Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:38 AM - Re: Corvair Engine Mount (Jim Ash)
2. 04:58 AM - piet powerplant question (brad.outlaw@faa.gov)
3. 05:39 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (Kip & Beth Gardner)
4. 06:01 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (Gadd, Skip)
5. 06:22 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (John Ford)
6. 07:24 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (Gadd, Skip)
7. 07:39 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (John Ford)
8. 08:14 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (Gadd, Skip)
9. 10:05 AM - corvair motors (William Young)
10. 10:09 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (Gary Gower)
11. 10:18 AM - Re: piet powerplant question (Gary Gower)
12. 10:52 AM - Re: corvair motors (Kent Hallsten)
13. 01:16 PM - Re: piet powerplant question (Jim Ash)
14. 01:53 PM - Wing incidence (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
15. 03:02 PM - Re: piet powerplant question (Doyle K. Combs)
16. 10:13 PM - C.G., Fuel, & Long Legs (Rcaprd@aol.com)
17. 11:47 PM - Skytek struts (rod wooller)
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Subject: | Re: Corvair Engine Mount |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Chuck -
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm just getting into this game. What is your
range for CG? Being within 1/2" of the rear CG might make me a little
cautious, unless the range is really narrow to begin with. Does the
presence or absence of fuel move it around much?
I'd be curious to hear your opinions of aircraft handling with assorted
ballasts to pull the CG forward some. One of the reasons I ask is that I
had a larger and heavier engine put in my Cub, which came with a metal prop
instead of a wood prop (11 lb difference , if I recall), so now I'm nudging
the forward limit. I notice the difference in the flair; my first few
landings were splat landings until I adjusted my habits.
Jim Ash
P.S. I like your tag line.
At 7/1/2003 01:01 AM -0400, you wrote:
....
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
07/01/2003 06:58:28 AM
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
hello all,
this is my first message after being subscribed to the list. i just
recently got BHP plans and have been avidly reading the piet list. i have
made contact with corky in la and have purchased mike cuy's tape. the list
provides lots of great discussion on interesting subjects. i would like to
throw a question out there and get your thoughts on my delimma. I already
have a Lyc 0-290 D2 engine with only 715 hours. I would like to use this
engine on my piet but am concerned about the weight. I could certainly sell
it and get a TCM flat motor if necessary . does anyone know if this engine
has been used on a piet previously? checking the TCDS indicated the engine
weighs approximately 236 pounds. corky, i'll see you on the 19th camera and
questions in hand. Mike, i really enjoyed the tape. i am sure i will go
back to it for the many questions that will certainly arise. I am going to
griffin, Ga this weekend to pick up the engine, some spruce and plywood.
anyone on the list in that area?
and yes, my last name IS outlaw!
Mississippi Outlaw
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
At 7:55 AM -0400 07/01/03, brad.outlaw@faa.gov wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
>
>hello all,
>this is my first message after being subscribed to the list. i just
>recently got BHP plans and have been avidly reading the piet list. i have
>made contact with corky in la and have purchased mike cuy's tape. the list
>provides lots of great discussion on interesting subjects. i would like to
>throw a question out there and get your thoughts on my delimma. I already
>have a Lyc 0-290 D2 engine with only 715 hours. I would like to use this
>engine on my piet but am concerned about the weight. I could certainly sell
>it and get a TCM flat motor if necessary . does anyone know if this engine
>has been used on a piet previously? checking the TCDS indicated the engine
>weighs approximately 236 pounds. corky, i'll see you on the 19th camera and
>questions in hand. Mike, i really enjoyed the tape. i am sure i will go
>back to it for the many questions that will certainly arise. I am going to
>griffin, Ga this weekend to pick up the engine, some spruce and plywood.
>anyone on the list in that area?
>and yes, my last name IS outlaw!
>
>Mississippi Outlaw
Hi Brad,
236 lbs. is about what a Corvair weighs with an electric starter installed,
so I don't think your weight is a problem, but I think an O-290 would be a
lot more power than you'd need. I'll leave to others with more experience
to discuss the ramifications of that issue.
Welcome to the list - are your ancestors from North Carolina by any chance?
there are a lot of Outlaws living in NE NC and SE Va.
Cheers,
Kip Gardner (exiled in Yankee-land) :).
North Canton, OH
Message 4
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
Brad,
Welcome to the list.
The Piet is one of the few planes where a heavy engine could be considered
an advantage, as it helps with the tail heavy situation. The original plans
were drawn using a 250lb plus Model A engine. Lowel Frank usually brings a
Piet to Brodhead with a 145 HP Warner radial, which has more horse power and
must weigh more than your engine. I think 135 HP is overkill for the Piet
but the weight is ok and the based on the above example the aircraft should
be able to handle the power, I have been told that Lowel's plane climbs REAL
good.
