Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:10 AM - John Dilatush's Piet (Oscar Zuniga)
2. 11:40 AM - brazing 4130 (Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta))
3. 01:07 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Mike)
4. 01:36 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Gary McNeel, Jr.)
5. 01:37 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Gary McNeel, Jr.)
6. 01:45 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Gary McNeel, Jr.)
7. 02:20 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (w b evans)
8. 02:27 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (w b evans)
9. 03:23 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Gary McNeel, Jr.)
10. 04:10 PM - Looking (Isablcorky@aol.com)
11. 04:47 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Cy Galley)
12. 05:00 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Cy Galley)
13. 05:01 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (w b evans)
14. 05:26 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Gene Rambo)
15. 08:34 PM - Calender (James Dallas)
16. 09:11 PM - Re: brazing 4130 (Christian Bobka)
Message 1
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| Subject: | John Dilatush's Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Howdy, folks;
I've been to the Rockies and seen John Dilatush's Subaru-powered Piet and
all I can say is... WOW! The problem with people on this list is that you
just can't get 'em to toot their own horns! John's Piet is a masterpiece,
and I got some great photos of it. I just got back home after 4 days and
2100 miles on the road, but as soon as I get the photos downloaded I'll set
up a webpage so all y'all can see the outstanding workmanship and really
innovative installation that John has done. It's an eye-popper.
And thanks, John, for your hospitality and some of that Rocky Mountain "rare
air"!
More to come...
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks, pullies,
bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I am now reading
that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole assembly sure
looks good and strong. Matt
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net>
Matt,
This subject has been covered on this list many times in the past.
When the plans were drawn, indicating brazing for parts of the control
system, 4130 didn't exist. I'm sure you noticed that the plans did not call
for 4130.
4130, developed after BHP's early work, has many benefits for aircraft
structure, as well as high-stress items like control systems. It can be
welded easily by a competent hobbyist with inexpensive equipment and, when
welded, is very strong.
However, brazability isn't one of the benefits. (I got lost listening to a
metallurgical engineer in my office expound on the reasons why and it has
something to do with dilution of some of the alloying agents which causes
adverse granularity, or something.) Anyhow, the upshot is: do not braze
4130.
The parts you've brazed, unfortunately, cannot be salvaged because the
brazing has permanently weakened the areas involved in each brazed joint,
even if the joints are melted apart and cleaned.
Mike Hardaway
on 6/24/03 11:39, Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta) at Matt.Miller@cox.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
> <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
> I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks,
> pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I am
> now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
> assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
Matt, while I am not an authority on welding, I do know you are not supposed to
braze 4130. Here is some good reading that may help you:
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/welded/articles.html
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
>I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks, pullies,
bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I am now reading
that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole assembly sure
looks good and strong. Matt
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
Here too.
http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/trikes/2000q4/005540.html
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
>I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks, pullies,
bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I am now reading
that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole assembly sure
looks good and strong. Matt
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
And here, about 1/2 way down, though the whole article is good. 43-13 has good
information.
http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:ZVEDWPf1AsIJ:av-info.faa.gov/dst/43-13/Ch_04-05.doc+brazing+4130+steel&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(here is the whole document - see chapter 4)
http://av-info.faa.gov/dst/43-13/
I think of the flight controls as sort of structural. I wonder if they brazed the
control stick in that old Three Stooges movie where Curly pulls the stick out
tosses it over the side. ;)
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
>I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks, pullies,
bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I am now reading
that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole assembly sure
looks good and strong. Matt
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
Gary,
You know, the human mind is a strange thing,,,,on the ground , the three
stooge thing gives us a chuckle, but in the air stuff like that does cross
my mind.
Just today, I wanted to fly really bad. The wind on the ground was light
but with the strong sun made thermals like I was riding a bucking bronco.
You have this feeling that with each shot, something just flew off the back.
Ain't life a kick!
walt evans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
snip>
> I think of the flight controls as sort of structural. I wonder if they
brazed the control stick in that old Three Stooges movie where Curly pulls
the stick out tosses it over the side. ;)
>
> -Gary
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:39:37 -0400
>
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
<Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> >
> >I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks,
pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I
am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
Just after I clicked send, thought of this.
When I started building, my AP mentor told me something that seemed cute,
but just another cleche (sp) that you hear everyday. Now that I am flying
what I built, it's the most important bit of advice he ever told me.
He said,,,"there is no such thing in aircraft building as " that's good
enough" . Nice to know when you are getting beat around in the wind , or
crossing that tree covered forrest and mountain, that you didn't "half
arse" anything.
walt evans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
snip>
> I think of the flight controls as sort of structural. I wonder if they
brazed the control stick in that old Three Stooges movie where Curly pulls
the stick out tosses it over the side. ;)
>
> -Gary
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:39:37 -0400
>
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
<Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> >
> >I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks,
pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I
am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
LOL Walt. I know. I am going so slow and being so meticulous on this Nieuport I
am building. It can be maddening to work for 6 hours and you have one little
metal part in your hand. But I KNOW I did it right and it will hold up in the
air.
