Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Wed 06/25/03


Total Messages Posted: 27



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:52 AM - Wood prop balancing (Michael D Cuy)
     2. 06:10 AM - Re: Wood prop balancing (Peter W Johnson)
     3. 06:51 AM - Brazing 4130 (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
     4. 07:28 AM - FAA's definition of "Electrical System" (DJ Vegh)
     5. 08:00 AM - welding vs brazing (LAWRENCE WILLIAMS)
     6. 08:19 AM - Guess what (Isablcorky@aol.com)
     7. 08:33 AM - Larry Williams surfaces ! (Michael D Cuy)
     8. 08:35 AM - Re: brazing 4130 (Barry Davis)
     9. 09:08 AM - Re: brazing (Christian Bobka)
    10. 09:27 AM - from the archives on brazing (Christian Bobka)
    11. 09:45 AM - Re: welding vs brazing (Gary McNeel, Jr.)
    12. 11:02 AM - Re: from the archives on brazing (Craigo)
    13. 11:02 AM - Re: from the archives on brazing (Craigo)
    14. 12:46 PM - Re: Larry Williams surfaces ! (Carl Loar)
    15. 12:59 PM - Re: Wood prop balancing (w b evans)
    16. 02:32 PM - Travel Air Model A (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
    17. 02:42 PM - Re: Wood prop balancing (John Dilatush)
    18. 02:54 PM - Re: Larry Williams surfaces ! (w b evans)
    19. 03:12 PM - more on brazing (Christian Bobka)
    20. 03:19 PM - more on brazing (Christian Bobka)
    21. 03:21 PM - even more on brazing (Christian Bobka)
    22. 03:27 PM - way more on brazing (Christian Bobka)
    23. 03:34 PM - prop balancing (D. Engelkenjohn)
    24. 03:41 PM - Re: Wood prop balancing (Alex Sloan)
    25. 05:02 PM - Re: FAA's definition of "Electrical System" (DJ Vegh)
    26. 06:13 PM - Re: way more on brazing (Gene Rambo)
    27. 09:33 PM - Re: Wood prop balancing (Rcaprd@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:52:50 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Wood prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Group--- I know there are some of you out there who have built and flown behind your own wood propellors on your Piets and for that, my hat is off to you. I was one not to go that far and opted to buy a Falcon wood prop for my 65 Continental. It's been fine and I've been following the re-torquing and tracking directions that came with the prop but I've got a balance problem I think right now. I touched up a few little cinder dings and re-varnished them a few weeks ago. I'm finding that the plane vibrates more than usual now in full-power climbs and even somewhat at cruise settings. Aside from bugging my local IA for his hanging cable prop balancing gizmo, HOW ARE you guys balancing your props ? I don't mean sanding and adding varnish to the light side---I have that figured out. What I specifically am after is what technique do you use to find the heavy blade ? Thanks ! Mike C. in Ohio


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:10:29 AM PST US
    From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Wood prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@yahoo.com> Mike, Check our "How I make Wood Propellers" here http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=5. Around page 42 or so. It's a big pdf file (11Mb) but worth the download. Peter. Wonthaggi, Australia http://cpc-world.cable.nu/Pietenpol/pietenpol.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood prop balancing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy --> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Group--- I know there are some of you out there who have built and flown behind your own wood propellors on your Piets and for that, my hat is off to you. I was one not to go that far and opted to buy a Falcon wood prop for my 65 Continental. It's been fine and I've been following the re-torquing and tracking directions that came with the prop but I've got a balance problem I think right now. I touched up a few little cinder dings and re-varnished them a few weeks ago. I'm finding that the plane vibrates more than usual now in full-power climbs and even somewhat at cruise settings. Aside from bugging my local IA for his hanging cable prop balancing gizmo, HOW ARE you guys balancing your props ? I don't mean sanding and adding varnish to the light side---I have that figured out. What I specifically am after is what technique do you use to find the heavy blade ? Thanks ! Mike C. in Ohio advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members.