I am on the NE side of Atlanta, not exactly on your way to Griffin, but you
are welcome to stop by.
Skip
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
> does anyone know if this engine has been used on a piet previously?
checking the TCDS
> indicated the engine weighs approximately 236 pounds. and questions in
hand.
>Mississippi Outlaw
_
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
Brad and Skip,
I am told that the Warner has a stop on the throttle to prevent full power. I'm
not sure if it's true or not, but it sounds reasonable. No doubt it gives a
better TBO as well...
John
John Ford
jford@indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov Tuesday, July 01, 2003 8:01:07 AM >>>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
Brad,
Welcome to the list.
The Piet is one of the few planes where a heavy engine could be considered
an advantage, as it helps with the tail heavy situation. The original plans
were drawn using a 250lb plus Model A engine. Lowel Frank usually brings a
Piet to Brodhead with a 145 HP Warner radial, which has more horse power and
must weigh more than your engine. I think 135 HP is overkill for the Piet
but the weight is ok and the based on the above example the aircraft should
be able to handle the power, I have been told that Lowel's plane climbs REAL
good.
I am on the NE side of Atlanta, not exactly on your way to Griffin, but you
are welcome to stop by.
Skip
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
> does anyone know if this engine has been used on a piet previously?
checking the TCDS
> indicated the engine weighs approximately 236 pounds. and questions in
hand.
>Mississippi Outlaw
_
Message 6
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
John,
I'll check it out at Brodhead this year, heading that way in just 3 weeks.
Skip
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>I am told that the Warner has a stop on the throttle to prevent full power.
I'm not sure if
>it's true or not, but it sounds reasonable. No doubt it gives a better TBO
as well...
>John
Message 7
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
I'll be there as well, probably driving up Saturday morning..
do not archive
John Ford
jford@indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:24:14 AM >>>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
John,
I'll check it out at Brodhead this year, heading that way in just 3 weeks.
Skip
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>I am told that the Warner has a stop on the throttle to prevent full power.
I'm not sure if
>it's true or not, but it sounds reasonable. No doubt it gives a better TBO
as well...
>John
Message 8
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
John,
Plan to be camped across the field by the wooden outhouse, will have an
extra folding chair for Piet listers.
Skip
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>I'll be there as well, probably driving up Saturday morning..
>do not archive
>John Ford
Message 9
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: William Young <wry22@drexel.edu>
I have just started building my aircamper and am trying to decide what
motor to use. I like several aspects of the corvair, but have concerns
about carb ice problems I have heard of people having with them. Does
anyone have any thoughts on this, am I making a mountain out of a mole
hill?
Thanks, Will Young
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Brad,
Welcome to the list... Hope you find the list helpfull. You will find
lots of friends from all over the world, and also lots help here.
Is a little strange: Your last name Outlaw, your server the faa.gov
Are you planning to fly it as an ultralite? :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Guadalajara, Mexico.
--- brad.outlaw@faa.gov wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
>
> hello all,
> this is my first message after being subscribed to the list. i just
> recently got BHP plans and have been avidly reading the piet list. i
> have
> made contact with corky in la and have purchased mike cuy's tape. the
> list
> provides lots of great discussion on interesting subjects. i would
> like to
> throw a question out there and get your thoughts on my delimma. I
> already
> have a Lyc 0-290 D2 engine with only 715 hours. I would like to use
> this
> engine on my piet but am concerned about the weight. I could
> certainly sell
> it and get a TCM flat motor if necessary . does anyone know if this
> engine
> has been used on a piet previously? checking the TCDS indicated the
> engine
> weighs approximately 236 pounds. corky, i'll see you on the 19th
> camera and
> questions in hand. Mike, i really enjoyed the tape. i am sure i will
> go
> back to it for the many questions that will certainly arise. I am
> going to
> griffin, Ga this weekend to pick up the engine, some spruce and
> plywood.
> anyone on the list in that area?
> and yes, my last name IS outlaw!
>
> Mississippi Outlaw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 11
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
From last two post, I will advise you to watch closely your VNE in
cruise when it is flying.
A pilot here has a Stintson A8 (factory with a 145hp engine), he uses
it as a bush plane with a 6 cyl Aztec twin plane engine (230 hp?) he
is always monitoring the speed. Takes off as an ultralight: In 60 ft @
4,997 ft/ASL.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Good luck with your project and finish it as soon as posible,
--- John Ford <Jford@indstate.edu> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford"
> <Jford@indstate.edu>
>
> Brad and Skip,
>
> I am told that the Warner has a stop on the throttle to prevent full
> power. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but it sounds reasonable.
