Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:26 AM - Re: Good Fuselage?? (Clif Dawson)
2. 02:52 AM - Re: Good Fuselage?? (Jack Phillips)
3. 06:03 AM - Good Fuselage?? (Sayre, William G)
4. 06:24 AM - Sun'n'Fun Forums (Doc Mosher)
5. 06:36 AM - doing it right (Michael D Cuy)
6. 06:59 AM - Re: Good Fuselage?? (At7000ft@aol.com)
7. 07:05 AM - Re: Sun'n'Fun Forums (Isablcorky@aol.com)
8. 07:35 AM - Re: Good Fuselage?? (Gadd, Skip)
9. 07:39 AM - Re: Good Fuselage?? (Ed Grentzer)
10. 08:17 AM - Re: Sun'n'Fun Forums (John Dilatush)
11. 07:52 PM - Pietenpol item eBay Item #2203296111 (Jim Markle)
12. 07:55 PM - Re: wooden struts (Ted Brousseau)
13. 07:55 PM - Re: one car garage (Ted Brousseau)
14. 07:55 PM - Re: EAA's "Experimenter" magazine (Ted Brousseau)
15. 10:32 PM - Re: doing it right (Fred Weaver)
16. 10:37 PM - Re: Piet accidents (Fred Weaver)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Good Fuselage?? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
Welcome to the list Eric.
Good decision. Anything else gets realy messy and the
basic fuselage structure is quite simple and easy except
maybe for the effort in ensuring the thing is straight and
square. Also my understanding was that Rewey used
1" X 3/4", not 3/4" square. Is that right?
Clif
> Lastly, this is one of those big "lifetime" projects that I really want to
> feel good about and have confidence in. I would hate to go through the
> whole building process and be afraid to fly it. As soon as I started
> describing to my wife how I might be able to salvage it with all these
extra
> pieces glued in here and there, she reminded me that I've been down this
> road before with other projects and I always end up saying "I wish I had
> just done it the right way from the beginning".
>
> But still, even with all that said... there's a completed fuselage in my
> garage... and man it bugs me not to use it. I guess I'd better get busy
and
> build the next one so I can quit whining about it.
>
> Again, thanks for the help guys.
>
> Eric
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Eric I agree with Gene Hubbard and Jim Ash on this fuselage. A couple of
points that haven't been made (or I missed reading them) is that unlike most
truss fuselages, the Piet has no interbay diagonal bracing - there are no
diagonals running in the plane parallel to the firewall, which resist
torsion in the fuselage. On mine I added small corner blocks at all the
vertical and horizontal members to add a little bit of torsional stiffness ,
but most of the torsional rigidity of the fuselage actually comes from the
torsional stiffness of the longerons themselves. Using such thin longerons
make make the fuselage very springy in torsion, which might produce some
unpleasant effects rolling into and out of turns, or in turbulance.
One other point that I don't think has been mentioned is that building the
fuselage is one of the more rewarding parts of building a Pietenpol, and is
not difficult.
Good luck with your decision.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP - getting the last finishing tapes on the fuselage this weekend,
then heading for the paint booth.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Williams
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage??
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Eric Williams" <ewilliams805@msn.com>
I want to say that I really appreciate all the opinions and suggestions you
guys have given on this topic. Honestly there have been some really good,
thoughtful ideas here. I think I'm going to print them all out and make
them a permanent part of my official builders log. After considering what
you all have said, and listening to my own gut feelings, I think I will
probably end up building a new fuselage. I think laminating strips to the
longerons to bring up the dimension would work if it could be done in one
long continuous piece. The problem there is that many of the gussets and
cross braces would be in the way and would have to be removed to allow for
one nice long strip to be added. At that point we're into disassembling
this fuse and I see that getting messy.
Also, this one is the short version and was built following the original
Flying and Glider manual plans which gives it some different dimensions and
curvatures. I would prefer to build the long version and for it to follow
exactly the more up to date plans so I'm not trying to mix two sets of
dimensions together at some point.
