Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Wed 09/10/03


Total Messages Posted: 19



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:36 AM - Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides (Gene Rambo)
     2. 06:08 AM - Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron (Robert Gow)
     3. 07:06 AM - Re: Model a engine blocks (Robert Haines)
     4. 07:19 AM - Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron (Christian Bobka)
     5. 07:38 AM - Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides ()
     6. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: Model a engine blocks (Robert Gow)
     7. 08:15 AM - Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides (Gadd, Skip)
     8. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Model a engine blocks (Mike)
     9. 12:29 PM - Finally (Ken Rickards)
    10. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Model a engine blocks (Ken Hannan)
    11. 12:43 PM - Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides (w b evans)
    12. 01:00 PM - Brodhead photos (John Ford)
    13. 02:37 PM - struts that join the two fuselages (NormDecou@aol.com)
    14. 03:06 PM - HUBS (Ken Hannan)
    15. 03:06 PM - Re: struts that join the two fuselages (Gene Rambo)
    16. 03:09 PM - Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron (Gene Rambo)
    17. 03:13 PM - Re: struts that join the two fuselages (Gene Rambo)
    18. 04:00 PM - Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron (Jack Phillips)
    19. 06:09 PM - Re: Jury Strut's purpose (Bert Conoly)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:36:57 AM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Not a bad question . . . I think all of the other answers are right, put the gussets on first, the strength of these pieces is in compression anyway. Glueing it to the floorboard does more than what would be gained by notching the gusset anyway. BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, what gear are you using? and which fuselage are you building??? There are considerations that MUST be made regarding these pieces, size, location. Mike Cuy and others can verify that I brought up this point at Brodhead and most others had not noticed. I am late for work now and I will detail what I am talking about later. Let me know which gear/fuselage. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: <NormDecou@aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselage sides > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: NormDecou@aol.com > > Hi, > I have reviewed all the pietenpol videos and pictures that I have been able > to get at fly-in's and off the Internet. I cannot determine for certain if the > wooden struts (ash and spruce) that join the two fuselage sides are to be > glued to the spruce or onto the inside gussets (e.g. should gussets on the inside > of the fuselage sides be notched out in areas where they prevent the spruce > struts from contacting the spruce on the fuselage sides). I just don't know > what is the preferred practise. > Sorry for asking such a basic question but I have two fuselage sides which I > have just finished that were meant for each other and I don't want to keep > them apart any longer than I have to. > Norm & Adrienne Decou > NormDecou@aol.com > Full set of ribs and fuselage sides done > tail feathers, and Corvair engine in progress > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:08:31 AM PST US
    From: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca>
    Subject: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent air the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis was performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded that without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot <dpilot@yahoo.com> You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the airspeed pitot. Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate. My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off. I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer JimV. "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com> wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane... By the way, how do you feel about jury struts? -----Original Message----- From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot@yahoo.com] Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot Actually, "John" has a point. I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no problems. I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with changing the plans. JimV. John Ford wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to heart... John John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> aircamper@imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy who told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables. he sends me an email today saying " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I have restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after two years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and less time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the (explative deleted) are you?" Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I do spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with you folks on this list. I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual who likes to share with others. I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a Piet in 2 years. I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this may generate. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper --------------------------------- ---------------------------------


