---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/07/04: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:03 AM - Re: Corvair engines in AL (Kip and Beth Gardner) 2. 07:00 AM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Ken Chambers) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Christian Bobka) 4. 07:42 AM - Re: Corvair engines in AL (Gadd, Skip) 5. 07:47 AM - Re: ATV Wheels (Gadd, Skip) 6. 08:36 AM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Isablcorky@aol.com) 7. 03:45 PM - Re: Corvair engines in AL (Caroll & Mara Holmstrom) 8. 05:16 PM - Re: Airfoil stuff (Fred Weaver) 9. 07:09 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Michael Conkling) 10. 07:42 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (DJ Vegh) 11. 08:10 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Kevin Holcomb) 12. 08:32 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Rcaprd@aol.com) 13. 09:37 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Fred Weaver) 14. 09:41 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Catdesign) 15. 10:11 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Catdesign) 16. 10:15 PM - Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings (Catdesign) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:14 AM PST US <28729986.1073451008871.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> <28729986.1073451008871.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair engines in AL --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Kip and Beth Gardner At 11:50 PM -0500 1/6/04, Jim Markle wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle > >Hi Kip, >Nope, it was someone else that was moving up that way. Too much snow for me! >I'll add your name to the list in case there's some way to get a core to you. >So far there are 4 of us that want 2 cores each, but I have yet to >hear back from the fellow in Alabama....so who knows.... >Hey, I'm in no hurry..... :-) >jm Jim, OK, there's someone on the list from down south who's interested in Corvairs & is moving 'Nawth' when he retires - guess I'm having a senior moment as to who. Yes, keep me in mind for a core, but I'm in no hurry either :). Hope you hear from the guy. Kip Gardner -- North Canton, OH ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings From: "Ken Chambers" Dick, I agree the Piet plans should be available as CAD files, and I think a Piet airfoil initiative similar to the one undertaken by the KR group might be a good idea too. I know, I know -- it's blasphemous to suggest changing Bernard's "FC-10" airfoil. And it's a thing of beauty, no doubt. But this plane would be safer if it could hang in the air longer without power. A lower drag airfoil would help and we might get a little better cruise, too. We had a good analysis of this airfoil some months ago (I forget who did it, but it's in the archives). We could begin by scouring the world for airfoils with similar characteristics and lower drag. There are lots of options out there. Ken, fighting the rats in my new fixer-upper house in Austin, Texas ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:32 AM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, where in austin are you fighting the rats? Chris Bobka do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Chambers To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Dick, I agree the Piet plans should be available as CAD files, and I think a Piet airfoil initiative similar to the one undertaken by the KR group might be a good idea too. I know, I know -- it's blasphemous to suggest changing Bernard's "FC-10" airfoil. And it's a thing of beauty, no doubt. But this plane would be safer if it could hang in the air longer without power. A lower drag airfoil would help and we might get a little better cruise, too. We had a good analysis of this airfoil some months ago (I forget who did it, but it's in the archives). We could begin by scouring the world for airfoils with similar characteristics and lower drag. There are lots of options out there. Ken, fighting the rats in my new fixer-upper house in Austin, Texas ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:57 AM PST US From: "Gadd, Skip" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair engines in AL --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" Kip, Its me, Atlanta to West Virginia on or about June 2 2004. Skip, 147 days. >OK, there's someone on the list from down south who's interested in >Corvairs & is moving 'Nawth' when he retires - guess I'm having a >senior moment as to who. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:28 AM PST US From: "Gadd, Skip" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ATV Wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gadd, Skip" I weighed my 21" aluminum rimmed wheel with SS spokes, turned Fortal aluminum hubs, with tires, tubes, bronze bushings, grease cups with grease, and break disks, only weighed 20 lbs, Kind of amazing, considering I have about 50 lbs of air in the tire ;) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:41 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:51 PM PST US From: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair engines in AL --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Caroll & Mara Holmstrom" I was looking for a couple of cores up here in Minnesota. Caroll in Hassan. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:23 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Airfoil stuff You know....... A great candidate would be the 23012 used on the Taylorcraft.... Good lift, great cruise speed/low drag, and good float on landing... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:37 PM PST US From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Didn't Kevin Holcomb do some stuff on the Piet airfoil using the XFOIL program -- about mid 2002 ?? Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:51 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings tests=FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS, MIME_BASE64_LATIN, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME, MIME_BASE64_TEXT dGhlIGR1ZGUgYXQgUmVwbGljcmFmdCBhLmsuYS4gRUFQUyBBdmlhdGlvbiAodGhlIGd1eXMgbmFt ZSBpcyBTdGV2ZSBzb21ldGhpbmcpIGhhZCBhbGwgdGhlIFBpZXQgYW5kIEdOLTEgbWV0YWwgcGFy dHMgaW4gQ0FEIGF0IG9uZSBwb2ludCBiZWNhdXNlIGhlIHdhcyBvZmZlcmluZyBhbGwgdGhlbSBm b3Igc2FsZS4NCg0KVGhlbiBoZSBkZWNpZGVkIHRvIHN3aW5kbGUgaGlzIGxhc3QgY3VzdG9tZXJz IGJ5IHJ1bm5pbmcgb2ZmIHdpdGggYWJvdXQgNSBvciAxMCBvcGVuIG9yZGVycy4gIE1pbmUgaW5j bHVkZWQuICBMYXN0IEkgaGVhcmQgaGUgbWFkZSBvZmYgd2l0aCBhYm91dCAkMTBLLg0KDQoNCkRK IFZlZ2gNCk43NERWDQpNZXNhLCBBWg0Kd3d3LmltYWdlZHYuY29tL2FpcmNhbXBlcg0KDQoNCg0K LQ0KDQogIC0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0gDQogIEZyb206IE1pY2hhZWwgQ29u a2xpbmcgDQogIFRvOiBwaWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIA0KICBTZW50OiBXZWRu ZXNkYXksIEphbnVhcnkgMDcsIDIwMDQgODoxMSBQTQ0KICBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUGlldGVucG9s LUxpc3Q6IEF1dG8gQ2FkIFBpZXRlbnBvbCBkcmF3aW5ncw0KDQoNCiAgRGlkbid0IEtldmluIEhv bGNvbWIgZG8gc29tZSBzdHVmZiBvbiB0aGUgUGlldCBhaXJmb2lsIHVzaW5nIHRoZSBYRk9JTCBw cm9ncmFtIC0tIGFib3V0IG1pZCAyMDAyID8/DQoNCiAgTWlrZSBDLg0KICBQcmV0dHkgUHJhaXJp ZSwgS1MNCiAgICAtLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KICAgIEZyb206IElzYWJs Y29ya3lAYW9sLmNvbSANCiAgICBUbzogcGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbSANCiAg ICBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEphbnVhcnkgMDcsIDIwMDQgMTA6MzYgQU0NCiAgICBTdWJqZWN0 OiBSZTogUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3Q6IEF1dG8gQ2FkIFBpZXRlbnBvbCBkcmF3aW5ncw0KDQoNCiAg ICBLZW4sDQoNCiAgICBQbGVhc2Uga2VlcCB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb24gYWlyZm9pbCBnb2lu Zy4gSSBmZWVsIHRoZSBQaWV0J3MgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UgY291bGQgYmUgaW1wcm92ZWQsIGVzcGVj aWFsbHkgbGFuZGluZy4gSSBoYXZlIGZsb3duIG1hbnkgdHlwZXMgb2YgcGxhbmVzLCBTRUwsIGJ1 dCBoYXZlIG5ldmVyIGZsb3duIG9uZSB0aGF0IGhhcyBubyBmbG9hdCwgaGlnaCBkcmFnLCBhbmQg YSBzdWRkZW4gZHJvcCBvdXQgb24gbGFuZGluZyBsaWtlIGEgUGlldC4gSSBrbm93IGl0J3Mgc2Fm ZSBpZiB5b3UgZXhwZWN0IGl0IGJ1dCBJIHN1cmUgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBmbG9hdCBsaWtlIGEg Q3ViLCBDaGFtcCBvciBldmVuIGEgQmVhdmVyLg0KICAgIEkgaGF2ZSBteSByaWJzIGNvbXBsZXRl ZCBmb3IgMzExQ0MgYnV0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8gYnVpbGQgYW5vdGhlciBzZXQgd2l0 aCBhbm90aGVyIHByb3ZlbiBhaXJmb2lsIGlmIEkga25ldyB3aGF0IHRvIHRyeS4gSSBtZWFuIG5v IGRpc3Jlc3BlY3QgdG8gQkhQIG9yIHRoZSBwdXJpc3RzLiBJZiB3ZSBkaWRuJ3Qgd2FudCB0byBp bXByb3ZlIGl0IHdlIHdvdWxkIGFsbCBiZSBidWlsZGluZyBhbmQgZmx5aW5nIFdyaWdodCBGbHll cnMgYW5kL29yIEN1cnRpc3MgUHVzaGVycy4NCg0KICAgIENvcmt5IGluIDIzIGFib3ZlIExhIHdl YXRoZXI ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:29 PM PST US From: "Kevin Holcomb" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings The Cl/Cd/Cm airfoil data that I worked up is on the Piet page within my webpage (www.airminded.net). In short the airfoil is pretty good at generating both lift and drag, not much of a suprise there. I worked the numbers up more out of curiosity than out of the desire to change anything. Kevin www.airminded.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Conkling Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Didn't Kevin Holcomb do some stuff on the Piet airfoil using the XFOIL program -- about mid 2002 ?? Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:47 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 1/7/04 10:37:18 AM Central Standard Time, Isablcorky@aol.com writes: << I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. >> I suggest keep it the same airfoil for several reasons: 1. It's part of avaition history. 2. It works. 3. It allows you to use drag to advantage, especially in emergency landing, to do a precise short field landing. Several times this fall, I would stay in the pattern for an hour, 500' AGL on short final and just do steep slip down to maybe 50 to 80', maintain 60 mph indicated, low power setting, straighten 'er right up, spot a short field landing. Every landing is different, but it's a blast to explore the capabilities of sweet flying plane !! Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:39 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Kevin..... Where is the airfoil data on your website.... I've scoured for quite a while and have yet to locate it. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Holcomb To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings The Cl/Cd/Cm airfoil data that I worked up is on the Piet page within my webpage (www.airminded.net). In short the airfoil is pretty good at generating both lift and drag, not much of a suprise there. I worked the numbers up more out of curiosity than out of the desire to change anything. Kevin www.airminded.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Conkling To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: 1/7/2004 10:09:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Didn't Kevin Holcomb do some stuff on the Piet airfoil using the XFOIL program -- about mid 2002 ?? Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:22 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Not knowing anything about airfoil numbers the I think real question is how do the Piet numbers compare to Clark Y's, and other proven low speed airfoils? Anyone know of a website that has these numbers (and can tell me what they mean). Chris T. Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Holcomb To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings The Cl/Cd/Cm airfoil data that I worked up is on the Piet page within my webpage (www.airminded.net). In short the airfoil is pretty good at generating both lift and drag, not much of a suprise there. I worked the numbers up more out of curiosity than out of the desire to change anything. Kevin www.airminded.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Conkling To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: 1/7/2004 10:09:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Didn't Kevin Holcomb do some stuff on the Piet airfoil using the XFOIL program -- about mid 2002 ?? Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:47 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings To All, I took the time to draw all the Piet fittings in CAD but have found them to be just slightly different then what I need for my plane so I don't use them. I have not shared them out (and will not so don't ask) because I feel it might lead someone to believe you can make all the metal fittings ahead of time. Don't do this! Make your fittings fit your assembly. Thankfully, I found this out right before I ordered my fittings from Replicraft, who went under not a week later. I would have also lost money to him if I didn't get the parts and even if I did I would still have lost money because I bet they would not have fit my plane. That is when I decided to learn how to build my own metal fittings. It's not that hard but can be frustrating at times. Fortunately, there is enough to build so I could work on something else until I was ready tackle that problem piece again. MY OPINION BELOW DON"T READ IF YOU DON"T WANT TO HEAR IT: you have been warned. Van's Aircraft is able to produce pre-punched RV kits that fits together so precise that it's amazing. They can do this because every piece is cut and drilled by computer controlled machines that are capable of using the accuracy CAD affords a manufacturer. This type of accuracy is just not possible in our (my) garage. Even if all the plans were drawn in CAD I doubt your (my) building accuracy is THAT accurate. Honestly, your construction does not need to be accurate to the .01 inch. I have built model airplanes from comercially produced CAD drawing and they still have errors. Drawing in CAD does not make plans any better or worse. You still need to mesure where the part is going to fit and make the part fit the assembly. Try to keep the dimentions as close as possible to the plans but ALLWAYS make the part to fit the assembly. It's just thet simple. I feel there is no need to take the time to redraw the plans in CAD. The most helpfull things are pictures of assemblies and parts. These can be had by simply asking anyone on this list. I will freely shair pictures I have collected to all that needs them and I know others will too. To all you first time builders, of which I an one too, take the time to study the plans. All the information is on them even if it doesn't look like it at first glance. It is also helpfull to hafe the Flying and Glider Mag the EAA sells. Make you parts fit not to the dimentions on the plans but to YOUR plane. After awhile you will get comfertable with the plans and think they are adiquite. Tones of Piet's have been built from them so they can't be that bad. Just my 2 cents sorry for the length Chris T. Sacramento, Ca ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:07 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Fred click on the link for Pietenpol under the Golden Age Aircraft Page. It's right there Chris T. Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Weaver To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Kevin..... Where is the airfoil data on your website.... I've scoured for quite a while and have yet to locate it. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Holcomb To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings The Cl/Cd/Cm airfoil data that I worked up is on the Piet page within my webpage (www.airminded.net). In short the airfoil is pretty good at generating both lift and drag, not much of a suprise there. I worked the numbers up more out of curiosity than out of the desire to change anything. Kevin www.airminded.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Conkling To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: 1/7/2004 10:09:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Didn't Kevin Holcomb do some stuff on the Piet airfoil using the XFOIL program -- about mid 2002 ?? Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Auto Cad Pietenpol drawings Ken, Please keep this discussion on airfoil going. I feel the Piet's performance could be improved, especially landing. I have flown many types of planes, SEL, but have never flown one that has no float, high drag, and a sudden drop out on landing like a Piet. I know it's safe if you expect it but I sure would like to float like a Cub, Champ or even a Beaver. I have my ribs completed for 311CC but would be willing to build another set with another proven airfoil if I knew what to try. I mean no disrespect to BHP or the purists. If we didn't want to improve it we would all be building and flying Wright Flyers and/or Curtiss Pushers. Corky in 23 above La weather