---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/02/03: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:03 AM - Re: Parts (TomTravis@aol.com) 2. 07:09 AM - V??? (Isablcorky@aol.com) 3. 09:49 AM - Re: Sunday outing (Prange Larry J CONT PSNS) 4. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts (DJ Vegh) 5. 11:09 AM - Re: uprights next to the spars (Jeff Cours) 6. 11:38 AM - routed spars (DJ Vegh) 7. 11:55 AM - Re: routed spars (Jim Markle) 8. 11:56 AM - Re: routed spars (Greg Cardinal) 9. 12:20 PM - Re: routed spars (DJ Vegh) 10. 02:20 PM - Re: routed spars (Isablcorky@aol.com) 11. 02:20 PM - Re: routed spars (baileys) 12. 06:55 PM - Getting Started (William Rives Young) 13. 09:01 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - I am about to never use them again. (Dmott9@aol.com) 14. 09:08 PM - Re: Getting Started () 15. 09:24 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (DJ Vegh) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:20 AM PST US From: TomTravis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: TomTravis@aol.com I replaced mine with valves from Eagle Fuel Cells and have been very happy with them. Those old Curtiss valves were a pain because it seemed every time I checked the fuel I caused a leak. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:44 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: V??? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Pieters, I wish the Pieter from Mesa whose last name is four letters beginning with V to contact me direct. " I'm on final, below minimums, and need some help" Corky in wet La ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:05 AM PST US From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Hi Terry, Sorry that I didn't get back to you right away . . . The Labor Day weekend/house full of family and all . . . Thanks for the kind words about my ship! Yea, the struts are the Skytek 6061-T6 aluminum ones. ( http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html ) I used the larger ( 3.13" x 1.25" ) ones for the front and the smaller (2.44" x 1" ) ones for the aft. I welded up end fittings out of 4140 square stock. The strut end fittings average about a foot or so long. They go in about two inches past where you see the last bolt. Larry Prange - Partially conscious, Tuesday morning on the Olympic Peninsula. **************************************************************************** **** Time: 04:27:30 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sunday outing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:56:39 AM Central Daylight Time, cdawson5854@shaw.ca writes: > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=140 ************************************************************** I was just admiring the photos of Larry Prange's Piet. What a beautiful job Larry! I have a question about thosae struts. Are those streamline aluminum with steel tube inside for reinforcement? Terry Bowden ph (254) 715-4773 fax (254) 853-3805 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:38 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Larry, I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route? anything you would do differently about them in afterthought? DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS To: 'pietenpol-list@matronics.com' Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Hi Terry, Sorry that I didn't get back to you right away . . . The Labor Day weekend/house full of family and all . . . Thanks for the kind words about my ship! Yea, the struts are the Skytek 6061-T6 aluminum ones. ( http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html ) I used the larger ( 3.13" x 1.25" ) ones for the front and the smaller (2.44" x 1" ) ones for the aft. I welded up end fittings out of 4140 square stock. The strut end fittings average about a foot or so long. They go in about two inches past where you see the last bolt. Larry Prange - Partially conscious, Tuesday morning on the Olympic Peninsula. **************************************************************************** **** Time: 04:27:30 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sunday outing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:56:39 AM Central Daylight Time, cdawson5854@shaw.ca writes: > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID140 ************************************************************** I was just admiring the photos of Larry Prange's Piet. What a beautiful job Larry! I have a question about thosae struts. Are those streamline aluminum with steel tube inside for reinforcement? Terry Bowden ph (254) 715-4773 fax (254) 853-3805 = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:53 AM PST US From: Jeff Cours Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Cours Leon Stefan wrote: > Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both > spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on > the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made > my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the > cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove all > of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of this > interference and weight savings. Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them out altogether, per the original drawings. I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when attaching the rib to the spar. I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to have surfaced long before now. - Jeff C. [1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data: don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches basic stress analysis... ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:38:35 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" How much weight can be eliminated by routing 1" spars? My GN-1 has solid 1" spars and seems to me to be overkill. I wonder what I could expect to save in weight by routing a la Piet. DJ Vegh N74DV www.imagedv.com/aircamper - GFYJF ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Cours To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Cours Leon Stefan wrote: > Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both > spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on > the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made > my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the > cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove all > of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of this > interference and weight savings. Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them out altogether, per the original drawings. I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when attaching the rib to the spar. I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to have surfaced long before now. - Jeff C. [1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data: don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches basic stress analysis... = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:40 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" A search of the matronics Pietenpol archives indicates 8 (likely) lbs at the least and 10-15 at the (unlikely) most. ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Pietenpol-List: routed spars > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > How much weight can be eliminated by routing 1" spars? My GN-1 has solid 1" spars and seems to me to be overkill. I wonder what I could expect to save in weight by routing a la Piet. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > - > > GFYJF > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Cours > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:09 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Cours > > Leon Stefan wrote: > > Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both > > spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on > > the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made > > my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the > > cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove all > > of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of this > > interference and weight savings. > > Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them > out altogether, per the original drawings. > > I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference > in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a > wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil > down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it > seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard > to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when > attaching the rib to the spar. > > I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any > significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it > doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure > zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch > between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted > upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I > don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the > design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to > have surfaced long before now. > > - Jeff C. > > [1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried > a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints > between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in > tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't > know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data: > don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it > ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some > design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches > basic stress analysis... > > > > This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:53 AM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Cardinal" At 28 lbs per cubic foot a Pietenpol will save a little over 5 lbs per spar by routing. Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis >>> aircamper@imagedv.com 09/02/03 01:36PM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" How much weight can be eliminated by routing 1" spars? My GN-1 has solid 1" spars and seems to me to be overkill. I wonder what I could expect to save in weight by routing a la Piet. DJ Vegh N74DV www.imagedv.com/aircamper - GFYJF ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Cours To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:09 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: uprights next to the spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Cours Leon Stefan wrote: > Jeff: I put vertical sticks in my ribs at the spar location - both > spars, front and back of the spar. I found that the vertical piece on > the back of my rear spar interfered with the cable routing when I made > my center section so I removed them. I could make spacers to move the > cables out of the way, but it's adding weight. I am going to remove all > of the vertical braces on the back side of the rear spar because of this > interference and weight savings. Thanks for the info. Between your answer and Jim V's, I may leave them out altogether, per the original drawings. I've been planning on using routed 1" spars -- I figure the difference in weight between 1" routed and 3/4" laminated + spacers is probably a wash, and they should be about the same strength, so it seems to boil down to a matter of cost and construction time. With a routed spar, it seems like that gap between the spar and the upright would make it hard to glue to the upright, so I guess that means gluing top and bottom when attaching the rib to the spar. I've been trying to figure out if the upright contributes any significant mechanical strength. Since it's right next to the spar, it doesn't look like it'd help with compression loads. The low pressure zone above the wing might put a tension load on that little glue patch between the top of the rib and the spars, and without a gussetted upright there's nothing to transfer that load to the rib's underside. I don't know if that's a problem or not.[1] I assume not since the design's been out there since the 30's, and I'd expect any problems to have surfaced long before now. - Jeff C. [1] Unfortunately, I didn't take any stress analysis in school. I tried a back-of-the-envelope calculation where I assumed the glued joints between the tops of the spars and the ribs carried the full load in tension, and then doubled it to allow an extra margin because I didn't know how to figure in the sheer forces from drag, but I ran out of data: don't know the tensile strength of the wood (or the glue, though it ought to be stronger than the wood.) Maybe I need to browse through some design books and ACs. Or see if the local community college teaches basic stress analysis... = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:55 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" thanks..... does anyone have a picture or two or three they could send me of a routed spar? DJ Vegh ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Cardinal To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Greg Cardinal" At 28 lbs per cubic foot a Pietenpol will save a little over 5 lbs per spar by routing. Greg Cardinal in Minneapolis >>> aircamper@imagedv.com 09/02/03 01:36PM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:12 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com DJ, I routed my spars on 41CC.Never worked so hard, made a bigger mess and accomplished so little as that operation. This time my spars are 3/4 as before and they will remain 3/4. I'll save some weight elsewhere. Less than 4 lbs if I remember. Just my 1 cent thrown in but I still remember that messy task. Corky ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:21 PM PST US From: "baileys" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: routed spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "baileys" > does anyone have a picture or two or three they could >send me of a routed spar? How about posting them? Bob B. - Missouri Do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:43 PM PST US From: "William Rives Young" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Getting Started --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "William Rives Young" I have had my plans now for about a year and am finally getting started. I decided to start building wing ribs because I can do that in my dorm. I started on the wing rib jig today and am looking for suggestions from you'll on finishing the jig and starting on the ribs. Thanks Will ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:23 PM PST US From: Dmott9@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - I am about to never use them again. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dmott9@aol.com In a message dated 8/27/03 3:12:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aircamper@imagedv.com writes: > So then I say, "maybe all those other cables are good and I got a bad set. > Just send me a good set." She says no joy. sales are final I am stuck with > them. > > What the hell?? I've spent about $3,500 with them and now they want to lose > me over $70? > > DJ > www.imagedv.com You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling. Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty or the like. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:38 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Getting Started --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Decide on your spar and build your ribs to suit. If I were to build another one, I would give strong consideration to the solid 3/4" spar. No glueing, no routing....simple. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Rives Young" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Getting Started > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "William Rives Young" > > I have had my plans now for about a year and am finally getting started. I decided to start building wing ribs because I can do that in my dorm. I started on the wing rib jig today and am looking for suggestions from you'll on finishing the jig and starting on the ribs. > > Thanks > Will > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:04 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't even meet the cables rated strength. It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom made... You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that AS&S would even sell them to me. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper ------------------------ > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling. > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty or the > like.