Lastly, this is one of those big "lifetime" projects that I really want to
feel good about and have confidence in. I would hate to go through the
whole building process and be afraid to fly it. As soon as I started
describing to my wife how I might be able to salvage it with all these extra
pieces glued in here and there, she reminded me that I've been down this
road before with other projects and I always end up saying "I wish I had
just done it the right way from the beginning".
But still, even with all that said... there's a completed fuselage in my
garage... and man it bugs me not to use it. I guess I'd better get busy and
build the next one so I can quit whining about it.
Again, thanks for the help guys.
Eric
MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search...
http://shopping.msn.com
Message 3
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre@boeing.com>
Eric Williams wrote;
"and man it bugs me not to use it."
Keep in mind that many items may be salvageable like seats, turtle-deck, panels
and others. Also, if it is to be destroyed, some members could be cut out, reshaped
if necessary and added to your ship, saving you the price of new pieces
(keeping in mind the material differences).
Although I personally feel 3/4 square would have worked, I admire you and your
wife's decision.
"I wish I had just done it the right way from the beginning". So True!
With an attitude like that, I think you are well prepared to create, fly and most
of all -enjoy- one of the truly great experiences in life. I look forward
to hearing your comments and following your progress but remember, it's just my
opinion and worth just what you paid for it. Hmmm. Maybe less.
Bill
Message 4
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Subject: | Sun'n'Fun Forums |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net>
I have received a request letter for time slots for Pietenpol Forums from
Bob Curtis, the Sun'n'Fun Forums coordinator. The 2004 Sun'n'Fun will run
from Tuesday April 13 thru Monday April 19.
At Sun'n'Fun in Florida in April and at AirVenture in Oshkosh in July, the
Piet people always seem to pretty much find each other by checking in at
the Woodworking area - thanks, guys! Probably our Matronics exchange has a
lot to do with this. Thanks, Matt!
We also seem to meet each other at one or both of the Piet
Forums. Experience shows that having two Piet Forums during the week seems
to work very well. In the past we have often had one person present the
Forum. When we had a problem to have a person present it, several times we
simply announced the Forum time and place, and had four or five people each
present 10 or 15 minutes. This seemed to work very well, and met with good
audience reaction. I have talked with Bill Rewey in the last week or
so. He suggested that the multi-presenter style seems to be good, and that
he would be happy to be one of the presenters.
In order to get two good times for Piet Forums, I have told the Sun'n'Fun
coordinator, Bob Curtis, that we request Wednesday April 14th at 10:00 am
and Saturday April 17th, also at 10:00 am. I realize that these are both
prime time slots, but if we get our requests in early, we may get what we
ask for. I figured that Tuesday and Saturday would allow the folks that
come early to participate and also serve the weekenders. Let me know if
you want to change - or want to have only one Forum.
The reason for quickly replying to SNF is to get two good time slots for
Forums. We can always change. I will be happy to be a central point to
clear information in the early stages.
Right now we need an individual to be the Cordinator for Tuesday and
another Cordinator for Saturday. The SnF people need to have a name to
print on the programs.
Now let's get some commitments from you presenters. No big burden for any
one person. Just 10 or 15 minutes of sharing some info with each
other. Bring touchable items, bring clear photos, bring paper
handouts. Bill Rewey, for example, usually has a couple of sheets of
Frequently Asked Questions, complete with answers, which people can take home.
Doc Mosher
Oshkosh USA
Message 5
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Eric-- there were so many little things that I had to re-do or re-make
during the construction of my Piet because of what you too feel as tho you
need to do it right instead of like 'other projects'. I made up my mind
that if I didn't like the way a part turned out or I had a bad gut feeling
about it's integrity, I'd re-do it til I got it right. You'll feel better
about everything when flying your plane if you build with that kind of
attitude. Not like the dreaded Fisherman who was on this list for a while
who thought you could build a safe Piet w/ everything from Home
Depot. Well, you could I guess but then who would want to go with you
for a ride ? My approach applied toward cosmetic things too because I
didn't want to look at those bumps under the fabric (ie--bolt heads, wood
that should have been sanded smooth......) or sloppy glue joints later
and say "ugh, I hate when I look at that". On the other hand, part of me
loves the look of those hard-flown, greasy & rough-around-the-edges planes
that they fly at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York. Go figure.
