---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/14/04: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:00 AM - Re: Piet information list (Rcaprd@aol.com) 2. 04:37 AM - full stall vs. wheel (Michael D Cuy) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: landings, airfoils, no snow (Lauritz Larsen) 4. 05:41 AM - Re: Landing Gear Location (John Ford) 5. 06:12 AM - Re: Buying spruce for AirCamper (At7000ft@aol.com) 6. 06:13 AM - Re: wing & fabic/paint weights (At7000ft@aol.com) 7. 06:17 AM - Re: Piet information list (At7000ft@aol.com) 8. 07:22 AM - Re: Landing Gear Location (John Dilatush) 9. 07:58 AM - Re: Buying spruce for AirCamper (dave rowe) 10. 08:09 AM - Re: Buying spruce for AirCamper (dave rowe) 11. 08:12 AM - taildraggers (Michael D Cuy) 12. 08:18 AM - Re: taildraggers (Steve Eldredge) 13. 08:27 AM - Re: taildraggers (John Ford) 14. 08:46 AM - Re: taildraggers (Michael D Cuy) 15. 09:12 AM - Re: taildraggers (Kent Hallsten) 16. 09:21 AM - Your local aircraft service centre (???) (Clif Dawson) 17. 09:22 AM - Re: taildraggers (Steve Eldredge) 18. 11:52 AM - Re: taildraggers (At7000ft@aol.com) 19. 12:32 PM - Re: taildraggers (Michael D Cuy) 20. 02:23 PM - Re: taildraggers (walt evans) 21. 04:15 PM - Re: taildraggers (Richard Navratil) 22. 04:43 PM - Re: taildraggers (Dave and Connie) 23. 05:13 PM - Re: taildraggers (Fred Weaver) 24. 05:51 PM - Re: taildraggers (dave rowe) 25. 05:56 PM - Re: Your local aircraft service centre (???) (dave rowe) 26. 06:03 PM - Re: taildraggers (Michael Conkling) 27. 06:04 PM - Re: Landing Gear Location (Michael Conkling) 28. 06:46 PM - Re: taildraggers (DJ Vegh) 29. 07:12 PM - Engine mount and tailfeathers (Andimaxd@aol.com) 30. 08:13 PM - Re: taildraggers (John McNarry) 31. 11:21 PM - Re: Engine mount and tailfeathers (Shawn Wolk) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:57 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet information list --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 1/13/04 7:11:56 AM Central Standard Time, Carbarvo@aol.com writes: << Unless I missed it, there's one addition I would like to see. When brakes are added to a Piet, some folks move the mains axis forward to reduce the tendency to nose over on heavy braking (mine have been moved forward 2.5" from the plans). We could include the dimension from prop hub to the axle....Whatta ya think? >> Carl, The datam on the Pietenpol is the firewall. I'll include you're suggestion in the 'Alterations' section of the Infomation Sheet. My split axle is in the plans location of 17" behind the firewall. I have brakes, for run up, and taxiing in tight areas - not to stop the landing roll out. If you move the axle forward, you place more weight on the tailskid / wheel, and it will not come up as quick on the take off run. Chuck Gantzer. 3 days in a row, of Piet wether !! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:29 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: full stall vs. wheel --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Group-- this is just an observation over the years--- I'm not good at wheel landings at all. I can do them, but I full stall my Piet 100 % of the time-- and after 350 hours, twice to Oshkosh and twice to Brodhead I've landed (especially at Brodhead last summer where they had the diagonal runway X-ed out) in some nasty crosswinds and never had a problem. Tons of aileron into the wind and a burst of power if you need it, but hardly ever so. Of course grass is more forgiving. I do wheel landings/touch/goes for fun on the grass on calm nights on one wheel then the other (try to be Bob Hoover in a Piet for a minute) but that's about it. Did the same in the Champ. I realize the rationale for doing wheel landings and keeping your speed up for aileron authority, etc, but if you full stall a Piet you are going slow enough on touchdown that if you have full aileron into it, keep the nose straight w/ the rudder, you won't go anywhere you don't want to. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:41 AM PST US From: "Lauritz Larsen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: landings, airfoils, no snow --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Lauritz Larsen" "tailhook incident" All the discussion about landings and scraping the aft tiedown ring brings back memories. I was a member and a CFI ot the Navy Flying Club at NAS Jacksonville. I was returning with a primary student in a Cessna 150 and in accordance with my instructions he was maintaining a nose high attitude at touchdown. At NAS Jax, the runways have carrier type arresting gear cables on the runway. We caught the # 1 wire and made an arrested landing in the 150; no problems other than the tie down ring was jerked out of the 150 and I had to pay to have it replaced. It does make for a short landing rollout. Lou Larsen in chilly (45degrees) central Florida --- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: landings, airfoils, no snow > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Hello, low and slow fliers; > > This post has no substance so if you are looking for something useful, it > ain't here. Hit now. I've been away for days and days and have > been catching up on all the digests since the new year. I felt I had to > comment on at least two things, the airfoil discussion and the landings > discussion. > > Airfoils- because I was involved in the development of the airfoil that was > specifically designed for the KR series of homebuilts. Not directly, but I > did some of the mop-up work on bringing the airfoil to the public (see the > story I compiled in Contact! magazine a while