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:51:22 AM PST US
    From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
    Subject: Brazing 4130
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) I would imagine that since 4130 became widely available, 99.9% of all the Piets built threw the 50's 60's etc. were built with 4130 and brazed as the plans show, and have flown without incident. These planes were built waaaay before Finch wrote his book. Leon S. I'll probably re make all of my brazed parts - again. Ain't life grand. Do not archive.


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:28:43 AM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: FAA's definition of "Electrical System"
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> I live and fly within a 30nm of Phoenix class B airspace so I am required to have a xponder if I also have an "engine driven electrical system" according to the FAR's. I'll be running a Corvair engine so I must have a battery since the 'Vair uses coil/points ignition. Here's my thought..... what if I used a wind driven generator instead of alternator driven by the engine. Does this exclude me from having to operate a xponder?? I really don't want to have to buy & install a transponder/altitude encoder. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper -


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:00:11 AM PST US
    From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com>
    Subject: welding vs brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com> Here's an idea.......... if there is someone out there who is going to scrap their brazed parts, how about testing them to destruction? Clamp those suckers in a vise and wail away! Bend them, twist them, hit 'em with a BIG hammer. Then, report back to the group whether or not you think they would have held up under the rigors of an Air Camper wafting along at 60 kts. Or even a Tailwind at 150 kts. As I look at drawings 4 & 6, it seems that the brazed parts are either captured inside a torque tube, holding a bolt in place, or are in a compression or other low-stress application. I have not made a detailed study of each part so maybe someone else will reply on this. I've brazed bicycle frames (some are 20 yrs old still providing service), car parts and admit to having brazed parts on my Piet. The bike parts and Piet parts are indeed 4130. Just a thought. Seems like empirical data for something like this on-going argument might put it to bed for a while. Larry


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:19:47 AM PST US
    From: Isablcorky@aol.com
    Subject: Guess what
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Pieters and all the world, Just 36 days till ???????????????????????????????????? Corky in La just waiting around for it to happen By the way, I learned of another Piet potential, had a long talk with him about Piets. Nice guy. Help him all you can as he is beginning a Piet project with his 9 yr old son. Nothing could be better for them or our country. Wish more dads would do similiar activities. Remember the old 6th Cardinal Principle of Education, " worthy use of leisure time". AND believe it or not, he is a beauro with FAA in Jackson, Miss. BRAD.OUTLAW@FAA.GOV Do not archive


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:33:19 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Larry Williams surfaces !
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Larry ! Good to see you alive and back on the list. Between you and O'Rielly I really like to sit back and listen ! You da man. PS-- How was the SSA or SAA fly-in in IL ???? Did you get to go. And by the way Carl Loar, are you taxiing your new Piet, tinkering with last minute things or are you flying it ? Will Matt from the CLE MIDO office do your inspection ? Let's hear how you are doing ! Mike C. do not archive


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:35:29 AM PST US
    From: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: brazing 4130
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Barry Davis" <bed@mindspring.com> Matt Why don't you come out to Carrollton and weld up your stuff. We have 3 very good tig welders and 3 machines. We have the steel, but haven't started on the 7 fuselages yet and there is some free time on the machines. We are welding up all the wing fittings for all the planes, but you could probably work yours through with no problem. Tig is as about as easy as it comes. Barry Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: brazing 4130 > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Miller, Matt (CEI-Atlanta)" <Matt.Miller@cox.com> > > I recently completed all interior flight controls...torque tube, sticks, pullies, bell crank. I built exactly like the plans said, I brazed them. I am now reading that you can't braze 4130. Any comments on this? The whole assembly sure looks good and strong. Matt > >


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:08:21 AM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
    "pietenpol" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
    Subject: Re: brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com> Gene, Performance Welding by Richard Finch page 130 published 1997. You can find this book in Home Depot by the welding stuff. Finch wrote the revised part on welding in the new AC43 1b Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: bobka@compuserve.com Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 6:18 AM Subject: brazing I know what you are saying, but is there any reliable information to support "the current line of thought"?