You can always use your old fuselage as a test bed for instrument layouts,
seat height/slant choices, cable routing, etc. The longer fuselage will
give you 2" more leg room in both the front and rear cockpits should you
build the 1966 version. At 44 my near vision wishes my instrument panel
was a bit further from my face than it is now in the short or 1933 version
fuselage. (but drug store reading glasses are still pretty
reasonable:) Glad you are on the list. Stay with it and don't give
up. There is nothing sweeter than to see guys like Corky, Walt E. , Chuck
Gantzer, and soon Jack Phillips showing up at pancake breakfast fly-in's
and shows with their Piets. "yep....I built it..." Cool !
Mike C. with winds out of the south gusting to 45-55 mph. Let's fly !!!!!
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Good Fuselage?? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
Jack, the fuselage plans call for spruce wedges at the corners of the
fuselage vertical and diagonal struts. You did more than this?
Rick Holland
On mine I added small corner blocks at all the
vertical and horizontal members to add a little bit of torsional stiffness ,
but most of the torsional rigidity of the fuselage actually comes from the
torsional stiffness of the longerons themselves.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Sun'n'Fun Forums |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Doc,
I have an FAQ. When are you people at EAA planning to cease being the nice
guys, afraid to hurt FAA's feelings, and begin kicking some beaurocratic ___es
and get this Sport Pilot issue completed. Who was the genius who decided to
hold up on the Pilot issue until the problems of the Sport Plane were resolved.
TMALSS, I'm ready, I think, to fill the tank of 41CC, lay it on 110 degrees,
and head for the citrus land in April. Hell, I might even get there.
Soooooooooooooo please get some action on FAA so old Corky can have a little
fun before it's too late.
Thanks
Corky in La looking for a little fun
Message 8
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" <Skip.Gadd@ssa.gov>
Jack,
If what you are talking about is the same as what I call "match boxing"? I
think the pilots seat back and the firewall help stop this action.
Skip,
In Atlanta where Harry Hooper and I just trued my spoke wheels and mounted
the tires.
The spokes were a lot easier than I thought, the tires a lot harder.
> the Piet has no interbay diagonal bracing - there are no diagonals running
in the plane
>parallel to the firewall, which resist
>torsion in the fuselage.
>Jack Phillips
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Good Fuselage?? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed Grentzer" <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
I always thought that the tortional stiffness of the Piet fuselage came
from the diagonal struts that run between the longerons and the vertical
struts on all four sides of the fuselage and from the plywood "box". In
order for the fuselage to twist the diagonals would have to stretch or
compress which just is not going to happen. All components should be in
tension or compression. I also thought the spruce wedges were used at the
struts and diagonals only at the ash crossmembers. But there I go thinking
again. I'd say 3/4" fir would probably be ok but I don't think Id bet my
Butt on it. Jack's right....building the fuselage is a awesome experience.
Good luck with your Piet and welcome. Ed G.
>From: At7000ft@aol.com
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Good Fuselage??
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:59:30 EST
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
>
>Jack, the fuselage plans call for spruce wedges at the corners of the
>fuselage vertical and diagonal struts. You did more than this?
>
>Rick Holland
>On mine I added small corner blocks at all the
>vertical and horizontal members to add a little bit of torsional stiffness
>,
>but most of the torsional rigidity of the fuselage actually comes from the
>torsional stiffness of the longerons themselves.
>
>
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Sun'n'Fun Forums |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sun'n'Fun Forums
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
===================================
Go for it Corky! To heck with the bureaucrats, by the way, what is TMALSS?
