---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/03/03: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (Jim Ash) 2. 01:32 AM - piet for sale (Isablcorky@aol.com) 3. 10:07 AM - Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts (Prange Larry J CONT PSNS) 4. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts (DJ Vegh) 5. 11:52 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables () 6. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts (dpilot) 7. 12:01 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (dpilot) 8. 12:34 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (DJ Vegh) 9. 01:16 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (John Ford) 10. 02:08 PM - a little late landing last night........ (Michael D Cuy) 11. 02:17 PM - Re:Don't want to sound like a turd, was= Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (w b evans) 12. 03:00 PM - Re: a little late landing last night........ (w b evans) 13. 03:40 PM - Model A questions (Al Latham) 14. 06:42 PM - Re: a little late landing last night........ (dpilot) 15. 06:44 PM - Re:Don't want to sound like a turd, was= Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables (dpilot) 16. 06:48 PM - Re: Model A questions (dpilot) 17. 10:42 PM - Re: Model A questions (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:48 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash DJ - I grasp the consequences entirely. I had a rudder cable half frayed-through from friction in my Cub. If it have frayed the other half, I wouldn't have been able to land, at least the way I'd like to. There, but for the Grace of God, go I. These people aren't just selling cable, they're selling AIRCRAFT cable. It's implied in their name. I can get clothesline cable at my local hardware store for a lot cheaper, so you're paying dearly for something, even if it is just the manufacturer's lawyers. I'm with you; stick to your guns. Have you got the new cable yet? Jim Ash At 9/2/2003 09:25 PM -0700, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > >to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly >unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not >given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't >even meet the cables rated strength. > >It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was >frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom >made... > >You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact >paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > >Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some >of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I >think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that >AS&S would even sell them to me. > >DJ Vegh >N74DV >Mesa, AZ >www.imagedv.com/aircamper ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:04 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: piet for sale --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com Pieters, Anyone interested or know of anyone interested in purchasing a good Piet w/ a 65 Continental for $ 16 K, please contact me direct. Do not use the net, Please Corky in La DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:36 AM PST US From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Hey DJ! I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is the number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might decrease the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the guys on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how many bolts would be an adequate number . . . For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the other) lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the square stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through. After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the heat, to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt. I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of six foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price. - Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . . . Larry Prange - NX1929A ******************************************************** Time: 10:34:38 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Larry, I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route? anything you would do differently about them in afterthought? DJ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:06 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Thanks Larry. I also purchased the Skytek jury strut kit. I like the streamline extrusion they send with it.... looks good. I'm not sure how I will terminate the ends on my struts but your method sounds good. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS To: 'pietenpol-list@matronics.com' Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Hey DJ! I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is the number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might decrease the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the guys on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how many bolts would be an adequate number . . . For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the other) lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the square stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through. After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the heat, to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt. I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of six foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price. - Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . . . Larry Prange - NX1929A ******************************************************** Time: 10:34:38 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Larry, I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route? anything you would do differently about them in afterthought? DJ = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:17 AM PST US From: "" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell. The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your butt in the air. Chris T. Sacramento, CA Quoting DJ Vegh : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly > unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not > given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't > even meet the cables rated strength. > > It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was > frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom > made... > > You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact > paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > > Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some > of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I > think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that > AS&S would even sell them to me. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > ------------------------ > > > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling. > > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty > or the > > like. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:18 AM PST US From: dpilot Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Remember, the only thing that your lift struts do is keep your flying wires tight. After you get flying you would be OK without any struts JimV. DJ Vegh wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Thanks Larry. I also purchased the Skytek jury strut kit. I like the streamline extrusion they send with it.... looks good. I'm not sure how I will terminate the ends on my struts but your method sounds good. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Prange Larry J CONT PSNS Hey DJ! I like your web site and your graphic-design skills a lot! I am very pleased with the Skytek struts. The only thing that I might change is the number of end fitting mounting bolts that I used on each. I might decrease the number, by one, for each fitting. Sometimes I get a bit carried away when I am not sure about the strength of something. Maybe one of the guys on the list, with a structural engineering background, could tell us how many bolts would be an adequate number . . . For each strut end fitting I used a pair of 'nested' (one inside the other) lengths of square, 0.065", 4130 tube. I then put a short length of very thick, 4130 rod, perpendicular, at the end and wrapped part of the square stock around it before welding, for the end mounting bolt to go through. After welding, I drilled out the short tube, which deforms under the heat, to accommodate size of the end mounting bolt. I also used the Skytek Jury Strut kit. The kit consists of a couple of six foot long lengths (I think they were six feet . . .) of 6061-T6, small streamlined tubing, AN nuts and bolts, aluminum support blocks and instructions. They look good and are very much worth the price. - Gotta finish the Honey-Doos so I can get back to work on the Piet . . . Larry Prange - NX1929A ******************************************************** Time: 10:34:38 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sunday outing - Skytek struts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Larry, I'm using the same Skytek struts. Are you glad you went that route? anything you would do differently about them in afterthought? DJ = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:18 PM PST US From: dpilot Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Would someone tell where these cables are? I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold the loop together. It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time. JimV. wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell. The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your butt in the air. Chris T. Sacramento, CA Quoting DJ Vegh : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly > unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not > given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't > even meet the cables rated strength. > > It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was > frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom > made... > > You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact > paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > > Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some > of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I > think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that > AS&S would even sell them to me. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > ------------------------ > > > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling. > > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty > or the > > like. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:08 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" Jim, I am doing all my cables with swaged ends and fork fittings. More costly? yes, but I like the clean look is provides. DJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: dpilot To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Would someone tell where these cables are? I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold the loop together. It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time. JimV. wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell. The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your butt in the air. Chris T. Sacramento, CA Quoting DJ Vegh : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly > unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not > given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't > even meet the cables rated strength. > > It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was > frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom > made... > > You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact > paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > > Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some > of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I > think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that > AS&S would even sell them to me. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > ------------------------ > > > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling. > > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty > or the > > like. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:05 PM PST US From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" DJ, No refund/no return policies are to guard against fickle buyers and/or buyer's remorse, NOT against paying for a specific thing (airworthy cables) and getting something different THAN WHAT YOU PAID FOR (unairworthy cables). It's at best called bait and switch. You paid for cables which meet certain industry guidlines. If what they sent doesn't meet those industry guidelines, then the liability is theirs. This may all be moot only if they had a disclaimer stating that you *might not get what you order*. They figure (probably correctly) that you're not going to file a class-action lawsuit on behalf of their customers over the years because of a $70.00 order. There are probably thousands of people out there who have had very similar experiences with them. I would like to think that in a similar situation I would a) switch vendors permanently and b) fight it. I might even be tempted to show them (the cables) to people at airshows as an example of "aircraft quality" (see what AS&S thinks of this idea). If people expect to get trash for their money, then that's what the seller is going to provide. Replacing your cables (with their volume) would probably cost them, what, $25.00 or $30.00 including labor? Probably much less, and a smart manager would have done it twice already if only to avoid the negative word of mouth... John do not archive John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> dpilot@yahoo.com Wednesday, September 03, 2003 2:01:06 PM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Would someone tell where these cables are? I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold the loop