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:06:58 AM PST US
    From: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Model a engine blocks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com> Ken, That block looks great! I appears to have the same dimensions as the A so the difference would be between the cast iron structure supporting a babbit bearing vs. an aluminum structure supporting a insert bearing. I would be concerned about two areas, the effective thrust area of insert bearing on the crank and the ability of the aluminum case to support the gyroscopic loads of the prop. Considering that they cast the block themselves and likely machine the crank, it would be worth a phone call to see if they would add a few inches on the end of the crank and add few inches of snout (for lack of a better word) to the end of the block. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:19:04 AM PST US
    From: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
    Subject: Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com> that's not why you have jury struts... Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "dpilot" <dpilot@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot <dpilot@yahoo.com> > > You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the airspeed pitot. > Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate. > My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off. > I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer > JimV. > > "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" > > So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane... > By the way, how do you feel about jury struts? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot@yahoo.com] > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot > > Actually, "John" has a point. > I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of > mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no > problems. > I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to > be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with > changing the plans. > > JimV. > > > John Ford wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you > expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody > else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad > and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his > not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that > your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by > everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet > (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about > issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I > hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and > see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all > share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have > different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to > heart... > > John > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > > > >>> aircamper@imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy > who > told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables. > > he sends me an email today saying > > " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I > have > restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after > two > years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and > less > time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the > (explative > deleted) are you?" > > Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I > do > spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my > construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with > you > folks on this list. > > I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual > who > likes to share with others. > > I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a > Piet in > 2 years. > > I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this > may > generate. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > --------------------------------- > > > --------------------------------- > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:38:59 AM PST US
    From: "" <catdesign@intergate.com>
    Subject: Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" <catdesign@intergate.com> I'd have to agree with DJ that it can be done both ways. On mine I glued on the gussets then the cross pieces. Chris T. Sacramento, CA Quoting "" <NormDecou@aol.com>: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: NormDecou@aol.com > > Hi, > I have reviewed all the pietenpol videos and pictures that I have been able > to get at fly-in's and off the Internet. I cannot determine for certain if > the > wooden struts (ash and spruce) that join the two fuselage sides are to be > glued to the spruce or onto the inside gussets (e.g. should gussets on the > inside > of the fuselage sides be notched out in areas where they prevent the spruce > struts from contacting the spruce on the fuselage sides). I just don't know > > what is the preferred practise. > Sorry for asking such a basic question but I have two fuselage sides which I > > have just finished that were meant for each other and I don't want to keep > them apart any longer than I have to. > Norm & Adrienne Decou > NormDecou@aol.com > Full set of ribs and fuselage sides done > tail feathers, and Corvair engine in progress > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:47:05 AM PST US
    From: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca>
    Subject: Re: Model a engine blocks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> I talked to them. They make about 25 at a time. They are about $13,000 each assembled (long block). They sold one to Hawaii for a Peietenpol. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert Haines Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model a engine blocks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Haines" <robertsjunk@hotmail.com> Ken, That block looks great! I appears to have the same dimensions as the A so the difference would be between the cast iron structure supporting a babbit bearing vs. an aluminum structure supporting a insert bearing. I would be concerned about two areas, the effective thrust area of insert bearing on the crank and the ability of the aluminum case to support the gyroscopic loads of the prop. Considering that they cast the block themselves and likely machine the crank, it would be worth a phone call to see if they would add a few inches on the end of the crank and add few inches of snout (for lack of a better word) to the end of the block. Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:15:27 AM PST US
    From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
    Subject: struts that join the two fuselage sides
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov> I have to say it is better to glue the gussets first than glue the cross pieces. For the spruce pieces it is better because the gusset is stronger, when it does not have a notch cut in it, and the end grain glue joint doesn't hold much anyway. For the 3" Ash pieces on the floor it is even more important because they act mainly in compression and it seems the gusset would act as a buffer to prevent the hard end grain of the ash from pushing into the relatively soft side grain of the spruce longeron. Skip -


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:22:53 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Model a engine blocks
    From: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net> on 9/10/03 7:46, Robert Gow at rgow@avionicsdesign.ca wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> > > I talked to them. They make about 25 at a time. They are about $13,000 > each assembled (long block). They sold one to Hawaii for a Peietenpol. > > Bob > Ouch! I might have considered one before hearing that. Kind of puts the Rotec R-2800 radial (~$12000, complete and already through test runs) in a better perspective. Mike


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:29:57 PM PST US
    From: "Ken Rickards" <pietbuilder@cogeco.ca>
    Subject: Finally
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Rickards" <pietbuilder@cogeco.ca> Finally after 3 months of not building ( work & travel ) I am back at it. I changed the ailerons to match the original BP design and will be using the same piano hinge set up that Mike Cuy used. Hope to get all the ribs finished by mid November, the horiz stab finished by Christmas and then its on the fuse. http://home.cogeco.ca/~pietbuilder/index.htm Ken GN1 2992 Canada