John
===================================
>
> Doc,
>
> I have an FAQ. When are you people at EAA planning to cease being the nice
> guys, afraid to hurt FAA's feelings, and begin kicking some beaurocratic
___es
> and get this Sport Pilot issue completed. Who was the genius who decided
to
> hold up on the Pilot issue until the problems of the Sport Plane were
resolved.
> TMALSS, I'm ready, I think, to fill the tank of 41CC, lay it on 110
degrees,
> and head for the citrus land in April. Hell, I might even get there.
> Soooooooooooooo please get some action on FAA so old Corky can have a
little
> fun before it's too late.
> Thanks
>
> Corky in La looking for a little fun
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Pietenpol item eBay Item #2203296111 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
Interesting item on eBay.......
> To view the item, go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2203296111
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: wooden struts |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net>
Douwe,
I am going all wood. I will let you know if it doesn't work. Still a
couple of months away from getting off the ground.
Ted Brousseau
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wooden struts
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Douwe Blumberg"
<douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>
> I bought my plane as a project. The builder was a skillfull woodworker
who made everything he could from wood...including the lift/cabane and jury
struts. I saw the article in the backissues he followed. He sandwhiched a
quarter inch piece of marine plywood between two pieces of spruce and bolted
long strap type fittings to the end... like a WWI plane. I'm sure they're a
bit heavier. I've seen few shots in the backissues showing guys using these,
and I can't figure out why they wouldn't be safe, but thought I'd ask
everybody's opinion since... everybody's got one!
>
> Second question. If I do decide to go with metal struts, what dimensions
are people using and where is the best place to get the stock?
>
> Douwe
> douweblumberg@earthlink.net
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: one car garage |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net>
Come on Mike, tell him the rest of the story. About how you weren't married
and the fuselage was in the dining room and the tail feathers stuck through
into the living room.
I am married and so far everything is in a one car garage. I hang the wings
from the rafters to work on the fuselage. That will all come to an end when
the wings go on permanently.
Ted
In Naples, FL with the AC still on.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: one car garage
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> Mike Whaley--- welcome to the list ! Both Steve Eldrege and myself
built
> our planes and only had one car garages at the time. My entire Piet
> stored nicely in that one car garage with the wings and tail sections
> off. (oh...that would be a three pce wing not the 29 foot long one piece
> wing)
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: EAA's "Experimenter" magazine |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" <nfn00979@naples.net>
Doc,
Any chance of getting a picture of that main wheel dolly? Sounds
interesting.
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Mosher" <docshop@tds.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: EAA's "Experimenter" magazine
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net>
> > By the way, the tailwheel dolly (works great on a tailskid, too) shown
by
> Bob Whittier's photo does happen to be a wood disk. What we use here is
> more mundane. We use a 2x6 plank maybe 8 inches long with three casters
> under it, and build a little receptacle box on top to accept the tailwheel
> or skid. We also have such dollys for the main wheels, so we can move the
> airplanes sideways.
> >
> Doc Mosher
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: doing it right |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Mike.... You crack me up! Love the line about the winds.....
Weav
On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 06:36 AM, Michael D Cuy wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> Eric-- there were so many little things that I had to re-do or re-make
> during the construction of my Piet because of what you too feel as tho
> you
> need to do it right instead of like 'other projects'. I made up my
> mind
> that if I didn't like the way a part turned out or I had a bad gut
> feeling
> about it's integrity, I'd re-do it til I got it right. You'll feel
> better
> about everything when flying your plane if you build with that kind of
> attitude. Not like the dreaded Fisherman who was on this list for a
> while
> who thought you could build a safe Piet w/ everything from Home
> Depot. Well, you could I guess but then who would want to go with
> you
> for a ride ? My approach applied toward cosmetic things too because I
> didn't want to look at those bumps under the fabric (ie--bolt heads,
> wood
> that should have been sanded smooth......) or sloppy glue joints
> later
> and say "ugh, I hate when I look at that". On the other hand, part
> of me
> loves the look of those hard-flown, greasy & rough-around-the-edges
> planes
> that they fly at the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in New York. Go figure.
