---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/11/03: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:22 AM - Re: Minimum Bend Radiuses (clif) 2. 05:18 AM - Re: Glues and plywood (Jack Phillips) 3. 06:22 AM - Ford engine mt. (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 4. 06:34 AM - Re: STOL Piet (john e fay) 5. 07:04 AM - 13" long x 6" wide (Michael D Cuy) 6. 07:18 AM - biscuits and streamlining (Michael D Cuy) 7. 07:24 AM - Re: 13" long x 6" wide (DJ Vegh) 8. 10:23 AM - data plates (Oscar Zuniga) 9. 10:25 AM - data plates- P.S. (Oscar Zuniga) 10. 10:59 AM - Re: data plates (Michael D Cuy) 11. 11:07 AM - BPA news & the discussion group (Michael D Cuy) 12. 03:08 PM - pics of my modified rudder bar (w b evans) 13. 03:10 PM - Re: Glues and plywood (Richard Navratril) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:12 AM PST US From: clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Minimum Bend Radiuses --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: clif EAA Sportplane-January2003-p94. Bend radius chart on p96. Below is an excel spread sheet program that will calculate your entire bracket layout. Kitplanes-May2001-Brackets The Easy Way-p37 Download the excel program here; http://www.kitplanes.com/features/supplements/brackets.xls Calculates everything. Look here under basic construction then to the three " making fittings articles http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/list.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Minimum Bend Radiuses > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" > > Does anyone have a bend chart for 4130 fittings or know where to download one. I have seen many over the years, but now when we need one, presto! they are hiding. > Thanks > Barry Davis > > Bought another Corvair yesterday and assembled and glued another wing panel last night, only 9 more to go. Wheee > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:23 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Good Questions, Gene ... I did not glue the "V" blocks to the struts, but just allowed the fittings to hold them in place. I drilled the holes in one set of fittings (I think I drilled the outside fittings first) then clamped everything together and drilled through the outside fittings just barely into the wood, took everything apart and drilled all the way through the wood on the drill press so the holes stayed nice and straight and perpendicular, then clamped it all back together and drilled through the inside fittings. I streamlined the struts after all the drilling was done (which is one reason why I didn't glue the struts to the V blocks. I left the ends square so they would give as much bearing area on the fittings as possible and streamlined in between the fittings. I clamped the struts down to my workbench, clamping on the square ends and shaped them by hand, using coarse sandpaper. This was where my laminated struts were a big advantage. The laminations made it easy to see if I was shaping them consistently down the length of the strut. As Mike Cuy says, the sttraight axle landing gear is the most difficult part of the entire project, but it gives an awful lot of satisfaction when it's done. Hang in there. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" You are my hero!! I am glad to hear you are so close. As for issues, I think it is about time we re-hash, let me see, how about how to make/get wire wheels, or maybe whether house latex paint is good enough, or maybe whether cardboard can be pressed into a laminated spar and save 15 cents. Thanks for all of your sage advice, mainly how to make the gear. I made a working pattern that is dead on using your method. I made cardboard patterns and then cut out and bent the steel fittings (no holes yet) I bought the spruce and cut all of the angles on the top and bottom of the side legs, and I just received the ash bottom pieces all cut to size and length. Now I just have to get up the nerve to clamp it all together and drill the fitting holes. I assume I will pre-drill the inner (probably) fittings, clamp them in place, and drill through to the outer. What I am debating right now is somehow glueing the sides and ash bottom together first to make it a little easier. Did you? I was helping my friend with his house the other day (the one who builds wooden airplanes, too) and we were playing with his biscuit cutter. I am now debating cutting and installing biscuits to hole the side vees together while I attach the lower fittings. The upper fittings are only partially cut out. As for streamlining, did you do it after it was all bolted together? Is it easier than it looks, or harder? Did you end the streamlining several inches from each end or carry it all the way to the ends? Too much to do. I still want to get down to see yours . . .maybe first flight?????? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Yeah, Gene - you've been around this list long enough to know that there are > certain topics, like what glue to use, or whether Douglas Fir is as good as > Sitka Spruce that just naturally stir up the discussions, because > everybody's got an opinion on them. > > I'm getting in the short rows on mine, now. Got the left wing covered and > ribstitched this past weekend. I'm starting to believe I'll actually fly it > a few more months. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > rambog@erols.