-Gary
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
>
>Gary,
>You know, the human mind is a strange thing,,,,on the ground , the three
>stooge thing gives us a chuckle, but in the air stuff like that does cross
>my mind.
>Just today, I wanted to fly really bad. The wind on the ground was light
>but with the strong sun made thermals like I was riding a bucking bronco.
>You have this feeling that with each shot, something just flew off the back.
>Ain't life a kick!
>walt evans
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
>
>snip>
>> I think of the flight controls as sort of structural. I wonder if they
>brazed the control stick in that old Three Stooges movie where Curly pulls
>the stick out tosses it over the side. ;)
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:39:37 -0400
>>
>> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
><Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>> >
>> >I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks,
>pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I
>am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
>assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Pieters,
Am looking for the Pieter in Calgary who I promised to give a center/section
10 gal fuel tank. I lost your name. Would you please contact me direct.
Corky in hot La
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Richard Finch wrote the Welder's Handbook and also wrote the welding section
of AC 43-13 so his bias, right or wrong, appears both places. On the other
hand Steve Wittman and his Tailwind builders routinely braze the Tailwind
Tail feathers USING 4130 and vigorously defend the practice. That is why
they call it experimental.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
<gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
>
> Here too.
>
> http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/trikes/2000q4/005540.html
>
> -Gary
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:39:37 -0400
>
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
<Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> >
> >I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks,
pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I
am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
I should have added I would NOT braze!
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Richard Finch wrote the Welder's Handbook and also wrote the welding
section
> of AC 43-13 so his bias, right or wrong, appears both places. On the
other
> hand Steve Wittman and his Tailwind builders routinely braze the Tailwind
> Tail feathers USING 4130 and vigorously defend the practice. That is why
> they call it experimental.
>
> Cy Galley
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
> <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
> >
> > Here too.
> >
> > http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/trikes/2000q4/005540.html
> >
> > -Gary
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:39:37 -0400
> >
> > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
> <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> > >
> > >I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube,
sticks,
> pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I
> am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
> assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
Gary,
I think we all have to keep the big picture in mind,,,,,if you want to fly
in a rush= buy a plane. But if you want a great hobby for your free time
with a big reward at the end= enjoy building.
(and my hat is off to the guys with little kids and trying to build,,they
have to be a special breed)
Like I've read so many times, and I know it's true,,,,,at any gathering, if
the mention comes out that your hobby is to build planes........Don't care
if there are brain surgeons there. All the conversation will turn to the
airplanes! (including the questions from the brain sergeon)
Ain't life grand!!!
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr."
<gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
>
> LOL Walt. I know. I am going so slow and being so meticulous on this
Nieuport I am building. It can be maddening to work for 6 hours and you have
one little metal part in your hand. But I KNOW I did it right and it will
hold up in the air.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:18:50 -0400
>
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
> >
> >Gary,
> >You know, the human mind is a strange thing,,,,on the ground , the three
> >stooge thing gives us a chuckle, but in the air stuff like that does
cross
> >my mind.
> >Just today, I wanted to fly really bad. The wind on the ground was light
> >but with the strong sun made thermals like I was riding a bucking bronco.
> >You have this feeling that with each shot, something just flew off the
back.
> >Ain't life a kick!
> >walt evans
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
> >To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
> >
> >snip>
> >> I think of the flight controls as sort of structural. I wonder if they
> >brazed the control stick in that old Three Stooges movie where Curly
pulls
> >the stick out tosses it over the side. ;)
> >>
> >> -Gary
> >>
> >> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> >> From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:39:37 -0400
> >>
> >> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
> ><Matt.Miller@cox.com>
> >> >
> >> >I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube,
sticks,
> >pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them.
I
> >am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
> >assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
I don't know guys. Most of the references I have seen as proof NOT to braze
4130 is someone on the internet in a chat room saying not to. I have seen
far more examples of aircraft (and other things, like motorcycles) where
4130 WAS brazed and is completely satisfactory. I have done it and seen it
done for years.
This prohibition against brazing 4130 seems to be a fairly recent thing as
far as I am aware (which may simply mean that I am unaware). I have been
searching the internet looking at different companies materials properties
pages and have found no authority for such a prohibition. On the other
hand, I have found many sites which refer to brazing 4130 as an acceptable
method.
Can anyone point to some respectable authority saying that it is not
allowable?
Gene
Message 15
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Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:28:53 -0500
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "James Dallas" <BEC176@msn.com>
Sitting at work today thumbing through my EAA desktop calendar, 29 Aug is the Bi-plane
Piet.
Jim D.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: brazing 4130 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
The current line of thought is to scrap any 4130 that is brazed that is
primary structure including the flight controls. Sorry. Should have asked
first.
Chris Bobka
EAA Tech counselor
A&P IA
----- Original Message -----
From: Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta) <Matt.Miller@cox.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)"
<Matt.Miller@cox.com>
>
> I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks,
pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I
am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole
assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt
>
>
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