Fittings - Part 2 Sport Aviation - 10/80 By Tony Bingelis 1x thickness for 0.016 0.032 0.064 0.125 0.188 0.25 4130 steel Same as the table in his book Chris Sacramento, CA --- "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com> wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com> I think I saw a chart in one of the Tony Bingelis books? Don't know which one, sorry. Kent Hallsten OKC > -----Original Message----- > From: Barry Davis [mailto:bed@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:27 AM > To: Pietenpol-List Digest Server > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Minimum Bend Radiuses > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" > <bed@mindspring.com> > > Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where > to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now > when we need one, presto! they are hiding. > Thanks > Barry Davis The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!


    Message 18


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    Time: 12:22:41 PM PST US
    From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: save your back--leave the firewall for last
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> I kind of did the same thing, but when I finally put it in I cut a hole( about 6" dia or big enough to fit a hand thru) in both the firewall ply in the center of the lower section below the ash crossmember. And also one under the fwd tank ply. Made it accessable right up to the steel firewall installation. walt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: save your back--leave the firewall for last > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > Frank Pavliga told me to leave my firewall off til the very end of > construction so I could easily lean in from the > front and install things like front rudder pedals, aileron torque tube > guide, service lines coming to and from the engine > compartment. I made the firewall very early in the building process but > only had it held in place by wood screws, not > glue. Only until my white posterboard firewall template had all the holes > and markings for things like oil pressure, throttle, > tachometer cable, oil temperature, carb heat, and smoke oil line did I > transfer those marks to the 1/8" plywood firewall and cut > them out. Then I broke out the T-88 and glued it in place. > > Mike C. > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 04:42:18 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Laser cut order from EmachineShop
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> Well.... GOOD NEWS! I just got my order in from EmachineShop.com. I have three words.... OH MY GOD! The quality is PERFECT. All laser cut to within +/- .005". I had a total of 36 pieces cut. Wing spar plates, rudder & elevator horns, lugs, cabane plates... I had 4 of all the parts cut for two reasons... it was cheaper and because I figured at some point some GN-1 Builders would benefit from having them available since Replicraft evaporated. Cost was INSANELy cheap.... $170 for 36 pieces. Some pieces are over 13" long and 6" wide. This place is VERY inexpensive and the quality is top notch. I will post pics on my site tonight or tomorrow. If you need any steel or aluminum parts precision machined emachineshop.com is the place to go... DJ Vegh www.imagedv.com/aircamper This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 20


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    Time: 04:51:42 PM PST US
    From: BARNSTMR@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Laser cut order from EmachineShop
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com What materials are your e-machine shop parts? Do they provide paperwork proving the materials were what you ordered? Terry B


    Message 21


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    Time: 05:19:17 PM PST US
    From: ANNCARLEK@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 06/09/03
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ANNCARLEK@aol.com In a message dated 6/9/03 11:57:12 PM, pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com writes: << > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Rickards" <krickards@cvci.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Longeron > ++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Ken, > >> I know that the bottom longerons can be bent dry, and that they should be about a foot longer so they can be wired until the gussets are in on both sides. But I laminated mine using three strips i/3" thick, on the fuse jig. This was such a pleasure to work with that I wouldn't even consider anything else, were I to build another Piet. And there is very little residual stress left with this method. The T-88 was great to use to laminate. Carl at the Compton Airport


    Message 22


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    Time: 05:27:23 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Re: Laser cut order from EmachineShop
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> My parts were 4140 normalized steel. They did not provide any certification papers as they are not an "aircraft" machine shop... but they assured me the metal is what it is supposed to be.... It sure looks and feels like 4140. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper - ----- Original Message ----- From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Laser cut order from EmachineShop > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com > > What materials are your e-machine shop parts? Do they provide paperwork > proving the materials were what you ordered? > > Terry B > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 23


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    Time: 05:35:47 PM PST US
    From: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca>
    Subject: Re: Laser cut order from EmachineShop
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken & Lisa Rickards" <KL0914@cogeco.ca> Hey DJ, I'll take one of each. Just let me know how much I owe you. As soon as you have the price could you give me a guestimate on the weight and I'll sort out the shipping. Thanks, Ken GN1 2992 Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Laser cut order from EmachineShop > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> > > Well.... GOOD NEWS! > > I just got my order in from EmachineShop.com. > > I have three words.... > > OH MY GOD! > > The quality is PERFECT. All laser cut to within +/- .005". I had a total > of 36 pieces cut. Wing spar plates, rudder & elevator horns, lugs, cabane > plates... > > I had 4 of all the parts cut for two reasons... it was cheaper and because > I figured at some point some GN-1 Builders would benefit from having them > available since Replicraft evaporated. > > Cost was INSANELy cheap.... $170 for 36 pieces. Some pieces are over 13" > long and 6" wide. This place is VERY inexpensive and the quality is top > notch. > > I will post pics on my site tonight or tomorrow. > > If you need any steel or aluminum parts precision machined emachineshop.com > is the place to go... > > DJ Vegh > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>. > >


