Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:29 AM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Jim Ash)
2. 06:10 AM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Christian Bobka)
3. 06:23 AM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Christian Bobka)
4. 06:50 AM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (DJ Vegh)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Isablcorky@aol.com)
6. 09:08 AM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Christian Bobka)
7. 03:45 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Kevin Holcomb)
8. 04:30 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Christian Bobka)
9. 04:50 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Isablcorky@aol.com)
10. 04:53 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Isablcorky@aol.com)
11. 05:13 PM - Re:Night flight in a Piet (Fred Weaver)
12. 05:20 PM - Re: Re:Night flight in a Piet (Isablcorky@aol.com)
13. 05:41 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Richard Navratil)
14. 08:16 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (dave rowe)
15. 09:01 PM - Re: Nav lghts on a Piet (Fred Weaver)
16. 10:27 PM - Rnager upright conversion (Christian Bobka)
17. 10:32 PM - Fw: Ranger upright conversion (Christian Bobka)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Does the FAA care about the specific colors of nav lights? LED's have come
a long way in the last 20 years, but I'm curious if they come in the colors
we'd need or if we could fake it with an 'ornagish' red, or a 'bluish' green.
JIm Ash
At 11/22/2003 01:38 AM -0500, you wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 11/21/03 9:40:29 PM Central Standard Time,
>Isablcorky@aol.com writes:
>
><< How much 12 v drain is there for the necessary nav
> lights? >>
>
>Corky,
>You should consider Super Bright LED's, for your nav lights. They use a lot
>less current, and almost last forever. I think several of them would have to
>be used together in a small group, each of them pointing in a different
>direction, because they are focal in their light emmition. You would
>probably have
>to make them up yourself. Today they are being used in flashlights,
>taillights on cars, and traffic lights. I'm planning on using them on my
>Tailwind, for
>the nav lights. Here are a couple of web sites that have some info about
>them: http://ledtaillights.com/
>http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm
>
>Chuck G.
>Three flights this week !!
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
Kevin and corky,
You are right about the 91.507 not applying. I should have realized it was
in the subpart dealing with the large aircraft.
The reference to "civil twilight" went out with the rewrite of the regs a
few years back. It now just says "sunrise to sunset" unless you are in
alaska, where another definition applies
Nav lights and strobe or RB, that's how I see it. Or is the RB option out
the window now? The Saabs I flew has an RB fo0r the A models and strobes on
the B model. The A models were built in the late eighties and the B models
were made in the nineties.
chris
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nav lghts on a Piet
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kevin Holcomb"
<ksholcomb@mindspring.com>
>
> Here is my understanding of the rules, hopefully it will be of some help
to
> you,
>
> 91.507 (or for that matter any of the rules within subpart F of part 91)
> does not apply unless you are a large or turbine powered multi-engine
> airplane.
>
> As for lights, here is how I understand the rules for part 91 operations
in
> an airplane that is not large or turbine powered:
>
> If you have strobe lights you must use them - Always, unless they are
> interefering with the safe conduct of flight (for example reflecting off
> clouds or the prop and distracting you.) Ref 91.209(b)
>
> If you wish to fly after sunset but before sunrise you must have
navigation
> lights (the green and red wing tip lights.) (ref 91.209)
>
> If you wish to fly after the end of evening civil twilight but before the
> begining of mourning civil twilight you must have anti-collision lights
> (ref 91.205c). This civil twilight stuff is a time as recorded in the Air
> Almanac (an expensive book.) An unofficial source for the civil twilight
> information is on airnav.com, which lists civil twilight for that day when
> you look up an airport. It is about the time that the city starts to turn
> the street lights on and you start noticing all the house lights. This
> differs from nautical twilight which is defined as the time when you can
no
> longer distinguish the horizon. Civil twilight buys you about an extra 20
> minutes here in Florida.
>
> For people that have old airplanes to operate at night (after the end of
> civil twilight) they must have an approved lighting system that meets the
> standards on a specified date in the early 1970's, which if you dig
through
> the references breaks down to you must have a strobe or rotating beacon.
> New airplanes are not allowed to use this option and must have the
strobes.
> For instance a Stinson that was originally equipped for night flight when
> it was certified cannot legally be used at night today unless it has a
> beacon or strobes.
>
> I hope this helps, to make sense of it keep in mind that one reg refers to
> sunset/sunrise, the other refers to 'night' which means end of civil
> twilight to start of civil twilight.
