---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/09/03: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:27 AM - shoulder harness (Douwe Blumberg) 2. 07:56 AM - Re: shoulder harness (John Dilatush) 3. 08:48 AM - Front shoulder harness (Sayre, William G) 4. 10:25 AM - Re: shoulder harness (Ken Chambers) 5. 10:25 AM - Re: shoulder harness (Ken Chambers) 6. 10:31 AM - Re: Front shoulder harness (Ken Hannan) 7. 05:01 PM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/08/03 (ANNCARLEK@aol.com) 8. 09:15 PM - Re: shoulder harness (Rcaprd@aol.com) 9. 10:45 PM - Re: *****SPAM***** Re: shoulder harness () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:32 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Douwe Blumberg" Thanks for all the good input on shoulder harness. I wasn't thinking of running them to the top of the cabanes, I thought tying into the fittings down by the top longeron might work.

Thanks for all the good input on shoulder harness. I wasn't thinking of running them to the top of the cabanes, I thought tying into the fittings down by the top longeron might work.

________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:49 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Douwe and other Pieters, Just a last thought on the shoulder harness issue----have you thought of just lowering the seat? I lowered mine 1 1/2" and it makes all the difference in the world, shoulder harness OK, room for padding your butt if needed, less propwash, and you don't look like you are sitting on the plane rather than in the plane. The only drawback is less foward visibility, but you get used to this quickly. Think about it. John Dilatush, NX114D Salida, Colorado +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Douwe Blumberg" > > > Thanks for all the good input on shoulder harness. I wasn't thinking of > running them to the top of the cabanes, I thought tying into the > fittings down by the top longeron might work. > > > > > > >

Thanks for all the good input on > shoulder > harness. I wasn't thinking of running them to the top of the > cabanes, I > thought tying into the fittings down by the top longeron might > work. >

> > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Front shoulder harness From: "Sayre, William G" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sayre, William G" Gene Rambo wrote: "I'm not so sure that tieing the front harness to the cabanes is such a no-brainer. In a crash, the wing is almost certainly to take a hit. If either wingtip hits something and shoves the wing aft, and if the front shoulder harness is attached to the top of the cabanes, you are going to strain the front passenger through the belt. I think keeping the belts tied to the fuselage (not that I know HOW to do that) is the proper thing to do." And Chuck G. wrote: "As for the passenger, Gene makes a good point about the top of the cabane struts, but I don't see any other way to terminate them, and maintain the correct angle." I'll explain the dumbest way to hook up the front shoulder harness. As high up as possible on the front seat back, cut two slots spread appropriately for the straps to come through. Unless you carry a tall person up front routinely, this should be close to above many peoples' shoulders. On the backside of that plywood panel, glue two vertical supports down to structure. Attach cables that run at an angle over to each side and follow structure down to the lap belt attach point of the rear seat. When running down the structure, the cable is attached to keep it from getting in the pilots way but in an accident, this would act as a zip-cord and pull straight. Check both attached and unattached to see how much it adds to the slack and how it routes behind the instrument panel. You'll be surprised how little length is gained. Probably the biggest challenge is routing through all the gryo-instruments and radio stack behind the instrument panel. I know this is the dumbest way to hook up the front shoulder harness, because I've routed mine that way and people have commented on how simple and effective it looks. I refuse to test it however, so copy the idea at your own risk. I've seen one installation were there's simply a cable stretched between the cabanes and the cable and thus the shoulder harness could easily be removed when not carrying a passenger which would really be nice. I almost went this route but had the same concerns that both Gene and Chuck mentioned. The important thing (IMHO) is to provide the protection. The key is that the attach point can be anywhere; it's the fulcrum (for lack of better term) that's important in the design. That's why automobile seatbelts have a loop on the door jam or headrest for the shoulder harness to pass through even though they may attach lower than your shoulders. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I probably should have sent a picture. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness From: "Ken Chambers" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Chambers" The Brits have another way of doing the passenger shoulder harness, but it's not simple. It involves a welded steal assembly and reinforcements. One of the UK Aircamper members was kind enough to send a diagram, but I misplaced it a couple of moves ago. Let me know if you'd like to see it and I'll try again to find it, copy it, and send it to you. Or perhaps if any of our English friends are reading they might send something to the list download page? I thought I would hook my passenger belts to the cabanes, but that's an interesting point about the wings wrenching around in a crash. Ken in Austin, sitting on finished seats and making engine noises with my little boy.

The Brits have another way of doing the passenger shoulder harness, but it’s not simple. It involves a welded steal assembly and reinforcements.

One of the UK Aircamper members was kind enough to send a diagram, but I misplaced it a couple of moves ago. Let me know if you’d like to see it and I’ll try again to find it, copy it, and send it to you. Or perhaps if any of our English friends are reading they might send something to the list download page?

I thought I would hook my passenger belts to the cabanes, but that’s an interesting point about the wings wrenching around in a crash.

Ken in Austin, sitting on finished seats and making engine noises with my little boy.