    Message 24


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    Time: 06:35:12 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Glues and plywood
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Yeah, Gene - you've been around this list long enough to know that there are certain topics, like what glue to use, or whether Douglas Fir is as good as Sitka Spruce that just naturally stir up the discussions, because everybody's got an opinion on them. I'm getting in the short rows on mine, now. Got the left wing covered and ribstitched this past weekend. I'm starting to believe I'll actually fly it a few more months. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rambog@erols.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com> I'm sorry I brought it up. Gene Original Message: ----------------- From: rhartwig11@juno.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com Glues Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted. The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for structural work on aircraft. Plywood I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would use in an aircraft without first testing a sample. Dick Hartwig


    Message 25


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    Time: 06:40:39 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Angle of Incidence
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> What is the recommended AOI for a Piet airfoil? According to my calculations, my AOI is .56 degrees. When taking my measurements, I assumed the chord line to be at the center of the radius of the L.E. to the center of the T.E. I then referenced this angle to the top longeron. Seems to me that the AOI should be around 1 or 1.5 degrees DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper - This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 26


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    Time: 07:16:31 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: Glues and plywood
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> You are my hero!! I am glad to hear you are so close. As for issues, I think it is about time we re-hash, let me see, how about how to make/get wire wheels, or maybe whether house latex paint is good enough, or maybe whether cardboard can be pressed into a laminated spar and save 15 cents. Thanks for all of your sage advice, mainly how to make the gear. I made a working pattern that is dead on using your method. I made cardboard patterns and then cut out and bent the steel fittings (no holes yet) I bought the spruce and cut all of the angles on the top and bottom of the side legs, and I just received the ash bottom pieces all cut to size and length. Now I just have to get up the nerve to clamp it all together and drill the fitting holes. I assume I will pre-drill the inner (probably) fittings, clamp them in place, and drill through to the outer. What I am debating right now is somehow glueing the sides and ash bottom together first to make it a little easier. Did you? I was helping my friend with his house the other day (the one who builds wooden airplanes, too) and we were playing with his biscuit cutter. I am now debating cutting and installing biscuits to hole the side vees together while I attach the lower fittings. The upper fittings are only partially cut out. As for streamlining, did you do it after it was all bolted together? Is it easier than it looks, or harder? Did you end the streamlining several inches from each end or carry it all the way to the ends? Too much to do. I still want to get down to see yours . . .maybe first flight?????? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> > > Yeah, Gene - you've been around this list long enough to know that there are > certain topics, like what glue to use, or whether Douglas Fir is as good as > Sitka Spruce that just naturally stir up the discussions, because > everybody's got an opinion on them. > > I'm getting in the short rows on mine, now. Got the left wing covered and > ribstitched this past weekend. I'm starting to believe I'll actually fly it > a few more months. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > rambog@erols.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:26 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com> > > > I'm sorry I brought it up. > > Gene > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: rhartwig11@juno.com > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:42:31 -0500 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com > > Glues > Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the > surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for > aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues > for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the > brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for > aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some > are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and > Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints > made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted. > > The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at > one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think > I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is > not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing > pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders > have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As > long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for > structural work on aircraft. > > Plywood > I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing > consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and > then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again > and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will > delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of > summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. > Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are > boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for > underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could > not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would > use in an aircraft without first testing a sample. > Dick Hartwig > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 10:00:02 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Laser cut order from EmachineShop - pics
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> Here's a couple shots of some of the parts http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/Log/image-pages/06-10-03.htm DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper _ This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit <http://www.halfpricehosting.com/av.asp>.


    Message 28


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    Time: 11:20:20 PM PST US
    From: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Glues and plywood
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif <cdawson5854@shaw.ca> Gene,Don't be sorry! You did make it perfectly clear you weren't going to use it. But somewhere down the road some neubie builder will read these archived posts, throw away the hardware store glue he thought was OK and buy the right stuff. You will have saved his butt. ----- Original Message ----- From: <rambog@erols.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" <rambog@erols.com> > > > I'm sorry I brought it up.




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