back). The KR is actually a > design that can wear the "NX-" numbers, being a design dating back enough > years, believe it or not. The original design uses the RAF48 airfoil, but > there are always those wanting to tweak and improve. Bottom line is that > it's just like the old beer commercial where the two groups incessantly > argue, "less filling! more taste!". Both are right, but neither wants to > give up their position. The new KR airfoil was developed by a graduate > student working at the University of Illinois-Urbana Champaign in the wind > tunnel, coupled with software analyses and CFD studies by various members of > the KRNet list. The new airfoil has flown and has met all of its stated > goals. However... many continue to insist that the KR be built to the plans > in order to be a true KR, and the design owner does not offer the option of > any other design nor officially recognize it (this despite the fact that > their 'poster child' KR-2S, built by Roy Marsh, uses the 23012!). I say, > give up the argument and let each side happily build and fly. It will make > for good fodder around the grill at Brodhead, make for interesting > competitions at fly-ins, and fuel endless discussions online and in the > hangar! Engineering be hanged, just read what Mr. Pietenpol said about not > bothering with improved airfoils... he tried many and found his to be best! > (And I'm a for real engineer myself!) I'd be curious to see who actually > builds an 'improved' Piet wing and flies it, but I'm not so sure I'd want to > be standing too close when he tells everybody it's a Pietenpol. A fight > will likely break out, scoffers will scoff, and "less filling! more taste!" > will echo across the picnic table for hours. > > On the topic of landings, I really appreciated the narratives on technique, > as well as Chris Bobka's comments about dragging the tiedown ring. I always > thought I'd get whipped big time by the FBO if they ever knew who was > scraping the tiedown ring on the 150's all the time. I converted several > rings to open hooks! Day after day of boring touch and goes in the pattern > at Laredo, I got to where I could put the mains down on any part of the > threshold I wanted to, or on any chevron or any part of the numbers... > although I must admit to putting them on the leading edge of the pavement a > time or two, which makes for a bit of an abrupt nose-down. My problem is > that I've always been the 95-pound weakling and my arms aren't gorilla > types. What little time I have in things like Senecas and turbo 206's > always led to sore arms the following day from having to hold that anchor of > a yoke back in my chest... my instructor was an old duster pilot who > insisted on full stall all the time, and it takes all the strength I have on > some of those planes. But like Chris and John and others said- it's good > training and leads to good technique. > > And my last topic- snow. There ain't none in south Texas! And for those > looking for Piets here in Texas there is an air museum up near New > Braunfels/Seguin that has a Scout as one of its displays. I still haven't > been over to see it... > > do not archive > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > _________________________________________________________________ > Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software - optimizes dial-up to the max! > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:53 AM PST US From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" I have two words in reference to rough fields, big engines and good brakes: Helio Courier. It's mains are practically under the prop, and if not for the extremely slow rollout I would bet it would be very exciting to land. I hope John Dilatush will be a Brodhead this year. I really would like to see his pimped-out Piet performing like a VTOL. :-) John John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:06 AM PST US From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buying spruce for AirCamper I used to teach taildragging in a Decathalon and a Super Cub and never had an experienced pilot take over 10 hours, may want to find a different instructor. 2) I'm a private pilot with about 200 hours, now working on a tailwheel endorsement. Although my instructor says I'm "almost there," it has taken a LOT longer than I expected (over 20 hours), and this in a Citabria which sounds like it's much easier to land/take off than a Piet by all descriptions I have heard. Should low total time and a long time learning to handle a taildragger deter me from building a Pietenpol, or will this seem like a distant problem in a few years when I'm ready to fly it? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:04 AM PST US From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing & fabic/paint weights Did you also need to move your wing back? Rick Holland DJ,,, I moved my corvair out 2 and a half inches and I'm sure glad I did. Besides my big butt not helping the w&b, it really gave me a little extra room from the firewall. It gets real crowded back there to boot. I know this is repetitious but don't ya just love that corvair engine? Man what a kick,,, your's really looks great. Carl ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:01 AM PST US From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet information list Hank - given this data how do you calibrate how hard you can press on the brakes at a given speed to avoid grazing? Rick H. OK, I'm going to stick my nose in once more. To be useful you need to know where the contact point of the tire is in relation to the CG in a level attitude. Sorry guys