> No doubt it gives a better TBO as well...
>
> John
>
> John Ford
> jford@indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
>
>
> >>> Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov Tuesday, July 01, 2003 8:01:07 AM >>>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip"
> <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
>
> Brad,
> Welcome to the list.
>
> The Piet is one of the few planes where a heavy engine could be
> considered
> an advantage, as it helps with the tail heavy situation. The original
> plans
> were drawn using a 250lb plus Model A engine. Lowel Frank usually
> brings a
> Piet to Brodhead with a 145 HP Warner radial, which has more horse
> power and
> must weigh more than your engine. I think 135 HP is overkill for the
> Piet
> but the weight is ok and the based on the above example the aircraft
> should
> be able to handle the power, I have been told that Lowel's plane
> climbs REAL
> good.
>
> I am on the NE side of Atlanta, not exactly on your way to Griffin,
> but you
> are welcome to stop by.
>
> Skip
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
> > does anyone know if this engine has been used on a piet previously?
> checking the TCDS
> > indicated the engine weighs approximately 236 pounds. and questions
> in
> hand.
> >Mississippi Outlaw
>
>
> _
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 12
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" <KHallsten@Governair.com>
Hi Will,
Please join us on this list for your Corvair information. http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html
And as far as carb ice, well, I think the one incident with William Wynne is what
you have heard. I don't think the Corvair will have icing problems any different
than other engines. Building carb heat into the project is a must have,
whether you fly a Ford A or Continental, or Lycoming. If you go with a Corvair
you will not be disappointed. They are smooth, powerful, and will be more
than enough in a Piet.
Check out Williams site at www.flycorvair.com where you can read about carb icing.
Kent Hallsten
A slow Pietenpol builder with a 1964 Corvair 110
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Young [mailto:wry22@drexel.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 12:05 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair motors
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: William Young <wry22@drexel.edu>
>
> I have just started building my aircamper and am trying to
> decide what
> motor to use. I like several aspects of the corvair, but
> have concerns
> about carb ice problems I have heard of people having with
> them. Does
> anyone have any thoughts on this, am I making a mountain out
> of a mole
> hill?
>
> Thanks, Will Young
>
Message 13
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Subject: | piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Been there. When the temperatures get down into the 30's, my Cub cruises at
5-10 mph below red line. You bet I keep my eye on it.
...but what a rush on the climb out.
Jim Ash
At 7/1/2003 10:18 AM -0700, you wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
>
> From last two post, I will advise you to watch closely your VNE in
>cruise when it is flying.
>
>A pilot here has a Stintson A8 (factory with a 145hp engine), he uses
>it as a bush plane with a 6 cyl Aztec twin plane engine (230 hp?) he
>is always monitoring the speed. Takes off as an ultralight: In 60 ft @
>4,997 ft/ASL.
>
>Saludos
>Gary Gower
...
Message 14
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Hi DJ. The Piet plans show the front cabanes to be 1" longer then the
rear cabanes. I don't know what the measures in degrees. Good luck with
that c-section. I think I have more labor in the center section then the
rest of my plane added together, with still more to do on it. I wished I
could have had the space to build the one piece wing. Leon S.
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: piet powerplant question |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Doyle K. Combs" <dcombs@Ltex.net>
Kip and Beth
I have a Franklin 100 hp that weighs 250 lbs. I have calculated the weight
of BP' Ford engine and the radiator and feel that I am on the same
plane....at least that is my deduction. I don't think that we are overweight
but I do think we need to watch the CG very carefully.
Doyle Combs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kip & Beth Gardner" <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: piet powerplant question
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip & Beth Gardner
<kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
>
> At 7:55 AM -0400 07/01/03, brad.outlaw@faa.gov wrote:
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: brad.outlaw@faa.gov
> >
> >hello all,
> >this is my first message after being subscribed to the list. i just
> >recently got BHP plans and have been avidly reading the piet list. i have
> >made contact with corky in la and have purchased mike cuy's tape. the
list
> >provides lots of great discussion on interesting subjects. i would like
to
> >throw a question out there and get your thoughts on my delimma. I already
> >have a Lyc 0-290 D2 engine with only 715 hours. I would like to use this
> >engine on my piet but am concerned about the weight. I could certainly
sell
> >it and get a TCM flat motor if necessary . does anyone know if this
engine
> >has been used on a piet previously? checking the TCDS indicated the
engine
> >weighs approximately 236 pounds. corky, i'll see you on the 19th camera
and
> >questions in hand. Mike, i really enjoyed the tape. i am sure i will go
> >back to it for the many questions that will certainly arise. I am going
to
> >griffin, Ga this weekend to pick up the engine, some spruce and plywood.