together. It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time. JimV. wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't trust you it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me wounder if Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell. The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who teaches people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always check your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size and defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality does not mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but it's your butt in the air. Chris T. Sacramento, CA Quoting DJ Vegh : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly > unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does not > given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they won't > even meet the cables rated strength. > > It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the cable was > frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's custom > made... > > You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are in fact > paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > > Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like some > of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. I > think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I am that > AS&S would even sell them to me. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > ------------------------ > > > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your schooling. > > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get warranty > or the > > like. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:06 PM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: a little late landing last night........ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Group-- I was coming back from a fellow pilot's nice farm strip west of Cleveland last evening in the Pietenpol and had a little headwind, left a little late, and got to my home airport a little later than usual. Boy those city lights looked beautiful ! An ultralight that was out of our airport had keyed the runway lights to come on just about when I arrived and that made it even nicer. I hadn't flown this close to night in a while and what struck me funny is how many of those cell phone towers have strobes on them and blink all over the vista of your view like a low level fireworks show here, there, and everywhere. What is legal VFR anyway.....sunset or 30 minutes past ? (good thing he didn't ask me that on my flight review a few weeks ago !) I don't make a habit of flying that late, but haven't you guys noticed that the dog gone sunset time has gotten waaaay too early these days ? Get all the flying in you can, Walt Evans in NJ. Those boys in Texas and Louisianna and Florida can fly all year long, but it gets nippy towards sunset in Ohio these next few months and the sunset makes me leave work early sometimes ! Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:22 PM PST US From: "w b evans" Subject: Re:Don't want to sound like a turd, was= Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" DJ and all, Not to jump in here and sound like a big turd, but in the last 5 or 6 years, and thru two projects, Aircraft Spruce has only given me top notch service. In all that time there was only one order screwed up. I had ordered aircraft cable to make all the strut wires. I think the order was for like, 40 ft. the order was recieved in a coil, but the coil consisted of about 5 pieces. the shortest being about 8 ft. long. Thought , what can I do with this garbage. That evening I emailed AS&S with a poison letter saying that I didn't realize that I was getting "floor sweepings". The next day there was a messege from the orders manager, that included a BIG apoligy, and saying that the problem would be delt with at their end. Also that my proper order was on it's way, and be sure to keep the first order with their compliments. Guess I'm a realist, and realize that the company has more than one location, with lots of people, that ""Jim"" can't watch over every minute. You probably got one of the new kids, or dead wood , that would soon move out. DJ, believe me that I don't side with the "get a life" guy, But you did say that when you talked to them directly, they agreed to make good on the cables. Thats the great thing about building you're own plane. You are your own little company, and that day you didn't let a bad part get thru QC. Good for you. The following isn't for the guys that are flying, only those still glueing,,,,,,It's been said many times before, but (like last Sunday) when you are flying along at 800 AGL on a very misty morning, when the whispy clouds are drifting BELOW you, and the ground fog is in all the valleys,,,,It will all be OK. Ain't life grand? Yes, It's very grand! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > DJ, > > No refund/no return policies are to guard against fickle buyers and/or > buyer's remorse, NOT against paying for a specific thing (airworthy > cables) and getting something different THAN WHAT YOU PAID FOR > (unairworthy cables). It's at best called bait and switch. You paid > for cables which meet certain industry guidlines. If what they sent > doesn't meet those industry guidelines, then the liability is theirs. > This may all be moot only if they had a disclaimer stating that you > *might not get what you order*. They figure (probably correctly) that > you're not going to file a class-action lawsuit on behalf of their > customers over the years because of a $70.00 order. There are probably > thousands of people out there who have had very similar experiences with > them. I would like to think that in a similar situation I would a) > switch vendors permanently and b) fight it. I might even be tempted to > show them (the cables) to people at airshows as an example of "aircraft > quality" (see what AS&S thinks of this idea). If people expect to get > trash for their money, then that's what the seller is going to provide. > Replacing your cables (with their volume) would probably cost them, > what, $25.00 or $30.00 including labor? Probably much less, and a smart > manager would have done it twice already if only to avoid the negative > word of mouth... > > John > > do not archive > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > > > >>> dpilot@yahoo.com Wednesday, September 03, 2003 2:01:06 PM >>> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot > > Would someone tell where these cables are? > I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold > the loop together. > It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time. > JimV. > > > wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" > > I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't > trust you > it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me > wounder if > Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell. > > The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who > teaches > people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always > check > your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper > thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size > and > defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality > does not > mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but > it's your > butt in the air. > > Chris T. > Sacramento, CA > > > Quoting DJ Vegh : > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly > > unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does > not > > given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they > won't > > even meet the cables rated strength. > > > > It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the > cable was > > frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's > custom > > made... > > > > You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are > in fact > > paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > > > > Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like > some > > of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. > I > > think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I > am that > > AS&S would even sell them to me. > > > > DJ Vegh > > N74DV > > Mesa, AZ > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > > ------------------------ > > > > > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your > schooling. > > > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get > warranty > > or the > > > like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:33 PM PST US From: "w b evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a little late landing last night........ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" Mike C., Been trying, but the showers have been here for far toooooo long. But, you know, I had a number of flights this summer that will carry me thru the winter with great memories. Life is grand! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Pietenpol-List: a little late landing last night........ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > Group-- I was coming back from a fellow pilot's nice farm strip west of > Cleveland last evening in the Pietenpol and had a little headwind, left a > little late, and got to my home airport a little later than usual. Boy > those city lights looked beautiful ! An ultralight that was out of our > airport had keyed the runway lights to come on just about when I arrived > and that made it even nicer. I hadn't flown this close to night in a > while and what struck me funny is how many of those cell phone towers have > strobes on them and blink all over the vista of your view like a low level > fireworks show here, there, and everywhere. What is legal VFR > anyway.....sunset or 30 minutes past ? (good thing he didn't ask me that > on my flight review a few weeks ago !) I don't make a habit of flying > that late, but haven't you guys noticed that the dog gone sunset time has > gotten waaaay too early these days ? Get all the flying in you can, Walt > Evans in NJ. Those boys in Texas and Louisianna and Florida can fly all > year long, but it gets nippy towards sunset in Ohio these next few months > and the sunset makes me leave work early sometimes ! > > Mike C. > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:51 PM PST US From: "Al Latham" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Al Latham" Model A Guys, I pulled the heads off of the pair of A's that I bought. One is +.080 and the other is +.100 bore wise. What is the largest overbore that you can go and is it considered safe for aircraft use. I've dealt with thin cylinder walls on VW engines before and I don't want to get into that. One car guy told me that when they get to .080 he has them sleeved, has anyone gone this route or is it necessary? I had an airplane guy tell me that this wasn't necessary due to the fact that you can overbore to 3/16", I had heard .125 but not 3/16". I'll most likely pull them down and have the cranks and rods magnafluxed and blocks hot tanked and checked for cracks and then set them aside till later on this winter. Also need to come up with a set of head studs as one didn't have any. Meeting with a guy this week about doing my Menasco bearings, will hit him up for these also. Al Latham ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:39 PM PST US From: dpilot Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: a little late landing last night........ --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Mike, Reminds me of the time I and two friends were camping on Mr. Pietenpols airfield. I thought I would fly kinda low over Cherry Grove in the full moonlight. I wanted to make it a midnight flight, but couldn't wait I took off at 11:30. No blinking towers back then. It was a wonderful flight. JimV. Michael D Cuy wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Group-- I was coming back from a fellow pilot's nice farm strip west of Cleveland last evening in the Pietenpol and had a little headwind, left a little late, and got to my home airport a little later than usual. Boy those city lights looked beautiful ! An ultralight that was out of our airport had keyed the runway lights to come on just about when I arrived and that made it even nicer. I hadn't flown this close to night in a while and what struck me funny is how many of those cell phone towers have strobes on them and blink all over the vista of your view like a low level fireworks show here, there, and everywhere. What is legal VFR anyway.....sunset or 30 minutes past ? (good thing he didn't ask me that on my flight review a few weeks ago !) I don't make a habit of flying that late, but haven't you guys noticed that the dog gone sunset time has gotten waaaay too early these days ? Get all the flying in you can, Walt Evans in NJ. Those boys in Texas and Louisianna and Florida can fly all year long, but it gets nippy towards sunset in Ohio these next few months and the sunset makes me leave work early sometimes ! Mike C. do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:49 PM PST US From: dpilot Subject: Re:Don't want to sound like a turd, was= Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Especially when the telephone poles are poking up through the fog JimV. w b evans wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" DJ and all, Not to jump in here and sound like a big turd, but in the last 5 or 6 years, and thru two projects, Aircraft Spruce has only given me top notch service. In all that time there was only one order screwed up. I had ordered aircraft cable to make all the strut wires. I think the order was for like, 40 ft. the order was recieved in a coil, but the coil consisted of about 5 pieces. the shortest being about 8 ft. long. Thought , what can I do with this garbage. That evening I emailed AS&S with a poison letter saying that I didn't realize that I was getting "floor sweepings". The next day there was a messege from the orders manager, that included a BIG apoligy, and saying that the problem would be delt with at their end. Also that my proper order was on it's way, and be sure to keep the first order with their compliments. Guess I'm a realist, and realize that the company has more than one location, with lots of people, that ""Jim"" can't watch over every minute. You probably got one of the new kids, or dead wood , that would soon move out. DJ, believe me that I don't side with the "get a life" guy, But you did say that when you talked to them directly, they agreed to make good on the cables. Thats the great thing about building you're own plane. You are your own little company, and that day you didn't let a bad part get thru QC. Good for you. The following isn't for the guys that are flying, only those still glueing,,,,,,It's been said many times before, but (like last Sunday) when you are flying along at 800 AGL on a very misty morning, when the whispy clouds are drifting BELOW you, and the ground fog is in all the valleys,,,,It will all be OK. Ain't life grand? Yes, It's very grand! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce - custom made cables > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > DJ, > > No refund/no return policies are to guard against fickle buyers and/or > buyer's remorse, NOT against paying for a specific thing (airworthy > cables) and getting something different THAN WHAT YOU PAID FOR > (unairworthy cables). It's at best called bait and switch. You paid > for cables which meet certain industry guidlines. If what they sent > doesn't meet those industry guidelines, then the liability is theirs. > This may all be moot only if they had a disclaimer stating that you > *might not get what you order*. They figure (probably correctly) that > you're not going to file a class-action lawsuit on behalf of their > customers over the years because of a $70.00 order. There are probably > thousands of people out there who have had very similar experiences with > them. I would like to think that in a similar situation I would a) > switch vendors permanently and b) fight it. I might even be tempted to > show them (the cables) to people at airshows as an example of "aircraft > quality" (see what AS&S thinks of this idea). If people expect to get > trash for their money, then that's what the seller is going to provide. > Replacing your cables (with their volume) would probably cost them, > what, $25.00 or $30.00 including labor? Probably much less, and a smart > manager would have done it twice already if only to avoid the negative > word of mouth... > > John > > do not archive > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > > > >>> dpilot@yahoo.com Wednesday, September 03, 2003 2:01:06 PM >>> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot > > Would someone tell where these cables are? > I made all mine by looping the cable and squeezing a nicopress to hold > the loop together. > It sure is cheap and has worked well for a long time. > JimV. > > > wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" > > I would be interested in seeing a picture or two. Not that I don't > trust you > it's I just want to see if I would have caught it. All this make me > wounder if > Aircraft Spruce is checking the quality of stuff they sell. > > The best advice I got when I started to build was from a friend who > teaches > people how to build RV's (the flying type) and it was this: Always > check > your wood for defects and quality, always check your steel for proper > thickness, size and for defects, always check your hardware for size > and > defects. Just because they (the supplier) say it is aircraft quality > does not > mean it is. It's only their reputation and business on the line but > it's your > butt in the air. > > Chris T. > Sacramento, CA > > > Quoting DJ Vegh : > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > to some extent I don't agree with that.... these cables are clearly > > unairworthy. I understand custom made means no returns but that does > not > > given them the right to send cables that are made so poorly that they > won't > > even meet the cables rated strength. > > > > It'd be like saying no returns on a custom cable even though the > cable was > > frayed through 3 of the 7 strands of 19... no returns because it's > custom > > made... > > > > You expect them to be made properly when you purchase them. You are > in fact > > paying for a cable you can use not one you can't. > > > > Maybe I should post a picture or two of these cables...... seems like > some > > of you aren't fully grasping the consequences if I were to use them. > I > > think if you saw them first hand you'd understand how dumbfounded I > am that > > AS&S would even sell them to me. > > > > DJ Vegh > > N74DV > > Mesa, AZ > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > > ------------------------ > > > > > You could look at it this way: Its $70 tuition towards your > schooling. > > > Lessons learned. Custom made usually sold as-is, unless you get > warranty > > or the > > > like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > --------------------------------- > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:41 PM PST US From: dpilot Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot I'm not a Model A person (T's are my cup of 'T') But I would look at a catalog from one of the speciality parts houses, and see if they offer a special set of high strength studs. I've heard the "A" boys talk about them. Ask Grant MacClaren. JimV. Al Latham wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Al Latham" Model A Guys, I pulled the heads off of the pair of A's that I bought. One is +.080 and the other is +.100 bore wise. What is the largest overbore that you can go and is it considered safe for aircraft use. I've dealt with thin cylinder walls on VW engines before and I don't want to get into that. One car guy told me that when they get to .080 he has them sleeved, has anyone gone this route or is it necessary? I had an airplane guy tell me that this wasn't necessary due to the fact that you can overbore to 3/16", I had heard .125 but not 3/16". I'll most likely pull them down and have the cranks and rods magnafluxed and blocks hot tanked and checked for cracks and then set them aside till later on this winter. Also need to come up with a set of head studs as one didn't have any. Meeting with a guy this week about doing my Menasco bearings, will hit him up for these also. Al Latham --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:28 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 9/3/03 5:42:05 PM Central Daylight Time, geebeed@grm.net writes: << What is the largest overbore that you can go and is it considered safe for aircraft use. >> The place that did the babbit on mine, told me a Model A engine can be bored .125" over. I think that is pretty extreme, but you can get aftermarket pistons that size. Mine was .060" over. I would suggest you use forged pistons, instead of the cast alum pistons, and drill the crank and go with a pressure oiling system. These stock engines have to opporate at 80% power, or more, just to maintain level flight. Chuck G.