    Message 10


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    Time: 12:36:42 PM PST US
    From: "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Model a engine blocks
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc@verizon.net> Maybe this would be a better choice http://www.handhantique.com/touring.htm Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model a engine blocks > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike <bike.mike@verizon.net> > > on 9/10/03 7:46, Robert Gow at rgow@avionicsdesign.ca wrote: > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> > > > > I talked to them. They make about 25 at a time. They are about $13,000 > > each assembled (long block). They sold one to Hawaii for a Peietenpol. > > > > Bob > > > Ouch! I might have considered one before hearing that. Kind of puts the > Rotec R-2800 radial (~$12000, complete and already through test runs) in a > better perspective. > Mike > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:43:59 PM PST US
    From: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: struts that join the two fuselage sides
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "w b evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> The ash pieces on the floor would only be in compression on the ground. In the air they're in tension. The struts are trying to pull the floor in two different directions. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselage sides > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov> > >. > For the 3" Ash pieces on the floor it is even more important because they > act mainly in compression and it seems the gusset would act as a buffer to > prevent the hard end grain of the ash from pushing into the relatively soft > side grain of the spruce longeron. > Skip > > - > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:00:01 PM PST US
    From: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
    Subject: Brodhead photos
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu> I just uploaded a pile of photos from Brodhead 2003. I don't know how long it will be before they are posted. Hopefully there are pictures of some useful details and maybe some answers to some puzzles. I was somewhat embarrassed to be taking so many pictures, but now I wish I had taken a lot more and talked to a lot more of you. What a cool event... John do not archive John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:37:50 PM PST US
    From: NormDecou@aol.com
    Subject: struts that join the two fuselages
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: NormDecou@aol.com Thanks for the answers to my question. I will be able to move ahead and finish the primary fuselage structure now. Gene I will be using the wooden landing gear. I will be installing brakes and this will cause me to move the gear forward but I have not yet established how far. I think that this may affect the final location of the 3/4 x 2" ash cross struts on the fuselage floor (I am building the extended fuselage). I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks again everyone, Norm and Adrienne Decou NormDecou@aol.com


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:06:45 PM PST US
    From: "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc@verizon.net>
    Subject: HUBS
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Hannan" <isp.inc@verizon.net> I just received the wheel hubs for my piet from Ken Perkins kenandvernaperkins@sbcglobal.net very nice and only $150.00 dollars a pair with the bushings installed. Ken