>
> You can always use your old fuselage as a test bed for instrument
> layouts,
> seat height/slant choices, cable routing, etc. The longer fuselage
> will
> give you 2" more leg room in both the front and rear cockpits should
> you
> build the 1966 version. At 44 my near vision wishes my instrument
> panel
> was a bit further from my face than it is now in the short or 1933
> version
> fuselage. (but drug store reading glasses are still pretty
> reasonable:) Glad you are on the list. Stay with it and don't give
> up. There is nothing sweeter than to see guys like Corky, Walt E. ,
> Chuck
> Gantzer, and soon Jack Phillips showing up at pancake breakfast
> fly-in's
> and shows with their Piets. "yep....I built it..." Cool !
>
> Mike C. with winds out of the south gusting to 45-55 mph. Let's fly
> !!!!!
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Piet accidents |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Thanks for the effort to present the info....
Some of us appreciate the time it takes....
Weav
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 08:52 PM, Sanders, Andrew P wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sanders, Andrew P"
> <andrew.p.sanders@boeing.com>
>
> Starting with the list posted here a few days ago, I did some
> additional research in the NTSB & FAA databases. I've found 39
> Pietenpol Aircamper & Scout, or Grega accidents listed since 1966.
>
> The 39 can be divided into these categories:
>
> Loss of control/impact: 25, 64%
> Failure Engine: 7, 18%
> Failure Airframe: 5
> Fuel: 2
>
> Loss of control/impact: 25, 64%
> Stall/Spin: 13, 33%
> Maneuvering: 6, 15%
> Takeoff: 4, 10%
> Landing: 3, 8%
>
> Impact: 8, 20%
> Maneuvering: 3, 8%
> Landing 4, 10%
> Takeoff: 1, 3%
>
> Loss of control: 5, 13%
> Takeoff: 2, 5%
> Landing: 2, 5%
> Other: 1, 3% Pilot &
> Copilot each thought the other had the controls.
>
> Failure Engine: 7, 18%
> Corvair: 4, 10% Carb ice, Oil
> thermostat valve stuck, cylinder failure, (forgot the last one).
> Ford: 2, 5%
> Model "A": 1, 3% Sheared
> prop bolts and lost prop.
> Model "B": 1, 3% Mag
> failure on single mag engine.
>
> Continental: 1, 3% Stuck carb
> needle.
>
> Airframe Failure: 4, 10% Elevator control rod
> failed, elevator bellcrank support tube failed, improper turnbuckle
> barrel, bad landing gear weld.
>
> Fuel: 2, 5%
> Exhaustion: 1, 3%
> Water: 1, 3%
>
>
> Not all the reports listed the type of engine. From the 23 that were
> listed:
>
> Continental: 11, 48%
> A/C-65: 6, 26%
> -75: 1, 4%
> -80: 1, 4%
> -85: 1, 4%
> Other: 1, 4%
>
> GM: 6, 26%
> Corvair: 4, 17%
> Other: 2, 9%
>
> Ford: 4, 17%
> Model "A": 2, 8%
> Model "B": 1, 4%
> Other: 1, 4%
>
> Franklin: 1, 4%
>
> Lycoming: 1, 4%
>
> Please not that in some cases I had to do some interpretation and make
> a judgment call it there were more than a single causation listed.
>
> The percentages are rounded and may not add up to 100%
>
> Since the engine was not listed in all cases and wasn't necessarily a
> factor in the accidents when listed, I'm not sure that the inclusion
> of their numbers adds anything to the accident analysis, but is an
> interesting point of trivia.
>
> Keep the speed up, keep it in fuel, be proficient. That would have
> eliminated 3/4 of the accidents.
>
> Andrew
> Woodinville, Wa.
> Piet wannabe
>
> Andrew Sanders
> Boeing 7E7
> LSSPD Project Manager
>
>
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