>
> Kevin
> www.airminded.net
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
Jim,
I would think that an experimental could have whatever the builder wants in
this regard but the DAR may have other ideas in the this area since one
youare flying around, other airplanes will not know you as an experimental
but merely as another aircraft airborne at night.
Reference the following for color specifications:
23.1397 Color specifications.
Each position light color must have the applicable International Commission
on Illumination chromaticity coordinates as follows:
(a) Aviation red --
y is not greater than 0.335; and
z is not greater than 0.002.
(b) Aviation green --
x is not greater than 0.4400.320y;
x is not greater than y0.170; and
y is not less than 0.3900.170x.
(c) Aviation white --
x is not less than 0.300 and not greater than 0.540;
y is not less than x0.040 or y00.010, whichever is the smaller; and
y is not greater than x+0.020 nor 0.6360.400x;
Where y0 is the y coordinate of the Planckian radiator for the value of x
considered.
[Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, amended by Amdt. 23-11, 36 FR
12971, July 10, 1971]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nav lghts on a Piet
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> Does the FAA care about the specific colors of nav lights? LED's have come
> a long way in the last 20 years, but I'm curious if they come in the
colors
> we'd need or if we could fake it with an 'ornagish' red, or a 'bluish'
green.
>
> JIm Ash
>
>
> At 11/22/2003 01:38 AM -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
> >
> >In a message dated 11/21/03 9:40:29 PM Central Standard Time,
> >Isablcorky@aol.com writes:
> >
> ><< How much 12 v drain is there for the necessary nav
> > lights? >>
> >
> >Corky,
> >You should consider Super Bright LED's, for your nav lights. They use a
lot
> >less current, and almost last forever. I think several of them would
have to
> >be used together in a small group, each of them pointing in a different
> >direction, because they are focal in their light emmition. You would
> >probably have
> >to make them up yourself. Today they are being used in flashlights,
> >taillights on cars, and traffic lights. I'm planning on using them on my
> >Tailwind, for
> >the nav lights. Here are a couple of web sites that have some info about
> >them: http://ledtaillights.com/
> >http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm
> >
> >Chuck G.
> >Three flights this week !!
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
Jim, I see no reason why LED's could not be used. There are red and green
LED's available in the 20,000 MCD brightness value. They are BRIGHT! So
bright you can damage your eyes by looking directly at them. If you grouped
5 or 6 of them together each facing a slightly different angle you could
make nav lights from them that shine the proper spread angle. They are very
low current drain also. I'm not sure why no aircraft light manufacturers
have jumped on this bandwagon. LED's have come a very long way in the last
5 years.
They make these for cars which are pretty cool....
http://www.xkms.org/JC-Whitney-44/Red-Type-1157-LED-Bulbs.htm
direct replacements for incandescent.
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nav lghts on a Piet
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> Does the FAA care about the specific colors of nav lights? LED's have come
> a long way in the last 20 years, but I'm curious if they come in the
colors
> we'd need or if we could fake it with an 'ornagish' red, or a 'bluish'
green.
>
> JIm Ash
>
>
> At 11/22/2003 01:38 AM -0500, you wrote:
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
> >
> >In a message dated 11/21/03 9:40:29 PM Central Standard Time,
> >Isablcorky@aol.com writes:
> >
> ><< How much 12 v drain is there for the necessary nav
> > lights? >>
> >
> >Corky,
> >You should consider Super Bright LED's, for your nav lights. They use a
lot
> >less current, and almost last forever. I think several of them would
have to
> >be used together in a small group, each of them pointing in a different
> >direction, because they are focal in their light emmition. You would
> >probably have
> >to make them up yourself. Today they are being used in flashlights,
> >taillights on cars, and traffic lights. I'm planning on using them on my
> >Tailwind, for
> >the nav lights. Here are a couple of web sites that have some info about
> >them: http://ledtaillights.com/
> >http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm
> >
> >Chuck G.
> >Three flights this week !!
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Chris,
After a good nights sleep and a cup of Isabelle's BLACK cajun coffee this
morning I found a copy of the "operating limitations" issued by my DAR for 41CC
and began reading. I find that that par (6) of Phase 1 says: This aircraft is
to be operated under VISUAL FLIGHT RULES (VFR), day only.
Under Phase 2, par (4) says: Unless appropriately equipped for night and/ or
instrument flight in accordance with par 91.205, this aircraft is to be
operated under VFR, day.
I interpret this to mean that as long as I provide NX311CC (Repiet) with
appropriate equipment for night flying according to the latest regulations a
qualified pilot would be allowed to perform VFR night flights.