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:26 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" > > > I'm sorry I brought it up. > > Gene > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: rhartwig11@juno.com > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:42:31 -0500 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com > > Glues > Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the > surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for > aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues > for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the > brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for > aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some > are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and > Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints > made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted. > > The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at > one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think > I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is > not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing > pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders > have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As > long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for > structural work on aircraft. > > Plywood > I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing > consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and > then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again > and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will > delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of > summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. > Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are > boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for > underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could > not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would > use in an aircraft without first testing a sample. > Dick Hartwig > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:34 AM PST US From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ford engine mt. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Hello Gene. Yah, I'm going to build my V's to extend to the foreward end of the ash bearers. If I had already made them standard length, I would use them as made, but since I haven't built them yet i'm going to attach them per the plans. They will just be a bit longer. I am going to use the same 1" drop at the front for the same down thrust as the plans. The V's are the only steel parts that I still need to build. I am not going to put in any offset. If I have any trouble there I will put a bendable trim tab on the rudder. I have made attachment points for tabs on my rudder and elevators just in case I need them. 2 years ago I bit the bullet and just bought the engine mt. V's from Replicraft. They are built from the 1929 plans in the Flying and Glider manual. Those plans have an error on the down thrust. ( at least I think it's an error ) The plans say 2 1/2" down trust. I think that should be 2 1/2 degree, not inches. I put my Smart Tool level on the barers and found that 1" drop comes out to 2 1/2 degrees. 2 1/2 in. looks like a radical drop. So I have a pair of Replicraft engine mt. V's that I can't use. I bought them because I am building in my living room, and can't do any welding there. In the Flying and Glider Manual there is a picture of a Piet with the cowling off. The tubing part of the mt. is not joined together in V fashion. The lower tube is bolted under the ash bearers, and the upper tube is bolted to the side of the bearers. BHP got away from that on the later plans. This is a simpler way to build the tubing part of the engine mt. ( less flitting, less welding, etc. ) Does any one know if this is an inferior way to build the tube part of the engine mt? Buy the way, in an old Buckeye news letter, Frank Pavliga suggested building the Model A fus. fire wall 4 in. foreward rather than extending the engine mt. Either way, I think it shows that that old Ford A "boat anchor"r needs to be moved foreward at least 4 in. Good luck, I'm off to dream land. Leon S. Hutchinson Ks. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: STOL Piet From: john e fay --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: john e fay Sorry this reply is so late, but I really hate writing. > John wrote > > >has anyone done anything with a longer-winged Piet? > >Slats perhaps? I'm curious about anything that might > >make it more STOL-ish in a respectful (and safe) way. If you are looking for a good slow speed airfoil, that would be very effective on a Piet, I would recommend you check out the airfoils that have been developed by Harry Ribblett (spelling?). My partner and I spoke to him at Oshkosh about 5 years ago. He said he is a fan of the pietenpol, but did say that his airfoils would give it a little gentler stall and slightly better low speed characteristics. He recommended one of his numbers in particular, but I don't remember which one it was. His publication, which details these airfoils, I believe is available from the EAA. I did meet a man at Brodhead the next year (sorry, but I don't remember who that was either) who had talked to Harry about the same thing, and decided to modify his already built wing to get some of the advantages of Harry's research. On Harry's advice, he simply added some foam to the front 25% of the wing to make the nose more fully rounded. He was very pleased with the result. Many builders back in the fifties and sixties modified Pietenpol's design by using airfoils such as the Clark Y or the NACA 4412, but I think most of these were really worse. I believe one of the dangers of using one of these more "modern" airfoils is that most of them produce greater movement of the Center of Pressure as the C/L increases. This requires more careful placement of the center of gravity and a larger tail volume than the piet has. But Harry Ribblett's airfoils are similar to Pietenpol's in that one of his design aims is to minimize movement of the C/P. Ribblett's airfoil will be deeper and have a more rounded leading edge that Pietenpol's, but they both have the same reflexive back half (which I guess is a major factor in limiting the movement of the C/P). John Fay in Peoria ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:52 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: 13" long x 6" wide --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy DJ-- You mentioned this as one of the dimensions of your fitting sizes for your GN-1. I was just wondering what part that was that was that large ? TANKS ! Do not archive Mike C. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:04 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: biscuits and streamlining --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Gene-- I flush-fit glued my gear leg bottoms to the ash blocks at the bottom while the whole affair was rigged in place on the plane but prior to installing the metal plates that bind those three items together on each side. To use biscuits there (or even a few dowell rods) It think would be of great benefit. Though I've had no joint problems in that area I like the idea of the biscuits there. I copied how Frank P. and his father faired their spruce gear legs in a teardrop/streamlined shape---larger in the front and slimmer on the trailing edges and did not carry the streamlining to each gear leg end. I tapered the streamline about 3.5" to flat so that the fittings would have nice straight, full dimension sized wood to clamp to. This tapering was done with a draw/spoke shave and shur-form hand rasp type deal from Stanley and the courses of sandpaper after that. This was all done prior to gluing the bottom ash pieces in place. If you'd like to see more up close pics of the gear leg and other items, check out the Matronics photoshare site: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov.12.11.2001/ Mike C. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:55 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 13" long x 6" wide --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" the front wing spar fittings. I have 4 of them. They are 13" long and at one point the tab that connects to the cabane is about 6" from the top of the fitting to the bottom of the tab. You can see one of the, in this pic http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/images/steel-parts-1.jpg it's the one that has the lightening holes cut in it. DJ Vegh www.imagedv.com/aircamper do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D Cuy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7:04 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 13" long x 6" wide --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy DJ-- You mentioned this as one of the dimensions of your fitting sizes for your GN-1. I was just wondering what part that was that was that large ? TANKS ! Do not archive Mike C. = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:18 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: data plates --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Howdy, low 'n' slow fliers; As promised, I have had some brass data plates made up and have them available for sale. They are a direct knock-off of the aluminum ones offered earlier (through the BPA or Frank Pavliga, I'm not sure which), except that I changed the wording from "The Original Model 'A' Powered Lightplane" to "Low and Slow Since 1929". There are quite a few Piets using engines other than the Ford, so I thought the new wording might be of interest to a wider audience. You can see a picture and get ordering information at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/dataplate.html and they are $10 postpaid to anyone in the known universe. I'm doing this for fun, not for profit, so if you're located on Johnston Atoll or someplace remote, cut me some slack and we'll discuss postage! I had them made up on rectangular blanks to keep the cost down and to make it easier to hold the plate in alignment while you do your engraving/embossing/stamping of the data on it, but upon request I will trim them to their final oval shape and punch the mounting holes for you prior to shipping. An ulterior motive for leaving the plates rectangular is that you can practice your engraving on the corners which get trimmed off later ;o) My thanks to Doc Mosher for providing me with an example of the aluminum data plate and to Mike Cuy for his help with AvGrafix. Both you gentlemen will receive complimentary data plates with my regards. I am also offering free data plates to anyone who gives me a ride in their Piet! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:15 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: data plates- P.S. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Oh, by the way- anyone responding on the brass data plates- please reply directly to me, not to the list. Thanks! do not archive Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:13 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: data plates --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Oscar--- Nice looking data plates. Dennis Demeter at AvGrafix is a pretty good guy. Pilot too. What you might want to do is mail off your data plate info/ad to the BPA (Brodhead Pietenpol Association Newsletter) that comes in the mail. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:58 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: BPA news & the discussion group --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Group-- Many of the guys who get the paper newsletter in the mail might not know about this Matronics online discussion group that we enjoy so I was going to e-mail them with that information so they can put it in the next newsletter. (they have an e-mail link on their web page below to the publisher.) I'm wondering why Don and his son Andrew Pietenpol don't have an ad in that newsletter for plans as well. (or did I miss it ?) Mike C. http://www.pietenpol.org/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:22 PM PST US From: "w b evans" Subject: Pietenpol-List: pics of my modified rudder bar --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" pics of my modified rudder bar at http://photos.yahoo.com/joepiet walt evans NX140DL hope this goes thru ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:05 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratril" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratril" Hey Gene As long as you brought up house paint, I'll throw in one small point. I used it and am still happy with it except I dribbled a little gasoline on it and when I went to wipe off, it became soft and tacky. It did re-dry but I have a small spot to touch up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" > > You are my hero!! I am glad to hear you are so close. > > As for issues, I think it is about time we re-hash, let me see, how about > how to make/get wire wheels, or maybe whether house latex paint is good > enough, or maybe whether cardboard can be pressed into a laminated spar and > save 15 cents. > > Thanks for all of your sage advice, mainly how to make the gear. I made a > working pattern that is dead on using your method. I made cardboard > patterns and then cut out and bent the steel fittings (no holes yet) I > bought the spruce and cut all of the angles on the top and bottom of the > side legs, and I just received the ash bottom pieces all cut to size and > length. Now I just have to get up the nerve to clamp it all together and > drill the fitting holes. I assume I will pre-drill the inner (probably) > fittings, clamp them in place, and drill through to the outer. > > What I am debating right now is somehow glueing the sides and ash bottom > together first to make it a little easier. Did you? I was helping my > friend with his house the other day (the one who builds wooden airplanes, > too) and we were playing with his biscuit cutter. I am now debating cutting > and installing biscuits to hole the side vees together while I attach the > lower fittings. The upper fittings are only partially cut out. > > As for streamlining, did you do it after it was all bolted together? Is it > easier than it looks, or harder? Did you end the streamlining several > inches from each end or carry it all the way to the ends? > > Too much to do. I still want to get down to see yours . . .maybe first > flight?????? > > Gene > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Phillips" > To: > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > > > Yeah, Gene - you've been around this list long enough to know that there > are > > certain topics, like what glue to use, or whether Douglas Fir is as good > as > > Sitka Spruce that just naturally stir up the discussions, because > > everybody's got an opinion on them. > > > > I'm getting in the short rows on mine, now. Got the left wing covered and > > ribstitched this past weekend. I'm starting to believe I'll actually fly > it > > a few more months. > > > > Jack > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > > rambog@erols.com > > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:26 AM > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rambog@erols.com" > > > > > > > I'm sorry I brought it up. > > > > Gene > > > > > > Original Message: > > ----------------- > > From: rhartwig11@juno.com > > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 06:42:31 -0500 > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glues and plywood > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com > > > > Glues > > Most modern woodworking glues make joints that are stronger than the > > surrounding wood, but that does not mean that they are acceptable for > > aircraft structures. We should be very specific when talking about glues > > for aircraft use. There are many different types of glue sold under the > > brand names of "Weldwood" or "Titebond". Some are excellent for > > aircraft--such as Weldwood Resorcinol or Weldwood Plastic Resin and some > > are not --such as Weldwood Contact Glue. Titebond Original Wood Glue and > > Titebond II Premium Wood Glue glue are definitely not waterproof. Joints > > made with them will come apart when the glue joint is thoroughly wetted. > > > > The urethane glues (like Gorilla Glue) are waterproof and I thought at > > one time that they might be an easy to use alternative, but I don't think > > I would use them for anything structural. If a urethane glue joint is > > not perfect and cured with at least mild clamping or staple/nailing > > pressure it can come apart with very little effort. Some boat builders > > have quit using urethanes--I am trying to find the specific reason. As > > long as there is a question about urethanes I would not consider them for > > structural work on aircraft. > > > > Plywood > > I have tested many samples of aircraft and marine plywoods. The testing > > consists of immersing them in boiling water for at least two hours and > > then trying to delaminate them. I then let them dry and boil them again > > and soak them for a couple of days. I have not tested a sample that will > > delaminate. I have left some samples outside for months (we get a lot of > > summer rain here) and the glue lines still could not be pried apart. > > Many interior grades of plywood will delaminate the first time they are > > boiled--one exception is Tec-Ply which is used on floors for > > underlayment. I did a boil-soak-dry cycle on it several times and could > > not get it to delaminate. Aircraft plywood is the only ply that I would > > use in an aircraft without first testing a sample. > > Dick Hartwig > > > > > >