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:27:59 AM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: from the archives on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Gene, We have been over this before in the archives. This is from the archives: I will quote from Performance Welding by Richard Finch who is an expert in welding, is in the aerospace industry, and wrote the parts of AC 43-1B relating to welding. He says, and I quote without permission: "Brazing Steel Always avoid brazing 4130 steel. The reason to not braze chromemoly is that the steel has a definite grain structure that actually opens up at medium red brazing temperatures. When brazing alloy is melted onto the steel surface, it flows easily into the many small cracks and crevices in the chromemoly steeel. Then as the braze joint cools, the brass will not compress and it forces MAJOR cracks to form in the 4130 steel. Often, a brazed 4130 steel part will crack completely in two before your eyes as it cools. Mild steel (1020, 1025, and so on) is ready made for brazing..........Brazing, when done correctly, can last as long as any other metal-joining method. And it can be as strong as fusion welding when it is done correctly."


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:45:40 AM PST US
    From: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com>
    Subject: Re: welding vs brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary McNeel, Jr." <gmcneel@mykitplane.com> To add to this, why not first take them and have them NDI'd (Non-Destructive Inspection). See if there are already cracks BEFORE beating on them. Magnaflux at an engine shop should do the trick. -Gary ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "LAWRENCE WILLIAMS" <lnawms@msn.com> > >Here's an idea.......... if there is someone out there who is going to scrap their brazed parts, how about testing them to destruction? > >Clamp those suckers in a vise and wail away! Bend them, twist them, hit 'em with a BIG hammer. Then, report back to the group whether or not you think they would have held up under the rigors of an Air Camper wafting along at 60 kts. Or even a Tailwind at 150 kts. > >As I look at drawings 4 & 6, it seems that the brazed parts are either captured inside a torque tube, holding a bolt in place, or are in a compression or other low-stress application. I have not made a detailed study of each part so maybe someone else will reply on this. > >I've brazed bicycle frames (some are 20 yrs old still providing service), car parts and admit to having brazed parts on my Piet. The bike parts and Piet parts are indeed 4130. > > >Just a thought. Seems like empirical data for something like this on-going argument might put it to bed for a while. > >Larry > >


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:02:39 AM PST US
    From: "Craigo" <craigwilcox@peoplepc.com>
    Subject: Re: from the archives on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Craigo" <craigwilcox@peoplepc.com> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:23:50 -0500, "Christian Bobka" wrote: Then as the braze joint cools, > the brass will not > compress and it forces MAJOR cracks to form in the 4130 > steel. I used to own and race Formula Ford cars, made in England with BRAZED joints. True, they were silicon-bronze brazed, BUT: Whilst rounding turn 9 onto the straight, the right rear upright let go, putting me into the wall at about 135. Major damage to both the car and to me. Why did it let go? A major crack in the brazed joint at the top of the upright! Convinced me to always use welded joints!!!! Craig Lake Worth, FL Bakeng Duce NX96CW PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com


    Message 13


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:02:39 AM PST US
    From: "Craigo" <craigwilcox@peoplepc.com>
    Subject: Re: from the archives on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Craigo" <craigwilcox@peoplepc.com> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:23:50 -0500, "Christian Bobka" wrote: Then as the braze joint cools, > the brass will not > compress and it forces MAJOR cracks to form in the 4130 > steel. I used to own and race Formula Ford cars, made in England with BRAZED joints. True, they were silicon-bronze brazed, BUT: Whilst rounding turn 9 onto the straight, the right rear upright let go, putting me into the wall at about 135. Major damage to both the car and to me. Why did it let go? A major crack in the brazed joint at the top of the upright! Convinced me to always use welded joints!!!! Craig Lake Worth, FL Bakeng Duce NX96CW PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com