Thanks again for you input on this subject. I can't see how I could possibly
perform my proposed "Circum Gulf-Carrib goodwill flight" without night flight
capabilities.
Corky in La
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
go for it corky
Chris
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nav lghts on a Piet
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
>
> Chris,
>
> After a good nights sleep and a cup of Isabelle's BLACK cajun coffee this
> morning I found a copy of the "operating limitations" issued by my DAR for
41CC
> and began reading. I find that that par (6) of Phase 1 says: This aircraft
is
> to be operated under VISUAL FLIGHT RULES (VFR), day only.
>
> Under Phase 2, par (4) says: Unless appropriately equipped for night and/
or
> instrument flight in accordance with par 91.205, this aircraft is to be
> operated under VFR, day.
>
> I interpret this to mean that as long as I provide NX311CC (Repiet) with
> appropriate equipment for night flying according to the latest regulations
a
> qualified pilot would be allowed to perform VFR night flights.
>
> Thanks again for you input on this subject. I can't see how I could
possibly
> perform my proposed "Circum Gulf-Carrib goodwill flight" without night
flight
> capabilities.
>
> Corky in La
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb@mindspring.com>
Unfortunatly civil twilight is still with us. Per FAR 1.1 (as printed in
my 2003 FAR/AIM) "Night means the time between the end of evening civil
twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the
American Air Almanac, conveted to local time." This is invoked by FAR
91.205 (c) Visual flight rules (night.) Which starts out with 'For VFR
flight at night.....'.
I really wish this would go away, sundown to sunset would be so much easier
than having to teach my students one definition for counting time as night
for proficiency, another for being equipped to fly at night, and yet
another for turning the navigation lights on. Student pilots have enough
to master without this little bit of trivia to deal with.
As for rotating beacons, my understanding is they are an acceptable
substitute for strobes on old airplanes (aircraft for which a type
certificate was applied for or obtained prior to August 11,1971.) However
they are not an acceptable for meeting the night requirements on a new
airplane. Thus, you are of course more than welcome to put a rotating
beacon on an exerimental, it will probably increase safety somewhat over
having nothing. However that beacon will not allow you to operate legally
at night.
Kevin
www.airminded.net
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@compuserve.com>
Ah kevin. The light reg in 91 says "sunrise to sunset". It never mentions
the word "night". Granted night is defined in Part 1 but it applies solely
to 91.205. Part 91.205 is titled "Powered civil aircraft with standard
category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment
requirements" and the question was about an experimetnal airworthiness
certificate, not a standard category airworthiness certificate so we can
ignore part 91.205(c) and revert to the "sunrise to sunset" of 91.209.
Its good to go back and forth like this becuase this is how you learn the
darn regs!
chris
91.209 Aircraft lights.
No person may:
(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during the
period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance of 3
statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the horizon) --
(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;
(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a night
flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft --
(i) Is clearly illuminated;
(ii) Has lighted position lights; or
(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;
(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft --
(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or
(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels; or
(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system,
unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision
lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that,
because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to
turn the lights off.
[Doc. No. 27806, 61 FR 5171, Feb. 9, 1996]
61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this
section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying
passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight
crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three
landings within the preceding 90 days, and --
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the
same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the
aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and
landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.
(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this
section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR
or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the
aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.
(3) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section
may be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device that
is --
(i) Approved by the Administrator for landings; and
(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training
center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in
paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset
and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that
person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop
during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before
sunrise, and --
(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the
same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
(2) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section
may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is --
(i) Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings, if the visual
system is adjusted to represent the period described in paragraph (b)(1) of
this section; and
(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training
center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40898, July
30, 1997; Amdt. 61-106, 64 FR 23529, Apr. 30, 1999; Amdt. 61-109, 68 FR
54559, Sept. 17, 2003]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Holcomb" <ksholcomb@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nav lghts on a Piet
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kevin Holcomb"
<ksholcomb@mindspring.com>
>
> Unfortunatly civil twilight is still with us. Per FAR 1.1 (as printed in
> my 2003 FAR/AIM) "Night means the time between the end of evening civil
> twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the
> American Air Almanac, conveted to local time." This is invoked by FAR
> 91.205 (c) Visual flight rules (night.) Which starts out with 'For VFR
> flight at night.....'.
>
> I really wish this would go away, sundown to sunset would be so much
easier
> than having to teach my students one definition for counting time as night
> for proficiency, another for being equipped to fly at night, and yet
> another for turning the navigation lights on. Student pilots have enough
> to master without this little bit of trivia to deal with.