> >anyone on the list in that area?
> >and yes, my last name IS outlaw!
> >
> >Mississippi Outlaw
>
> Hi Brad,
>
> 236 lbs. is about what a Corvair weighs with an electric starter
installed,
> so I don't think your weight is a problem, but I think an O-290 would be a
> lot more power than you'd need. I'll leave to others with more experience
> to discuss the ramifications of that issue.
>
> Welcome to the list - are your ancestors from North Carolina by any
chance?
> there are a lot of Outlaws living in NE NC and SE Va.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kip Gardner (exiled in Yankee-land) :).
>
> North Canton, OH
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | C.G., Fuel, & Long Legs |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 7/1/03 2:38:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
<< Chuck -
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm just getting into this game. What is your
range for CG? Being within 1/2" of the rear CG might make me a little
cautious, unless the range is really narrow to begin with. Does the
presence or absence of fuel move it around much?
I'd be curious to hear your opinions of aircraft handling with assorted
ballasts to pull the CG forward some. One of the reasons I ask is that I
had a larger and heavier engine put in my Cub, which came with a metal prop
instead of a wood prop (11 lb difference , if I recall), so now I'm nudging
the forward limit. I notice the difference in the flair; my first few
landings were splat landings until I adjusted my habits.
Jim Ash
P.S. I like your tag line. >>
Jim,
B.H.P. stated the aft C.G. limits to be 1/4 chord as the forward limit (25%),
and 1/3 of the chord as the aft limit, which is 33 1/3%. I believe he
determined this, by flying experiments. This makes the forward C.G. limit to be
15"
aft of the leading edge, and 20" aft of the leading edge as the aft limit.
I've never heard of the aft limit of any Hershey bar wing being more than 30%
of the chord. The airfoil is a 'Reflexed Airfoil', or 'Undercambered Airfoil',
meaning the bottom surface is somewhat concave. It's like flying with a
notch of flaps always in, making gobs of lift and drag. This causes the plane
to
have a tremendous amount of negative pitching moment (nose down tendency). To
offset this, the plans call for the wing to have 2 of positive incidence
(it's on the page with the fuselage build up - done by making the front cabane
struts to be 1" longer than the aft cabane struts), and the stab to be 0. I
believe this negative pitching moment is how the Pietenpol gets away with such
an aft C.G. limit so far back.
As far as the fuel changing the C.G., my most aft loading configuration
would be with Zero Fuel, and 205 lb. Pilot, which puts the C.G. to be right on
the aft limit (I hope I never have to land - out of fuel !!). With but 3 gal.
of fuel in the cowling tank (Minimum Fuel), and the wing tank empty, the C.G.
is 19.52" aft of the Leading Edge. With the cowling tank full (10.5 gal.),
wing tank empty, the C.G. is 18.38" aft of the Leading Edge - my Most Forward
loading configuration. With the cowl tank full, wing tank full (9.5 in the
wing), 120 lbs. of fuel - Max Fuel C.G. is 18.60" aft of the Leading edge, with
20 gal. of fuel onboard. This should give me about a 3 1/2 hour range !!
Someday soon, I'm going to check out 'er Long Legs!!! Naturally, with Max
Fuel, the stall speed will go up a little, but as far as the handling
characteristics, I really can't tell much difference in the air, although I did
make a
couple of those 'splat' landings - embarrassing, but a Pietenpol is a tough
airplane !! With more experience I'm sure I'll hone my skills. I practiced
landings yesterday for 1.3 hrs. With a full belly (Max Fuel), she seems to
wallow around on the ground somewhat. I have room to carry a 157 lb. passenger,
max fuel, and still stay under my 1050 lb. gross weight limit.
Chuck Gantzer
Wichita, KS
Leaving for Brodhead on the 23rd !! I'll post my flight plan soon, and see
if any Piet Pals are on the way. One stop I'm planning on is our Hallowed
Ground, in Cherry Grove MN.
Message 17
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "rod wooller" <rodwooller@hotmail.com>
A question (or two) for anyone who has used the 6061-T6 streamline lift
struts from Skytek.
Is the "small" strut (2.44''x1.00") ok to use or do we have to up the size
to the "large" strut seeing that it is 6061 and not steel, as in the plans ?
Have you used the same size for the lift struts and the cabanes ?
Hope to meet plenty of Piet builders at Brodhead (and ask a lot more
questions).
Rod Wooller
Chidlow
Australia
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