=00 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness From: "Ken Chambers" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Chambers" Here's a link with a small diagram and more information on the PFA-approved seat belt harness: http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~csellen/May%202001.htm

Here’s a link with a small diagram and more information on the PFA-approved seat belt harness:

http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~csellen/May%202001.htm

=00 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:02 AM PST US From: "Ken Hannan" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Front shoulder harness --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Hannan" Do you have pictures of the seat belts? Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sayre, William G" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Front shoulder harness > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sayre, William G" > > Gene Rambo wrote: > "I'm not so sure that tieing the front harness to the cabanes is such a > no-brainer. In a crash, the wing is almost certainly to take a hit. If either wingtip hits something and shoves the wing aft, and if the front shoulder harness is attached to the top of the cabanes, you are going to strain the front passenger through the belt. I think keeping the belts tied to the fuselage (not that I know HOW to do that) is the proper thing to do." > > And Chuck G. wrote: > "As for the passenger, Gene makes a good point about the top of the cabane struts, but I don't see any other way to terminate them, and maintain the correct angle." > > > I'll explain the dumbest way to hook up the front shoulder harness. As high up as possible on the front seat back, cut two slots spread appropriately for the straps to come through. Unless you carry a tall person up front routinely, this should be close to above many peoples' shoulders. On the backside of that plywood panel, glue two vertical supports down to structure. Attach cables that run at an angle over to each side and follow structure down to the lap belt attach point of the rear seat. When running down the structure, the cable is attached to keep it from getting in the pilots way but in an accident, this would act as a zip-cord and pull straight. Check both attached and unattached to see how much it adds to the slack and how it routes behind the instrument panel. You'll be surprised how little length is gained. Probably the biggest challenge is routing through all the gryo-instruments and radio stack behind the instrument panel. > > I know this is the dumbest way to hook up the front shoulder harness, because I've routed mine that way and people have commented on how simple and effective it looks. I refuse to test it however, so copy the idea at your own risk. > > I've seen one installation were there's simply a cable stretched between the cabanes and the cable and thus the shoulder harness could easily be removed when not carrying a passenger which would really be nice. I almost went this route but had the same concerns that both Gene and Chuck mentioned. > > The important thing (IMHO) is to provide the protection. The key is that the attach point can be anywhere; it's the fulcrum (for lack of better term) that's important in the design. That's why automobile seatbelts have a loop on the door jam or headrest for the shoulder harness to pass through even though they may attach lower than your shoulders. > > They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I probably should have sent a picture. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:08 PM PST US From: ANNCARLEK@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/08/03 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ANNCARLEK@aol.com << --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gene Rambo" >> Gene - Thanks a lot for that great observation about putting the belt on the cabanes. I will certainly take it to heart, and find another way of mounting my belts for the front. I already have the rear belt going to the tail section. Carl L @ Compton Airport ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:13 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 10/9/03 12:26:47 PM Central Daylight Time, kchambers@winternals.com writes: << Or perhaps if any of our English friends are reading they might send something to the list download page? >> I used the link that Ken sent, but the diagram is not very ledgible. William, a picture from you would also be very helpful. I am very interested in the Brit's method. I'm to the point of adding this harness, so as to give others the 'Pietenpol Experience'. Chuck Gantzer tuesday evening, closed traffic, dozen landings, two on hard surface narrow runway - lovin' it !!! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:14 PM PST US From: "" Subject: Re: *****SPAM***** Re: Pietenpol-List: shoulder harness --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "" I have a copy of the British seat belt and harness installation method. If anyone wants me to scan it and send them a copy just let me know. It's about 6 pages long I think. I cant do it until tomorrow (Friday) night though. Chris Sacramento, Ca. Quoting Ken Chambers : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ken Chambers" > > > > The Brits have another way of doing the passenger shoulder harness, but > it's not simple. It involves a welded steal assembly and reinforcements. > > > One of the UK Aircamper members was kind enough to send a diagram, but I > misplaced it a couple of moves ago. Let me know if you'd like to see it > and I'll try again to find it, copy it, and send it to you. Or perhaps > if any of our English friends are reading they might send something to > the list download page? > > I thought I would hook my passenger belts to the cabanes, but that's an > interesting point about the wings wrenching around in a crash. > > Ken in Austin, sitting on finished seats and making engine noises with > my little boy. > > > xmlns:w"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" > xmlns:st1"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" > xmlns"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> > > > > > > > namespaceuri"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" > name"City"/> > namespaceuri"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" > name"place"/> > > > > > > style'tab-interval:.5in'> > >

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>The Brits have another way of doing the passenger > shoulder > harness, but it’s not simple. It involves a welded steal assembly > and > reinforcements.

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>One of the UK Aircamper > members > was kind enough to send a diagram, but I misplaced it a couple of moves > ago. > Let me know if you’d like to see it and I’ll try again to > find it, > copy it, and send it to you. Or perhaps if any of our English friends > are > reading they might send something to the list download page? >

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>I thought I would hook my passenger belts to the > classSpellE>cabanes, but that’s an interesting point > about the > wings wrenching around in a crash.

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>

> >

style'font-size:10.0pt; > font-family:Arial'>Ken in size2 > faceArial> style'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Austin ace> size2 faceArial> style'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, sitting on > finished seats and making engine noises with my little boy. >

> >

> > > > > =00 > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------