>
> As for rotating beacons, my understanding is they are an acceptable
> substitute for strobes on old airplanes (aircraft for which a type
> certificate was applied for or obtained prior to August 11,1971.) However
> they are not an acceptable for meeting the night requirements on a new
> airplane. Thus, you are of course more than welcome to put a rotating
> beacon on an exerimental, it will probably increase safety somewhat over
> having nothing. However that beacon will not allow you to operate legally
> at night.
>
> Kevin
> www.airminded.net
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Chris and Kevin,
Can I or can't I ????????????????
Corky in La wanting to fly 311CC at night in the future
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Correction of last transmission
Corky in La wanting to fly 311CC "between sunset and sunrise" sometime in the
future
Message 11
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Subject: | Re:Night flight in a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Corky..... Of course you can fly it at night. It simply has to have
the right combination of lights.
The amount of current required varies with the lights you select. The
RV guys have been talking
quite a bit about the LED lights and when I have a few minutes, I will
provide you with the websites.
LED lights use A LOT LESS amps and will provide you with the legal
light. The strobe/strobes however
use a few amps as I recall... I think you can get away with only two
strobes, one on the top and one on the
bottom. BTW, I'm not too impressed with the Aeroflash units. The only
units that have worked flawlessly
for me in the past were Whelen. Spend a little extra money and get
Whelen's when it's time. When you flip
the switch, they fire off and work.
Start running some wire.... Enjoy the opportunity to fly Experimental
at Night.
Weav
On Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 04:53 PM, Isablcorky@aol.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
>
>
> Correction of last transmission
>
>
> Corky in La wanting to fly 311CC "between sunset and sunrise" sometime
> in the
> future
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re:Night flight in a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
Thanks Fred,
All the help from you builders and experienced pilots you offer the list I
appreciate very much.
Corky in La
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
You could go the way of Alan Wise and hang Kerosene R.R. lanterns on the
wing tips and just talk to curious people about how well they work.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Isablcorky@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nav lghts on a Piet
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Isablcorky@aol.com
>
>
> Pieters,
>
> While building the fuse for Repiet I want to wire it for nav lights,
install
> switch and ammeter plus plan for the installation of a small wind driven
> generator. Would like an installation to be installed and removed easily
as night
> flying is not a regular activity.
> Edwin Johnson and I have discussed this and feel that if 311CC has the
> capability for night flight it would increase it's value to the next owner
after I'm
> gone.
> From some in the know: How much 12 v drain is there for the necessary nav
> lights?
> Is a strobe or rotating beacon required? If you know the reg numbers on
this
> I would appreciate having them.
> Would appreciate your input on this subject.
> Thanks in advance
>
> Corky in La
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
Boy and I thought the US was the land of the free. Maybe it should be
called the land of never ending rules. Here in Canada all we need is a
spotlight and a whistle. We have twice the land and 1/10th the
population, we figure hey, what are the chances of hitting one another.
I suppose you guys don't use hand-carved props held together with Moose
Glue! (True story by the way, 1930's bush flying history) I guess we
have come a long way in aviation this century, but it sure takes some of
the adventuring spirit out of things doesn't it!
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Nav lghts on a Piet |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Fred Weaver <mytyweav@earthlink.net>
Atta Way Dave!! Sort of says it all eh? Rules rules rules..... God
isn't it great?
On Saturday, November 22, 2003, at 08:18 PM, dave rowe wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
>
> Boy and I thought the US was the land of the free. Maybe it should be
> called the land of never ending rules. Here in Canada all we need is a
> spotlight and a whistle. We have twice the land and 1/10th the
> population, we figure hey, what are the chances of hitting one another.
> I suppose you guys don't use hand-carved props held together with Moose
> Glue! (True story by the way, 1930's bush flying history) I guess we
> have come a long way in aviation this century, but it sure takes some
> of
> the adventuring spirit out of things doesn't it!
>
>
> _-
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> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
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> _-
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> _-
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> >
>
>
Message 16
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"chilton" <chilton_DW1@yahoogroups.com>,
"pietenpol" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: | Rnager upright conversion |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
Has anyone ever come across any information about converting a Ranger engine into
an upright configuration?
chris bobka
Message 17
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"pietenpol" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>,
"chilton" <chilton_DW1@yahoogroups.com>, "Doc Mosher" <docshop@tds.net>
Subject: | Fw: Ranger upright conversion |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <bobka@charter.net>
Has anyone ever come across any information about converting a Ranger engine into
an upright configuration?
chris bobka
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