    Message 14


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:46:12 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net>
    Subject: Re: Larry Williams surfaces !
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net> Hey Mikey,,,,, Git in that there piet and fly to Blissfield :) Ok here is the poop on my piet. I just redid the carb heat box,( list tip; use SS choreboy pads for heat coils in the heat box.) I just cast and machined a prop cover that will go over the crush plate. How's that for scratch built? Also, I found out that getting stick travel past my 50 year old beer belly wasn't enough so I am readjusting the cables. After measuring again I found the wash out in the wings weren't even so I had to redo that. Whew,,,, hopefully friday I will get the rest of the turnbuckles safety wired and she should be ready for some taxi time. I have a DAR that is familiar with piets. He flew the time off of Bill Poiry's and loves them. I can call him and get inspected within a weeks time.. Hopefully real soon as I am getting reeeeeal tired of not flying..... I'll let ya know how the taxing goes. Take care. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Larry Williams surfaces ! > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > Larry ! Good to see you alive and back on the list. Between you and > O'Rielly I really like to sit back and listen ! You da man. > PS-- How was the SSA or SAA fly-in in IL ???? Did you get to go. > > And by the way Carl Loar, are you taxiing your new Piet, tinkering with > last minute things or are you flying it ? Will Matt from the CLE MIDO > office do your inspection ? Let's hear how you are doing ! > > Mike C. > > do not archive > >


    Message 15


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:59:36 PM PST US
    From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Wood prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> Mike, I've balanced both my U/L blades, and my Sensinich<sp> this way. Its fairly easy and effective... For the shaft that you will pivot on I used a chainsaw file. Real cheap, straight, and vertually wont bend. Then I made two circles out of 1/8" (or could use 1/4") aircraft ply. Drill clean hole in two pieces of ply to match the size of the file. Then bolt them together using that hole, and put in the lathe to turn down the OD to just be able to push into the prop hole snugly with your fingers. Now ready to balance. You can use two parallel pieces of steel, or I just used the vise jaws. Make sure you check out the setup this way,,, 1 set in jaws looking at front of prop, and make note of which tip drops. 2 rotate prop so now looking at rear of prop (left and right tip still at same ends) take note of heavy end 3 look at rear but put right tip on left and vice versa 4 lok at front with tips same as #3 note; you're just checking 4 different setups to make sure any error is not brought on by the vise. The cool thing is, is you can take a piece of paper about 2" x 3" folded in a "V" and hook it on a tip and see it fall. Thats how sensitive it is. Try all tips in all configurations. When you are sure of the setup, and the prop is in the condition that you want, you can simply brush on another swipe of urithane on the light blade till it balances. Have to touchup when dry cause the solvents in the varnish weigh something and they evaporate off. We have talked about repairing chips and dings in a wooden prop? Using super glue and baking soda. It's an amazing process..easy, looks great, and doesn't let go. If anyone wants to rehear it let me know. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood prop balancing > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > Group--- I know there are some of you out there who have built and flown > behind your own wood propellors on your Piets and for that, my hat is off > to you. I was one not to go that far and opted to buy a Falcon wood prop > for my 65 Continental. It's been fine and I've been following the > re-torquing and tracking directions that came with the prop but I've got a > balance problem I think right now. I touched up a few little cinder dings > and re-varnished them a few weeks ago. I'm finding that the plane vibrates > more than usual now in full-power climbs and even somewhat at cruise > settings. Aside from bugging my local IA for his hanging cable prop > balancing gizmo, HOW ARE you guys balancing your props ? I don't mean > sanding and adding varnish to the light side---I have that figured > out. What I specifically am after is what technique do you use to find the > heavy blade ? > > Thanks ! > > Mike C. in Ohio > >


    Message 16


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:32:15 PM PST US
    From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
    Subject: Travel Air Model A
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Dick Hartwig. In an old post (June 9) you questioned the 7 to 1 compression, hearing that 6 to 1 is about max. for the Ford A. I believe 6 to 1 is the max you should run on babbitt bearings, but this engine has insert bearings and pressure oiling. 7 to 1 compression should be no problem for insert bearings. Some of these racers claim to get 100 hp or more from the A, so I'll bet the compression they run is even higher than 7 to 1. I need to call them to see if they will rework an already converted engine. Leon S.