but all the other measurements don't help much from a nose over point of view. The other thing that is needed is the height from the ground to the CG. With those measurements you can calculate the nose over moment and with the tail force and arm you can calculate exactly how much brake you can use verses the airspeed. That is what tells you if you are going to have a "grazer" or a tail dragger. Hank J ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:51 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location ================================== John I'll try to be at Brodhead this year if I don't sell Mountain Piet first. A word of caution however, the turbo'd engine is only useful here at high altitude where I live and fly. At sea level the plane will only perform the same as any other 110 to 135 hp powered Piet. 45 inches of manifold pressure at 10,000 feet or 100 feet produces the same hp. John ================================= > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > I have two words in reference to rough fields, big engines and good > brakes: Helio Courier. It's mains are practically under the prop, and > if not for the extremely slow rollout I would bet it would be very > exciting to land. > > I hope John Dilatush will be a Brodhead this year. I really would like > to see his pimped-out Piet performing like a VTOL. :-) > John > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:51 AM PST US From: dave rowe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buying spruce for AirCamper <018b01c3da36$2e226100$d4ddf6ce@hjarrett> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe Don't want to profit from this, I'm too busy with the airforce, but if I can help someone and save them some $$ I certainly will. hjarrett wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > MAN! You should go into the kit parts business. Collect up and package all > the wood to build a Piet and sell for a huge profit. You would still be > beating the pants off the competition. Good deal for us and you. > Hank J > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dave rowe" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 7:08 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buying spruce for AirCamper > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe > > > > Silly question, but what part of the country do you live in? If you are > > in WA or Ore, you can do way better. My entire airframe cost for wood > > is under $400.00 Canadian. I should have plenty of leftover yellow > > cedar if anyone wants some for wing ribs, let me know. A local mill > > here lets me wander through and hand pick anything I want, so larger > > sizes can be had too. > > > > At7000ft@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com > > > > > > Not having a lot of experience dealing with Aircraft Spruce or Wicks > (yet) I was wondering if some of you veterans would give me your opinion on > this: > > > > > > Aircraft Spruce has an AirCamper spruce kit for $804. Since Wicks has no > equivalent kit I asked AS for the kit part list, (the contents matched that > of an Excel spreadsheet I have seen posted at this site) sent the list to > Wicks and they came back with a price of $1075. Then I added up the AS > prices for the list items and came up with around $1070. The AS rep said the > $804 price is discounted because its a kit, however the lead time is 1 to 2 > months. Wicks claims a 1 weeks lead time. > > > > > > I can't believe AS is discounting spruce this much and there must be a > catch, problem is I may need to wait 2 months to find out what it is. Has > anyone else ordered this wood kit from Aircraft Spruce before? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rick Holland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:32 AM PST US From: dave rowe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buying spruce for AirCamper --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe Agree, sonds like some profiteering to me. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:05 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy I personally know some tailwheel instructors are super-nit picky about signing someone off in a taildragger just because of liability reasons and that the person might be then renting that Cub or Citabria after checkout. Sometimes an instructor can be too casual and sign you off too early---case in point: A guy builds a Tailwind, gets a quickie checkout in a Cub and then on the second flight in his Tailwind he stall spins on takeoff. Saw it. Some people are just slow learners on tailwheels, others adapt more readily. The Citabria is really easy to see over the nose also like a Champ because you can fly it from the front seat. That's great for a while to get used to tailwheels, but then if you can for a Piet, ask the instructor if once you get good at the front seat if he'll let you fly from the rear seat to really see what it feels like. Course a Cub needs the pilot in the back--most models. More fodder. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers From: "Steve Eldredge" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" Mike, How is a stall-spin accident related to a tailwheel? Groundloop? Steve e. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy I personally know some tailwheel instructors are super-nit picky about signing someone off in a taildragger just because of liability reasons and that the person might be then renting that Cub or Citabria after checkout. Sometimes an instructor can be too casual and sign you off too early---case in point: A guy builds a Tailwind, gets a quickie checkout in a Cub and then on the second flight in his Tailwind he stall spins on takeoff. Saw it. Some people are just slow learners on tailwheels, others adapt more readily. The Citabria is really easy to see over the nose also like a Champ because you can fly it from the front seat. That's great for a while to get used to tailwheels, but then if you can for a Piet, ask the instructor if once you get good at the front seat if he'll let you fly from the rear seat to really see what it feels like. Course a Cub needs the pilot in the back--most models. More fodder. Mike C. == == == == ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:37 AM PST US From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" ..Back seat drivers! John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:11:59 AM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:43 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers du> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy >Mike, >How is a stall-spin accident related to a tailwheel? >Groundloop? >Steve e. Steve-- I guess the point is that this guy built a Wittman Tailwind and got a quickie checkout in a Cub that flies nothing like a Wittman Tailwind that he had just spend 7 years building and not flying. So he gets a tailwheel checkout and thinks he can fly anything with a tailwheel. Yikes ! I have flown a Corby Starlet and it was absolutely nothing like the Pietenpol or Champ---I mean totally different animal, but still a tailwheel airplane. Just like the back seat of a Champ or Citabria are much different than the front seats. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers From: "Kent Hallsten" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" I like this talk about taildraggers, as I need to get my endorsement someday. First, much more building to do. Back in my work history I spent lots of time driving forklifts, which steer from the back end. It took a little time to get used to that feeling of your butt moving before your front. But soon enough it came naturally and you can get in and out of tight spots and do things that a front steering vehicle could not do. By any chance would that help me in any way when I start training in taildraggers? Kent ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:13 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson (by way of Matt Dralle ) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Your local aircraft service centre (???) The case for auto engines. At least here in Canada e513035.JPG Parts and maintenance for your CAM can be found at your local auto service centre. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers From: "Steve Eldredge" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" Ok I understand the point and agree. Just didn't want it to get attributed to just being a Tailwheel airplane. Steve Eldredge -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy >Mike, >How is a stall-spin accident related to a tailwheel? >Groundloop? >Steve e. Steve-- I guess the point is that this guy built a Wittman Tailwind and got a quickie checkout in a Cub that flies nothing like a Wittman Tailwind that he had just spend 7 years building and not flying. So he gets a tailwheel checkout and thinks he can fly anything with a tailwheel. Yikes ! I have flown a Corby Starlet and it was absolutely nothing like the Pietenpol or Champ---I mean totally different animal, but still a tailwheel airplane. Just like the back seat of a Champ or Citabria are much different than the front seats. Mike C. == == == == ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:09 AM PST US From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com Very good point Mike. If you are going to fly a tamdem/taildragger you really need a Rear Seat checkout (with a front seat passenger with a big fat head) AND a taildragger checkout. I don't recall if I always had a taildragger checkout student fly some time from the back seat with me in the front. Rick H > The Citabria is really easy to see over the nose also like a Champ because > you can fly it from the front seat. That's great for a while to get used > to tailwheels, but then if you can for a Piet, ask the instructor if once > you get good at the front seat if he'll let you fly from the rear seat to > really see what it feels like. Course a Cub needs the > pilot in the > back--most models. > More fodder. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:50 PM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Rick H-----I had zero tailwheel time and bought 1/2 interest in a Champ with my older buddy from church. (he had many hours from the 1950's when I wasn't even around) The insurance required that I get 15 hours dual in the plane before I was legal to go solo. I had a friend who was happy to help me out for pizza and dinner now and then plus fuel and oil but we got bored after about 8-10 hours so he put in in the back seat and said, "ok.....now let's see what you are made of." We worked off of grass strips at first and in fairly calm winds and then he worked me up to winds, then finally winds with in the back seat. The door removed from a Champ (it's fine to fly it like that) is wonderful !!! (it also makes landings easier because like in the Piet your side vision is pretty wide open which helps keep you in line. Walt E. , Steve E. and others can attest to this---when I have a front passenger I ask them to either shift their shoulders to the far right or far left side of the fuselage. They don't have to duck down, just move some shoulder out of my line of sight and it does make short final and flare out more accurate. Sure helps with a broad shouldered passenger. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:33 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Mike, good suggestion! I'll try that. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers > Walt E. , Steve E. and others can attest to this---when I have a front > passenger I ask them to either shift their shoulders to the far right or > far left side of the fuselage. They don't have to duck down, just move > some shoulder out of my line of sight and it does make short final and > flare out more accurate. Sure helps with a broad shouldered passenger. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:30 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratil" I wouldn't worry about a bit too much instruction. When you send in your insurance application for your new Piet you will be dollars ahead with more than 25 hours in type. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > I personally know some tailwheel instructors are super-nit picky about > signing someone off in a taildragger just because of liability reasons and > that the person might be then renting that Cub or Citabria after > checkout. Sometimes an instructor can be too casual and sign you off too > early---case in point: A guy builds a Tailwind, gets a quickie checkout in > a Cub and then on the second flight in his Tailwind he stall spins on > takeoff. Saw it. Some people are just slow learners on tailwheels, > others adapt more readily. > The Citabria is really easy to see over the nose also like a Champ because > you can fly it from the front seat. That's great for a while to get used > to tailwheels, but then if you can for a Piet, ask the instructor if once > you get good at the front seat if he'll let you fly from the rear seat to > really see what it feels like. Course a Cub needs the pilot in the > back--most models. > More fodder. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:25 PM PST US From: Dave and Connie Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers <5.1.1.5.2.20040114114142.01761778@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> When I bought the Taylorcraft the insurance folks wanted 15 hours of dual for someone with 65 hours total and all of that in a 150. The first takeoff looked like a drunk weaving down the runway. We decided that I should yank it off the ground before I hit any lights. The last few hours consisted of lots of laughing in the headsets as we flew into every farmer strip around here. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 --- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:42 PM PST US From: "Fred Weaver" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" Love it.... So cool eh Dave? Now, don't you think the wing section would make a good Piet airfoil? Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave and Connie" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers > When I bought the Taylorcraft the insurance folks wanted 15 hours of dual > for someone with 65 hours total and all of that in a 150. The first > takeoff looked like a drunk weaving down the runway. We decided that I > should yank it off the ground before I hit any lights. The last few hours > consisted of lots of laughing in the headsets as we flew into every farmer > strip around here. > > Dave > N36078 '41 BC-12-65 > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:08 PM PST US From: dave rowe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe I think the key is to get a tricycle and peddle it around the neighborhood while sitting backwards. Make airplane noises while you do it, what the hell most people think we're nuts anyway!! Seriously, experience is the key, and practice, practice, practice. I never do the same type of landing or take-off twice, I always work on short-field, soft-field, etc. every time I fly. I still draw lines on maps and figure wind vectors too. Anything to keep my skills as sharp as possible, and gives me the excuse to fly as often as my wallet allows until the Piet takes to the skies. Kent Hallsten wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Kent Hallsten" > > I like this talk about taildraggers, as I need to get my endorsement someday. First, much more building to do. > > Back in my work history I spent lots of time driving forklifts, which steer from the back end. It took a little time to get used to that feeling of your butt moving before your front. But soon enough it came naturally and you can get in and out of tight spots and do things that a front steering vehicle could not do. > > By any chance would that help me in any way when I start training in taildraggers? > > Kent > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:24 PM PST US From: dave rowe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Your local aircraft service centre (???) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe I LOVE IT!! Yes I'm yelling. I just read the biggest auto-conversion bashing session I've ever seen on the Thorp newsgroup. They feel if it's not Lycoming, it shouldn't be in an aircraft. They also seem to firmly believe that horzontally-opposed air-cooled engines are the be all and end all. Guess that old Rolls-Royce Merlin was a big hunk of crap! Bombardier better stop their V-6 development!! "Clif Dawson (by way of Matt Dralle )" wrote: > > The case for auto engines. > At least here in Canada > > e513035.JPG > > Parts and maintenance for your CAM can be found at your local > auto service centre. > > [Image] ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:58 PM PST US From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Michael Conkling" When the time comes, I'll have to see if my 28 hours in a J-3 are still "useful" (in addition to getting some more current taildragger time!) My first solo was a long time ago! ;-) Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS --- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratil" > > I wouldn't worry about a bit too much instruction. When you send in your > insurance application for your new Piet you will be dollars ahead with more > than 25 hours in type. > Dick N. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:02 PM PST US From: "Michael Conkling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location My old copy (1965) of "Practical Lightplane Design & Construction" by Bill Fike listed the average landing angle as being 12 to 14 degrees -- with the fuselage level, the wheel axle was in-line with the leading edge of the wing (16 degrees down & forward of the CG point) -- for a "cub" like airplane with brakes. Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location To clarify John's post below, the 16.5 degree angle is with the tail up and the ship level fore and aft using the top longerons at the cockpit for leveling. chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dilatush To: Pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location ----- Original Message ----- From: At7000ft@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet information list Pieters, The proper location of the landing gear ground contact point is determined by the CG of the plane. The CG of the entire plane is a combination of the horizontal and vertical centers of gravity. From this point a line may be drawn to the ground contact point of the landing gear. The angle of this line is usually 16.5 degrees forward from the vertical if the plane is equiped with brakes, somewhat less if the plane has no brakes. It might be neccessary to increase this angle if the thrust line is high, so as to prevent nose over during run up and rough field operation. However, the heavier the tail load is, the more of a tendency for ground looping upon landing. On "Mountain Piet" this angle is about 12 degrees and this seems to work out OK, both for rough fields and no ground looping tendencies. The brakes won't hold the plane during run up, so this is not an issue. My tailwheel weight when the plane is leveled up is only about 9 lbs. I had attached the spreadsheet used for my plane, however it was too large for Matronics to accept, so it was bounced. If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to try and send it directly to you. Hope all this helps. John Dilatush NX114D Salida, CO ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:14 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" awwww come on! you used headsets in a Tcraft?!!! :-) DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave and Connie" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers > When I bought the Taylorcraft the insurance folks wanted 15 hours of dual > for someone with 65 hours total and all of that in a 150. The first > takeoff looked like a drunk weaving down the runway. We decided that I > should yank it off the ground before I hit any lights. The last few hours > consisted of lots of laughing in the headsets as we flew into every farmer > strip around here. > > Dave > N36078 '41 BC-12-65 > ---- > > --- > Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004 > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:35 PM PST US From: Andimaxd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine mount and tailfeathers Hello to all: My project is coming right along. The engine mount is welded straight, in other words no one inch down and no half to one inch right or left. We are using a cont. 75 HP. Should I mount the vertical tail fin an inch or so over to one side or is it worth messing with? Also do I need to have more incidence in the left wing to compensate for torque and P factor? Any constructive criticisms are welcome. I have seen them all ways. Let the debates begin... Thanks in advance, Max L. Davis Arlington Tx ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:04 PM PST US From: "John McNarry" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: taildraggers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John McNarry" I learned to fly (as much as I have 70 hours) in a PA12 sitting in the back seat plus some Cornell 18 hrs & Harvard 7hrs all dual time in the back seat. Had a lesson sitting in the front of a Citabria and found it harder as being on the axis of the yaw deviations from straight ahaead aren't picked up "by the seat of the pants" quite as soon. John Mc ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:08 PM PST US From: "Shawn Wolk" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine mount and tailfeathers My A-65 powered Piet has the top of the engine mount 1" longer at top. This was done by spacers at the engine mount/firewall. (1" bottom, 2"top) The tail isn't a standard Piet design or mount, but it's offset approx. 3/4" and its not enough. So a small trim tab was added to the rudder to compensate. The one piece wing was rigged with identical incidence on both sides. The tips have approx. 1.25" of wash. (this was measured in inches using an incidence jig) The plane will fly with the ball in the center for a long time in stable air. For you cold weather pilots out there. A pic of my Pietenpol won me a hat today on http://www.avweb.com . You just have to bundle up a bit to enjoy it. (it was mild, only -10C) It flew great on skis, and the air was smooth. Shawn Wolk C-FRAZ 1932 Pietenpol Aircamper C-GZOT Skyhopper 2