    Message 15


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    Time: 03:06:46 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: struts that join the two fuselages
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Moving the gear (i.e. axle) position forward would not change the attachment points on the fuselage which are dictated by the underlying structure. If you are using the wooden gear and the original style fittings, you would NOT put on any ash cross pieces, they are not in the fuselage that uses the wood gear. Instead, there is only the 1" square spruce just like the rest of the fuselage. If you want to use the ash pieces, you will have to use modified gear fittings such as those designed by Frank Pavliga. Also, you may have to make the ash slightly over 2" and/or move them forward or aft a little bit to make the attachments line up with the underlying structure. Also, what I noticed at Brodhead, is that when putting wood gear on the "Improved" fuselage, the strut attach fittings are not the same distance apart as the wing spars, so the struts are NOT parallel to each other. Those airplanes using the "long" fuselage seemed to have these fittings the correct distance apart so that the struts are parallel, but this may take some jockeying as well. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: <NormDecou@aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselages > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: NormDecou@aol.com > > Thanks for the answers to my question. I will be able to move ahead and > finish the primary fuselage structure now. > Gene I will be using the wooden landing gear. I will be installing > brakes and this will cause me to move the gear forward but I have not yet > established how far. I think that this may affect the final location of the 3/4 x > 2" ash cross struts on the fuselage floor (I am building the extended > fuselage). I look forward to hearing from you. > Thanks again everyone, > Norm and Adrienne Decou > NormDecou@aol.com > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 03:09:41 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Jury struts are to prevent the struts from setting up a harmonic vibration which would break the end fittings, not to allow negative G flight. They are usually an odd distance from the ends (not 1/2 or 1/4 way) to prevent such vibrations from getting started. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> > > Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in > negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the > aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent air > the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis was > performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded that > without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is > less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot <dpilot@yahoo.com> > > You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the > airspeed pitot. > Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate. > My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off. > I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer > JimV. > > "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" > > So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane... > By the way, how do you feel about jury struts? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot@yahoo.com] > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot > > Actually, "John" has a point. > I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of > mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no > problems. > I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to > be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with > changing the plans. > > JimV. > > > John Ford wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you > expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody > else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad > and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his > not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that > your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by > everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet > (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about > issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I > hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and > see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all > share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have > different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to > heart... > > John > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > > > >>> aircamper@imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy > who > told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables. > > he sends me an email today saying > > " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I > have > restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after > two > years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and > less > time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the > (explative > deleted) are you?" > > Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I > do > spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my > construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with > you > folks on this list. > > I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual > who > likes to share with others. > > I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a > Piet in > 2 years. > > I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this > may > generate. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > --------------------------------- > > > --------------------------------- > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:13:12 PM PST US
    From: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: struts that join the two fuselages
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Also, someone responded to my comment that the ash pieces are mostly for compression. While it is true that FLIGHT loads place the cross pieces in tension, this is minor compared to the compression loads transmitted through the gear when landing on a rough surface. If flight loads were the only concern, a 1" square cross piece would be good enough (and probably is anyway), but a larger ash piece was added to beef up the gear. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: <NormDecou@aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: struts that join the two fuselages > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: NormDecou@aol.com > > Thanks for the answers to my question. I will be able to move ahead and > finish the primary fuselage structure now. > Gene I will be using the wooden landing gear. I will be installing > brakes and this will cause me to move the gear forward but I have not yet > established how far. I think that this may affect the final location of the 3/4 x > 2" ash cross struts on the fuselage floor (I am building the extended > fuselage). I look forward to hearing from you. > Thanks again everyone, > Norm and Adrienne Decou > NormDecou@aol.com > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 04:00:56 PM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: John Ficklen - this guys a moron
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Jury struts ARE intended to prevent buckling of the main lift struts under negative G. You are right that they should NOT be in the middle of the lift strut , which would be a stationary node during vibration. This way they also tend to reduce vibration in the struts, but the primary purpose is to prevent buckling of the lift struts when they are in compresion, which they would be under negative G conditions. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> Jury struts are to prevent the struts from setting up a harmonic vibration which would break the end fittings, not to allow negative G flight. They are usually an odd distance from the ends (not 1/2 or 1/4 way) to prevent such vibrations from getting started. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> > > Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in > negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the > aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent air > the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis was > performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded that > without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is > less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot <dpilot@yahoo.com> > > You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the > airspeed pitot. > Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate. > My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off. > I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer > JimV. > > "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" > > So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane... > By the way, how do you feel about jury struts? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot@yahoo.com] > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot > > Actually, "John" has a point. > I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all of > mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no > problems. > I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to > be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with > changing the plans. > > JimV. > > > John Ford wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you > expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody > else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad > and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his > not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that > your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by > everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet > (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about > issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I > hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and > see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all > share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have > different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to > heart... > > John > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > > > >>> aircamper@imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy > who > told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables. > > he sends me an email today saying > > " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I > have > restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after > two > years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and > less > time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the > (explative > deleted) are you?" > > Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I > do > spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my > construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with > you > folks on this list. > > I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual > who > likes to share with others. > > I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a > Piet in > 2 years. > > I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this > may > generate. > > DJ Vegh > N74DV > Mesa, AZ > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > --------------------------------- > > > --------------------------------- > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 06:09:28 PM PST US
    From: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Jury Strut's purpose
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bert Conoly" <bconoly@earthlink.net> Jack. You are correct. If I can remember correctly... (I do have CRS disease you know) - a column's ability to carry compressive load is indirectly proportional to the square of a property of the beam called the slenderness ratio. The slenderness ratio is a factor arrived at by comparing (ratio of) the length of the column to the width (not really the width -sort of - it's more complicated than this but for all practical purposes this will work) of the column. OK OK Enough! So basically the column can be "pinned" (or stabilized) at some point to stop the buckling action. This dramatically increases a column's ability to take cmpressive loads. That's what the jury strut does. It's pretty complicated in real column loading. So if anybody's really bored or has insomnia, several books are out there on column loading. I'm not a structural guy. This is the sum total of what I remember about a course 25 years ago. Ok, my head hurts now. Back to the TV. Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net> > > Jury struts ARE intended to prevent buckling of the main lift struts under > negative G. You are right that they should NOT be in the middle of the lift > strut , which would be a stationary node during vibration. This way they > also tend to reduce vibration in the struts, but the primary purpose is to > prevent buckling of the lift struts when they are in compresion, which they > would be under negative G conditions. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:09 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" <rambog@erols.com> > > Jury struts are to prevent the struts from setting up a harmonic vibration > which would break the end fittings, not to allow negative G flight. They > are usually an odd distance from the ends (not 1/2 or 1/4 way) to prevent > such vibrations from getting started. > > Gene > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" > <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> > > > > Jury struts are required to prevent failure of the main struts when in > > negative "G". Normally the struts are in tension but if you subject the > > aircraft to negative "G" by flying inverted or by penetrating turbulent > air > > the struts are in compression and can cripple (bend). A stress analysis > was > > performed by a mechanical engineer once that I remember which concluded > that > > without the jury struts the main struts would fail at about -1 G. This is > > less than required for certified aircraft and not terribly safe. > > > > Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of dpilot > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot <dpilot@yahoo.com> > > > > You don't need jury struts with a Corvair engine, except to hold the > > airspeed pitot. > > Smooth enough it doesn't vibrate. > > My airspeed broke several years ago, so I took them all off. > > I don't remember where the #7 wood screws are, so can't answer > > JimV. > > > > "Hubbard, Eugene" <ehubbard@titan.com> wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hubbard, Eugene" > > > > So Jim, tell us about the #7 wood screws holding the tail on your plane... > > By the way, how do you feel about jury struts? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dpilot [mailto:dpilot@yahoo.com] > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: John Ficklen - this guys a moron > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dpilot > > > > Actually, "John" has a point. > > I don't know what kind of cables are being discussed here, as I built all > of > > mine with a $19.95 nicopress masher, and have flown over 400 hours with no > > problems. > > I guess if you want to get fancy and make things better than they need to > > be, a lot of people dont want to hear about the problems associated with > > changing the plans. > > > > JimV. > > > > > > John Ford wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > > > I deal with people like him rather often (computer support - what do you > > expect!). Happiness being a relative thing, they try to make everybody > > else unhappy to raise their relative level of happiness. It is both sad > > and humorous at the same time. I hope we don't read about him and his > > not-worried-about cables in an NTSB report somewhere, and I hope that > > your concerns of quality (and others expressed daily on this list by > > everybody) make an impression on him. I haven't started building yet > > (have to finish the house first), and you all have made me think about > > issues I may never have considered if I were building in a vacuum. I > > hope you make it to Brodhead when you're finished and I can meet you and > > see your plane. I hope he makes it to Brodhead as well, so we can all > > share and enjoy what we've got for awhile and realize we all have > > different ideas and values. It's not worth taking this kind of thing to > > heart... > > > > John > > > > John Ford > > john@indstate.edu > > 812-237-8542 > > > > > > >>> aircamper@imagedv.com Friday, August 29, 2003 9:33:25 AM >>> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > > > I'm really ticked at this John Ficklen character on this list. the guy > > who > > told me to "get a life" because I was worried about my AS&S cables. > > > > he sends me an email today saying > > > > " I'm a prominent aviation artist, model builder, and historian. I > > have > > restoried several antique airplanes and my Piet will fly in Dec. after > > two > > years work. If you spent more time in your shop with Tony B's books and > > less > > time on the computer you would probably get more done. Who the > > (explative > > deleted) are you?" > > > > Who is he to judge me on how fast I build my project? And yes.... I > > do > > spend alot of time on the computer.... I spend hours updating my > > construction/pictures log online. I spend hours discussing issues with > > you > > folks on this list. > > > > I guess I just consider myself an involved Piet community individual > > who > > likes to share with others. > > > > I'm sorry Mr. Ficklen that I'm not a recluse like you who finished a > > Piet in > > 2 years. > > > > I hope you read this Johhny boy and I hope you read any replies this > > may > > generate. > > > > DJ Vegh > > N74DV > > Mesa, AZ > > www.imagedv.com/aircamper > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > >




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