    Message 17


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:42:25 PM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Re: Wood prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood prop balancing ++++++++++++++++++++++ Mike, I made my own prop, in fact two of them. The first one expired when I carelessly ran into a wooden survey stake that had been there for many years. Now the fact that I had no foward visibility, my landing was terrible and I ran off of the paved runway, I still claim, along with the rest of our American society that it was in no way MY fault. Therefore it must be someone elses fault, you know a good attorney? SOME ONE ELSE IS WRONG! More seriously, however, this is the way that I balance my props. remember the old wheel balancers of many years ago? They had a bubble in the middle of them and you put the wheel on the fixture horizontally and then used weights to center the bubble. Well I had one of these balancers left over from my sports car building/racing days and decided to try and use it. I made a adapter that fit the center hole in the prop hub and over the tapered mandrel of the balancer. The exact design would depend upon your balancer, most had a tapered cone and you may be able to use just the center hole of the prop. Since the center hole was used to center a drill jig for the prop hub holes, it must be the center of the prop. Then I mounted the prop horizontally on the balancer, just the same as you would an auto wheel. From there on, it was easy to balance the prop simultaneously on all planes. First, get the balance of the blades from end to end right by a little sanding. Then, in all probability you will find that the bubble is off at some right angle to the axis of the blades. Then put a stack of washers at various places around the hub until the bubble centers. Mark the place that you had the stack of washers, and weigh the washers. Then take some 1/8" solid soldering material and cut off the same weight as the washers. Drill a hole large enough to accept the lead solder and drop it in the hole. Check the balance again to be sure. Pour in some epoxy, put in a wooden plug, sand flush and you are done except for a little varnish. Now you are sure that your prop is balanced on all axis. I have seen these wheel balancers pretty cheap at Harbor Freight or Northern Tool, Hope this helps. John +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > Group--- I know there are some of you out there who have built and flown > behind your own wood propellors on your Piets and for that, my hat is off > to you. I was one not to go that far and opted to buy a Falcon wood prop > for my 65 Continental. It's been fine and I've been following the > re-torquing and tracking directions that came with the prop but I've got a > balance problem I think right now. I touched up a few little cinder dings > and re-varnished them a few weeks ago. I'm finding that the plane vibrates > more than usual now in full-power climbs and even somewhat at cruise > settings. Aside from bugging my local IA for his hanging cable prop > balancing gizmo, HOW ARE you guys balancing your props ? I don't mean > sanding and adding varnish to the light side---I have that figured > out. What I specifically am after is what technique do you use to find the > heavy blade ? > > Thanks ! > > Mike C. in Ohio > >


    Message 18


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:54:55 PM PST US
    From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Larry Williams surfaces !
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> Carl, Glad to hear of your progress! Went thru what you are going thru last fall. This is the time when all the fun begins. Even tho you've been thru this whole process,,,there is still a part of you that looks at the plane and can't believe that you actually built an aircraft. It's a really cool feeling. ( I've been following your progress on your site). You are using the big wheels and the split gear right? Two things,,,in the taxi tests,,,like I was told before flying was that it will be off the ground before the throttle is all the way open. So if you are going with the tail wheel in the air, get ready to go airborne. My Piet stalls at 37 mph in the air, in ground effect it will fly sooner. and if you have the big wheels, these put the plane up very high on quite narrow gear. So get ready for alot of toedancing. guess what I'm trying to say is that the most important thing I remember is to kick it exactly straight with the runway before setting it down. (I've had two OOP's to remind me) And all in all use a little throttle in most configurations just when setting it on the ground. It usually makes a good one out of a bad one. WHEW! Sorry to go on and on. Keep us posted, and post pictures! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Larry Williams surfaces ! > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Loar" <skycarl@megsinet.net> > > Hey Mikey,,,,, Git in that there piet and fly to Blissfield :) Ok here > is the poop on my piet. > I just redid the carb heat box,( list tip; use SS choreboy pads for heat > coils in the heat box.) > I just cast and machined a prop cover that will go over the crush plate. > How's that for scratch built? > Also, I found out that getting stick travel past my 50 year old beer belly > wasn't enough so I am readjusting > the cables. After measuring again I found the wash out in the wings weren't > even so I had to redo that. > Whew,,,, hopefully friday I will get the rest of the turnbuckles safety > wired and she should be ready for > some taxi time. I have a DAR that is familiar with piets. He flew the time > off of Bill Poiry's and loves them. > I can call him and get inspected within a weeks time.. Hopefully real soon > as I am getting reeeeeal tired of > not flying..... > I'll let ya know how the taxing goes. Take care. > Carl > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Larry Williams surfaces ! > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > > > Larry ! Good to see you alive and back on the list. Between you and > > O'Rielly I really like to sit back and listen ! You da man. > > PS-- How was the SSA or SAA fly-in in IL ???? Did you get to go. > > > > And by the way Carl Loar, are you taxiing your new Piet, tinkering with > > last minute things or are you flying it ? Will Matt from the CLE MIDO > > office do your inspection ? Let's hear how you are doing ! > > > > Mike C. > > > > do not archive > > > > > >


    Message 19


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:12:20 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: more on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Gene, From "Welding Guidelines with Aircraft Supplement" published 1978, William H. Kielhorn says, on page 159: "....brazing is not used for structural repairs on aircraft". chris bobka


    Message 20


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:19:16 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
    Subject: more on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net> Gene, From "Welding Guidelines with Aircraft Supplement" published 1978, William H. Kielhorn says, on page 159: "....brazing is not used for structural repairs on aircraft". chris bobka


    Message 21


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:21:36 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
    Subject: even more on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com> Gene, From AC65-15A dated 1972, page 264, "because the strength of brazed joints is not so great as welded joints, brazing is not used for structural repairs on aircraft." Chris Bobka


    Message 22


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:27:21 PM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
    Subject: way more on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com> Gene, CAM 18 dated 12/15/59 says in 18.30-4 "Brazing may be used for repair to primary aircraft structures only if brazing was originally approved for the particular application....." meaning the metals would need to be compatible..... Chris bobka


    Message 23


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:34:19 PM PST US
    From: "D. Engelkenjohn" <wingding@usmo.com>
    Subject: prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "D. Engelkenjohn" <wingding@usmo.com> I didn't build my own prop for my minimax, but when I repaired some nicks I got it slightly out of balance also. I borrowed a deal from another fellow here in Illinois which looked like an old metal band aid box, it was about .995 od (to fit in a 1" hole) and about 2 1/2" long with a shoulder on the bottom. It was hollow with the hole not through, but ending near the top and coming to a point internally, as if drilled with a drill. It was slid into the center hole of the prop and sat on top of a vertical point, like a straight pin. A spot level rested on top and if the prop was off, the bubble was not in the middle of the circle. Supposedly very accurate, but you need to make the part which fits into the hole the same size as the hole, well, a hair less. Dennis


    Message 24


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:41:19 PM PST US
    From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Wood prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1@bellsouth.net> Walt, I have used your system over the years on wooden props and a tip I would add, the back side of the blade on mine were always a dull black. I would mist dull black paint from a spray can to help with the balance. Worked great. Another tip, on the leading edges we have found that electrical tape works great for protective covering. It is installed while on the parallel steel pieces. Going one step farther, we have machined a cone that fits into the prop hub. Putting a large nail with the tip ground to a sharp point in a vice then placing the cone on the nail and placing the prop on the cone. Then we used a small circular Sears fluid filled center finder. This quickly shows if one blade is off weight. It is placed in the center of the prop hub. Using this along with the parallel steel pieces method, one can get a wooden prop balanced quite easily. I hope I have explained it with acceptable clarity. Just thought I would add this for food for thought. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood prop balancing > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> > > Mike, > I've balanced both my U/L blades, and my Sensinich<sp> this way. Its fairly > easy and effective... > For the shaft that you will pivot on I used a chainsaw file. Real cheap, > straight, and vertually wont bend. Then I made two circles out of 1/8" (or > could use 1/4") aircraft ply. Drill clean hole in two pieces of ply to > match the size of the file. Then bolt them together using that hole, and > put in the lathe to turn down the OD to just be able to push into the prop > hole snugly with your fingers. > Now ready to balance. You can use two parallel pieces of steel, or I just > used the vise jaws. > Make sure you check out the setup this way,,, > 1 set in jaws looking at front of prop, and make note of which tip drops. > 2 rotate prop so now looking at rear of prop (left and right tip still at > same ends) take note of heavy end > 3 look at rear but put right tip on left and vice versa > 4 lok at front with tips same as #3 > note; you're just checking 4 different setups to make sure any error is not > brought on by the vise. > The cool thing is, is you can take a piece of paper about 2" x 3" folded > in a "V" and hook it on a tip and see it fall. Thats how sensitive it is. > Try all tips in all configurations. When you are sure of the setup, and > the prop is in the condition that you want, you can simply brush on another > swipe of urithane on the light blade till it balances. Have to touchup > when dry cause the solvents in the varnish weigh something and they > evaporate off. > > We have talked about repairing chips and dings in a wooden prop? Using > super glue and baking soda. It's an amazing process..easy, looks great, and > doesn't let go. > If anyone wants to rehear it let me know. > > walt evans > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood prop balancing > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > > > Group--- I know there are some of you out there who have built and flown > > behind your own wood propellors on your Piets and for that, my hat is off > > to you. I was one not to go that far and opted to buy a Falcon wood prop > > for my 65 Continental. It's been fine and I've been following the > > re-torquing and tracking directions that came with the prop but I've got a > > balance problem I think right now. I touched up a few little cinder dings > > and re-varnished them a few weeks ago. I'm finding that the plane > vibrates > > more than usual now in full-power climbs and even somewhat at cruise > > settings. Aside from bugging my local IA for his hanging cable prop > > balancing gizmo, HOW ARE you guys balancing your props ? I don't mean > > sanding and adding varnish to the light side---I have that figured > > out. What I specifically am after is what technique do you use to find > the > > heavy blade ? > > > > Thanks ! > > > > Mike C. in Ohio > > > > > >


    Message 25


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:02:49 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com>
    Subject: Re: FAA's definition of "Electrical System"
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> I spoke with a couple DAR's today. The concensus was if I was using a wind driven generator I would in fact be exempt from having to equip my aircraft with a xponder. They said that if you take FAR 91.215 as it is written, you only need a xponder if you have an "engine driven electrical system". I have already done some initial tests on a wind generator. I have an RC engine starter which is essentially a permanent magnet DC motor. It has ball bearings for the commutator shaft and is designed for hi-torque applications. I spun the starter at 2200 RPM (hooked up to my hand drill) and recorded voltage of 6vdc. I hooked the starter up to another small dc motor and applied a load to this small motor. I then spun the "generator" at 2200 rpm and recorded as much as 8 amps. I then spun it at about 4,500 rpm (via pulley and belt of my drill press) and got approx 13 volts. Clearly this DC motor would work great as a DC generator driven by wind if I mount a small propeller to it. I estimate that I would need it to turn about 5,000 RPM under load. It would be able to provide at least 5-7 amps continuous... This is within the duty range of the motor. Next I'm going to mount a 12x5 RC prop on it and do some "wind tunnel" tests as I hang it off the side of my truck at about 75mph. I'll record voltage and amps and see what it does. This should keep my battery topped off as I will only be drawing a couple amps from the battery with the coil ignition and comm radio. This is the best way to get around Mode C xponder requirements if you live within class B! DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper - ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: FAA's definition of "Electrical System" > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <aircamper@imagedv.com> > > I live and fly within a 30nm of Phoenix class B airspace so I am required to > have a xponder if I also have an "engine driven electrical system" according > to the FAR's. > > I'll be running a Corvair engine so I must have a battery since the 'Vair > uses coil/points ignition. > > Here's my thought..... what if I used a wind driven generator instead of > alternator driven by the engine. Does this exclude me from having to > operate a xponder?? > > I really don't want to have to buy & install a transponder/altitude encoder. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > - > >


    Message 26


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:13:39 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: way more on brazing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> At the risk of getting even more snyde responses, let me point out that the numerous statements that have been forwarded merely say that brazing is not acceptable for structural REPAIRS. That is not the same thing as saying that 4130 should NEVER be brazed. You know, I am not an idiot, nor am I new to aviation maintenance and aircraft building/rebuilding. I have stepped up on one of our member's behalf to question what has become a commonly accepted statement without any proof behind it. The only alleged source for a PROHIBITION against brazing 4130 for ANY application is the guy (whose name I have now forgotten) who contributed to the revised 43.13. Any others???? If it is such a stupid question, why can't I see more sources? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: way more on brazing > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com> > > Gene, > > CAM 18 dated 12/15/59 says in 18.30-4 "Brazing may be used for repair to primary aircraft structures only if brazing was originally approved for the particular application....." meaning the metals would need to be compatible..... > > Chris bobka > >


    Message 27


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:33:37 PM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Wood prop balancing
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 6/25/03 7:54:05 AM Central Daylight Time, Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov writes: << Aside from bugging my local IA for his hanging cable prop balancing gizmo, HOW ARE you guys balancing your props ? I don't mean sanding and adding varnish to the light side---I have that figured out. What I specifically am after is what technique do you use to find the heavy blade ? >> Mike, In A&P school they taught us that 'Horizontal Balance' is when the tips point up and down, and 'Vertical Balance' is when the tips are to the right and left...go figure. The prop is balanced off the center hole, and tracked off the flange faying surface. The way I balance the prop is with a mandrill through the center hole, set on parallel steel strips, which are edge mounted in a wood box that is shaped like a 'miter box'. Level the box, check the prop this way, that way, flip it over and check in both directions again, to make sure you locate the heavy blade. Add varnish to the flat side (called the 'Face', because it 'faces the pilot) of the light blade, or add varnish to a low area on the airfoil. Problem is I can't check the horizontal balance - tips going up and down. I like the method that John Dilatush mentioned, but I don't like the thought of drilling hole and adding lead. It would also be necessary to check the prop using the flange faying surface. I'm now looking for one of these old tire balancers. I think one of the major sources of vibrations is when the blade is out of track. Wood props DEFINITELY contort when nicks allow moisture to enter the wood, or the prop is not stored with the blades in the horizontal position. When checking track, make sure the end play in the crank is pushed in the same direction, and that you use a similar location on each tip. Shim with a piece of paper. According to AC43-13, wood props are tracked so they are within 1/8" of each other, but I prefer making them track within 1/16". Another quick check would be to lay the prop on the table, and check the prop with a straight edge all the way from tip to tip, passing through the exact center of the center hole, and see if the straight edge lies in the same part radius of the prop tips. This check would determine if one of the blades has moved in the plane of rotation. When building a prop, it is very important to make the shape of the airfoil at each blade station match exactly on both blades. Hopefully a prop that is store bought already matches the airfoil shapes. Chuck




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   pietenpol-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
  • Full Archive Search Engine
  •   http://www.matronics.com/search
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list
  • Browse Pietenpol-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contributions

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --